Short action Bumblebee, magazine length. These are loaded at 2.95" OAL.
.308 Winchester
- Thread starter Two Shoes
- Start date
I did that with 200.20x’s but used Winchester commercial brass and got pressure signs at 2650 from a 24” barrel. Accuracy came in at 2580 and was very usable until the temp dropped in the 30’s and I accepted that a 12” twist is not enough for this projectile.
A1-3. Same as the Darpa XM3, only with adjustable cheekpiece.
If you set up your rifle to take the correct detachable mags something like 2.990" MDT minus center plate, will feed through a standard Rem short action...available on line everywhere.
With a little inletting on your part, presto you too, can have the same setup.
This will help with the 200 gr and heavier to seat out past the ogive.
These are 208 Bergers at 2700 fps in $600 rifle build with a new Bartlein 5R 9 twist 22" barrel, bottom metal, magazine, and muzzle brake ....used parts on a trued Rem 700.
The rifle was a previous factory Rem LTR, with a shot out barrel.
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I've got a couple Alpha mags that'll take COAL's of that length (2.979"). But I don't know if Alpha is still doing business or if there are suppliers that have them???
I'm already setup for Hawkins Precision hunter extended mags. They have an internal length of 2.980"
A reduced load for H4895 or IMR 4895 under a Hornady 125 SST is your huckleberry for this. Shoot for a starting velocity of 2500-2600 fps, and a minimum impact velocity of 1900 fps at your maximum range.
They shoot soft and despite the reduced loads are often very accurate.
I was leaning towards a 140g. He was shooting a 140g 6.5 last season around 2550 and was doing great with it. This rifle will be about 2bs heavier so if I can get a good 308 load that keeps it similar, he should be good to go
Rob, as you know I shot F TR at a high level for many years. We long throated and single shot 200’s in 30-32” barrelsas fast as we could get groups with. Bullets loaded so long it was hard to get them to stay in the case sometimes. Everyone I saw try to go over 2700 fps ended badly. 2600 was right around perfect. At mag length those loads would of grenaded lots of actions
I say go 300wm if you want 300 WM velocities. Now I long load 300wm with 200’s and run 2950 fps with no worries
I got a couple boxes of the 168 sierra tipped bullets and so far so good, 44.5varget win brass 2.82" win primer supposed to try them on steel to 1000 tomorrow. So far the 169smk has been the best.
I want to settle on one bullet to shoot in my 308's, bolt gun and gasser. Not the same load, but the same bullet.
It needs to fly decent to at least 800 and kill pretty well also. Kind of leaves the the smk out of the picture. I've had good luck with the 178eld-m in my 20" bolt gun, but I feel I give up to much speed with the 16" in the LMT.
They both like hornady black with the 168Amax. The LMT really does well with it. Thinking about just going all in on the old school Amax.
Thoughts and opinions welcome.
It needs to fly decent to at least 800 and kill pretty well also. Kind of leaves the the smk out of the picture. I've had good luck with the 178eld-m in my 20" bolt gun, but I feel I give up to much speed with the 16" in the LMT.
They both like hornady black with the 168Amax. The LMT really does well with it. Thinking about just going all in on the old school Amax.
Thoughts and opinions welcome.
Is 168 ELDM not the obvious answer here? Can try out a box of the white box Match ammo and see how it shoots before committing.
It's funny, some people swear by the tipped Sierra's and some people hate them. I never saw anything to write home about in any of the Black Hills ammo loaded with them and the few I tried with handloads were nothing special.
I really am a Berger whore, however my current .308 bolt gun has a longer throat and most Bergers come in at .050-.100 off the lands even loaded at 2.95 OAL, so I found the 210 Sierra loaded at that length is right at the sweet spot.
I could never settle on one bullet for my 308s.
Too many twist rates from 12 twist to 8 twist barrels from 16" to 30" plus long actions, short actions, bolts and autos.
The new 169 and 177 SMKs have been good in the extreme barrel differences
from 16" AR 11.25 twist, the 9 twist 22" and the 8 twist 30" with the 177 gr SMK.
The 16" AR 10 also loves the 168 eldm at 2756 fps ave it provides 1/2" 5 shot groups in an ultra light 6 lb AR 10, without scope. So I tend to load the 168 eldm for it...but it shoots the 177 SMKs almost as good too.
Then I shoot the 230 gr and 250 gr Atips out of the 30" 8 twist, not appropriate for the 16" AR 10, but the 208 eldms at 2442 fps work in it, for a heavy AR 10 bullet load.
The performance differences are extreme between all these 308s so that's why so many loads and bullets...hybrid cases 30 " barrel 177 gr SMK over 3100 fps, and 3800 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.
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I'm getting 2550fps from a 20" barrel with 2000mr in a Lapua case and a 200.20x bullet. A full grain away from light ejector mark. 2.98" oal or perhaps a hair longer, didn't check other than BTO.
I'm too poor for bergers I stock up on the midwayusa blemished sales and then sort the bolt gun ones. They had a shitload of hornady 6.5mm for 20-22cents a pop not too long ago.
I've used the 130 Grain Barnes TTSX over 50 grains Ramshot TAC, Starline LRP Brass, and CCI 250 primers (all I had on hand at the time). Chrono'ed 2979 fps in a 20' barreled Rem 700 LTR. It is a devastating load on deer & pigs out to 200 yds or so.
For bolt gun loads weight and any oddball lengths it's not always necessary though, for AR15 and hunting loads I just make ammo
On hybrid cases, you'll need to trim after the first firing, as they lengthen quite a bit around .015" the first firing, then settle down after that, as the joint flattens out under a lot of pressure, adding to the length, making a super tight joint, where the dissimilar metals meet.
Remington 700 mostly in a variety of calibers and Ruger Precision Rifle action in 6.5 CM.
Savage and Weatherby are chambering for the 80,000 psi 7mm Federal BC, along with 10 other companies.
And BAT has been running some really high pressure loads in their actions.
Just something to be aware of. The steel case of the 7mm BC takes up more stress than a brass case would, reducing the pressure that the action need to withstand.
With hybrid cases, the pressure that the chamber walls have to withstand is pretty much the same as a normal brass case. Just you won't get brass flow into the bolt/ejector cut-out and primer pockets won't enlarge when running higer than normal pressure. I do believe that modern actions can safely take pressure above 65kPSI, I just do not know where the limit is.
My point being, "buyer beware". Few people I know have enough engineering knowledge to run their rifles at 80kPSI safely. Obviously.45-90 has some idea.
Personally I won't try to replicate steel case performance with hybrid cases.
With hybrid cases, the pressure that the chamber walls have to withstand is pretty much the same as a normal brass case. Just you won't get brass flow into the bolt/ejector cut-out and primer pockets won't enlarge when running higer than normal pressure. I do believe that modern actions can safely take pressure above 65kPSI, I just do not know where the limit is.
My point being, "buyer beware". Few people I know have enough engineering knowledge to run their rifles at 80kPSI safely. Obviously.45-90 has some idea.
Personally I won't try to replicate steel case performance with hybrid cases.
I love innovation as much as the next guy... Those are some HOT loads. Have you ever thought of pressure testing any of these? Have you checked for lug setback on your stock Rem 700 actions?
These loads are approaching 300 Win Mag velocities with a case that holds 48 gr of powder, versus the 300 Win Mag which holds ~82 or so. Despite the hybrid cases how do you avoid primer failures?
Running these hybrids the cases at 80k pressure shouldn't present a failure issue from all I've read. Good barrels can take that pressure, at least for awhile. My main concern is how many firings can the barrel take and keep from ringing as it seems constantly expanding the barrel beyond it normal expansion of typical ~62k max pressure the metal may not eventually spring back as much.
The thin body of the steel case would take only a marginally more pressure than a brass case...as they both release the bullet out of the case mouth and can be easily resized for reloading.
It's the solid steel case head and the solid stainless steel case heads that take more pressure than the brass case heads in the .200" length area where the case is not supported by any barrel steel and the action needs space for the extractor groove, as shown in pic of factory Rem 700 chamber.
The pressure too high the brass head expands and the primer falls out.
The steel and stainless steel case heads thake more pressure here...where it counts...the unsupported solid case head area.
It's the solid steel case head and the solid stainless steel case heads that take more pressure than the brass case heads in the .200" length area where the case is not supported by any barrel steel and the action needs space for the extractor groove, as shown in pic of factory Rem 700 chamber.
The pressure too high the brass head expands and the primer falls out.
The steel and stainless steel case heads thake more pressure here...where it counts...the unsupported solid case head area.
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Yes checked for lug set back when I first started several yrs ago...it's all be discussed on the Hide on other posts every aspect, and every question, of hybrid case reloading, proceedures used, pressure signs, etc.
This is where I'm at with this. I have no desire to run 80K psi loads through my action and barrel consistently, and if I'm not doing it consistently, I have no use for it.
There needs to be far more data made available on the stress this puts on the action and barrel over years of repeated firings before I would entertain making this a consistent load through one of my rifles.
I feel much the same. Besides, if one is after higher velocity and/or more energy delivered, there are plenty of calibers to choose from.
But, I can see where the military would have a particular interest in a cartridge and can deliver those things, especially an ability to better penetrate body armor, out of a shorter barrel in a gun that weighs less and less unwieldy than heavier guns. And that can be attractive to some hunters too???
Sure an extra 200fps isn't worth blowing your face off but it's seems this is the next evolution of the traditional cartridge system. Without the proper equipment which the average Joe doesn't have we have no idea where pressures are.
Perhaps 45-90 is well past 80k in some cases(pun intended) or right on the money in the high 70s or low 80s. I know a lot of guys are pushing brass well past 62k with hot loads and the effects are seen in brass. I find it amusing with guys at ELR matches getting stuck cases trying to squeeze too much velocity out.
I'll also state that the Sig Hybrid cases in my limited experience take almost an extra grain of powder to get the same velocity as my Lapua cases.
Bummer man. Fifth processing on the sig hybrid cases. RCBS competition dies.
What is the 5th processing? The 5th time you reloaded the same case? Or some forming proceedures on the first case?
You must always lube the cases enough, Lee Resizing Lube works good on these.
I have shot 8.6 Blkout high velocity, 6.5 CM and 308 cases 5 times with no ill effect. But there is a point where they must be discarded. Primer pockets have been holding up well.
You must relube everytime you put the case back in the die.
Removal of brass from die, with case head separation, has been explained on this site for those who reload hybrid cases.
I instruct beginners to use cheap Lee FL sizing dies til they get the hang of it without decapping / neck sizing stem.
So I picked up 100 of these and formed them to 308. The first few I mandreled up to 7mm then stuffed them in a hornady 308 die. I think I did twenty that way just to try a few for my initial loading.
The rest of them got lubed up with imperial sizing wax and crammed straight into the hornady 308 die. Just recently made the switch to the RCBS dies.
These initial 100 cases I bought are on their fourth firing, preparing for the fifth. Thats been the only one that has given any issue thus far.
Annealed and full length sized every time. Expander ball is polished down to about .304", barely drags when it comes back through the sized case. I use a Wilson mandrel to finish sizing the neck. Imperial lube only.
The rest of them got lubed up with imperial sizing wax and crammed straight into the hornady 308 die. Just recently made the switch to the RCBS dies.
These initial 100 cases I bought are on their fourth firing, preparing for the fifth. Thats been the only one that has given any issue thus far.
Annealed and full length sized every time. Expander ball is polished down to about .304", barely drags when it comes back through the sized case. I use a Wilson mandrel to finish sizing the neck. Imperial lube only.
Absolutely....I hybrid cases in every 308 based cartridge I own...not exclusively but depends on what I want to achieve.
Even the 6 Dasher pictured...
And its not for everyone, but it is available.
Hybrid cases are like any reloading endevor, there is a learning curve for everyone. Plus ya don't need to push every load to 80,000 psi. Powder burns well at high pressure and some excellent accuracy is available in the below full max loads.
Hybrid cases have more capacity than Lapua cases, so the velocity will not be the same with the same powder charge under the same bullet.
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I dint believe it would fail under pressure. I may have been stingy, stinge, stingey, stingee? With the lube or something. Yanked that sucker off on the return stroke.
Honestly I'm not sure you couldn't accomplish the same thing with alpha brass that the hybrids are getting me. I went hard on them at first but then I just settled on 45gr of varget under a 175-180gr bullet. Same load in lapua lrp brass leaves a pretty good ejector mark and is very compressed. Strangley enough, velocity is about the same.
I always mandrel up to .306" first ...then run the case through a 308 die, mandrel and neck turn the first time, anneal & resize to headspace.
Changing proceedures or even dies can and will often influence the outcome.
Here is what I made when I didn't relube the 2nd time in the and pulled the head off the case.
It's a 7/16" X 20 tap and bolt to pull the case out of the die. The cup is machined to fit the die and center the pulling process.
Its very close to breaking through the case and into the die if not centered.
So I put it in a collet and hit the jagged edges with a boring bar to leave a clean start, use milling machine or lathe for best results, and tap with a centering bar engaged in tap. Works good, save your die.
I am a fan of Alpha brass, it works very well in normal loads and even pushed to the higher pressures it holds up in my 6 Dasher.
But when I want maximum velocity performance I use hybrid cases...they have preformed well in a variety of cartridges I use them in.
The maximum effort LA 8 twist 308 has shot 230 Atips to 2728 fps, 250 Atips to 2515 fps, 200 SMK to 2952 fps but accuracy was around 2900 fps for a .715 BC bullet out of a 308, and the new 177 SMK .545 BC to 3126 fps.
The problem is powder availability, and powders in general. The powders that boost the velocity are not generally available today...especially those from Alliant.
Other powders will work but are not able to get the velocity boost needed to justify doing the hybrid case, in many instances.
Varget is one, it's an accuracy powder, that through the yrs has had a lot of variation in burn rate, and slow velocities from lot to lot.
Shot Varget in my 16" auto with 168 gr and velocities were all over the place, S/ D was like 54 fps, the worst powder ever shot it that 16" AR rifle.
Change to a ball powder 1/2" accuracy and single digit S/Ds.
it is what it is....
It's a 7/16" X 20 tap and bolt to pull the case out of the die. The cup is machined to fit the die and center the pulling process.
Its very close to breaking through the case and into the die if not centered.
So I put it in a collet and hit the jagged edges with a boring bar to leave a clean start, use milling machine or lathe for best results, and tap with a centering bar engaged in tap. Works good, save your die.
I am a fan of Alpha brass, it works very well in normal loads and even pushed to the higher pressures it holds up in my 6 Dasher.
But when I want maximum velocity performance I use hybrid cases...they have preformed well in a variety of cartridges I use them in.
The maximum effort LA 8 twist 308 has shot 230 Atips to 2728 fps, 250 Atips to 2515 fps, 200 SMK to 2952 fps but accuracy was around 2900 fps for a .715 BC bullet out of a 308, and the new 177 SMK .545 BC to 3126 fps.
The problem is powder availability, and powders in general. The powders that boost the velocity are not generally available today...especially those from Alliant.
Other powders will work but are not able to get the velocity boost needed to justify doing the hybrid case, in many instances.
Varget is one, it's an accuracy powder, that through the yrs has had a lot of variation in burn rate, and slow velocities from lot to lot.
Shot Varget in my 16" auto with 168 gr and velocities were all over the place, S/ D was like 54 fps, the worst powder ever shot it that 16" AR rifle.
Change to a ball powder 1/2" accuracy and single digit S/Ds.
it is what it is....
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I also mandrel up first (after a good annealing application) and then run them through my Forster FL .308 sizing die using plenty of Imperial Sizing Die Wax. Only had that one issue where one case head seemed to pull out from how it sounded and measured like I may not have used enough lube . On this first go around, headspaces were not as uniform as I typically get when sizing my Lapua brass, but I expect that'll change after the first firing forming.
Have you tried any AR-Comp at all?
Once I get my cases all fire formed, that's the powder I'll be trying since it has worked so well in my all brass cases.
This is what I experienced with Varget in 308 over the past few yrs.
Its not always the best powder in every rifle bullet combo... infact it does very badly in multiple 308s.
The 16" 308 AR 10 did not like Varget, even the 18" AR was not fond of Varget.
Switch to a ball powder it was magic, single digit S/ D and accurate.
.3 in 5 shot group, with junk primed LC brassed ammo with cheap 130 gr Speer.
A fluke? Not so the next 5 shots went into .4''.
Fired another 6 shots cause I pulled one same deal tiny groups, with w 748 and non match bullets in LC brass loaded on a Dillion progressive dumping the powder, no sorting anything.
Even surplus 540 Stick powder, a very cheap surplus out shot Varget in several AR 10s.
I don't use Varget much these days, as I did over 20 yrs ago in 308 Win ...it just doesn't do it in most cases for me these days.
So if your groups and velocity variations are too extreme change to another powder. This extreme powder doesn't always work, and lost its shine for me.
Its not always the best powder in every rifle bullet combo... infact it does very badly in multiple 308s.
The 16" 308 AR 10 did not like Varget, even the 18" AR was not fond of Varget.
Switch to a ball powder it was magic, single digit S/ D and accurate.
.3 in 5 shot group, with junk primed LC brassed ammo with cheap 130 gr Speer.
A fluke? Not so the next 5 shots went into .4''.
Fired another 6 shots cause I pulled one same deal tiny groups, with w 748 and non match bullets in LC brass loaded on a Dillion progressive dumping the powder, no sorting anything.
Even surplus 540 Stick powder, a very cheap surplus out shot Varget in several AR 10s.
I don't use Varget much these days, as I did over 20 yrs ago in 308 Win ...it just doesn't do it in most cases for me these days.
So if your groups and velocity variations are too extreme change to another powder. This extreme powder doesn't always work, and lost its shine for me.
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I have not tried AR Comp.
I use 2000MR with success for lighter bullets 150 gr to 200 gr, and RL 17 for 175, 176, 177 gr, and others like 230 Atip.
The 2000MR is easier to obtain than RL 17.
AR comp appears good top velocity with 125 and 130 gr, but falls off after 168 gr according to this manual it comes out last in the 168 gold dot for velocity. But good in the 168 match.
Here it Max's out a 100 fps slower than than 2000MR under regular pressure loads.
But that only means it will not be super fast, but it may be fast enough and accurate enough for your needs to make a perfect load for you...so you'll just have to try it.
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It's been several years since I've used 2000MR in my .308. Yes, I got good velocity and found a couple good loads, but I stopped as I was not getting the consistency I look for due to wide range of temperatures I shoot in here in AZ.
I've also got some RL17 that I've used for 185 Jugs that also would perform quite well, but had the same kind of problem with temp sensitivity.
I don't live in Arizona, but spent a summer in Tuson.It's been several years since I've used 2000MR in my .308. Yes, I got good velocity and found a couple good loads, but I stopped as I was not getting the consistency I look for due to wide range of temperatures I shoot in here in AZ.
I've also got some RL17 that I've used for 185 Jugs that also would perform quite well, but had the same kind of problem with temp sensitivity.
So temperature sensitivity never bothered me here. It's a none issue.
The temperature won't change 20° by the time I load them to the time I shoot them most days.
And temperature is adjustable here 10,000 ft elevation just 60 miles away...in 30 miles the temperature usually drops 10 to 12 degrees in the summer. So I don't shoot in 90 plus temperatures. And always shoot in a stand of trees shaded and comfortable.
I shoot mostly in a 30 degree span summer to winter, 55 to 85 degrees, and don't go in extreme temperature conditions which are rare.
I used H4350 the most temperature stable powder in the 308 not looking for temperature stability but accuracy in the long barrel long action with an 8 twist.
308 long action 8 twist
200 gr SMK, Lapua cases LR, Win primer 48.0 gr H4350, 3.175" COAL.
Velocity 2681 fps ave
Group 10 shots .699"
Also used H4350 with the 230 gr SMK, & 225 ELDM.
Another powder is 6.5 Staball with 208 to 230 gr Atip, for a fairly temp stable ball powder. It works with heavy bullets and hybrid cases pretty well.
Ya need a 9 twist to properly stablize some of the heavier bullets.
If you can run 208 gr bullets 6.5 Staball may help ya out in Arizona with hybrid cases.
308 long action 8 twist
200 gr SMK, Lapua cases LR, Win primer 48.0 gr H4350, 3.175" COAL.
Velocity 2681 fps ave
Group 10 shots .699"
Also used H4350 with the 230 gr SMK, & 225 ELDM.
Another powder is 6.5 Staball with 208 to 230 gr Atip, for a fairly temp stable ball powder. It works with heavy bullets and hybrid cases pretty well.
Ya need a 9 twist to properly stablize some of the heavier bullets.
If you can run 208 gr bullets 6.5 Staball may help ya out in Arizona with hybrid cases.
