Kahles vz ZCO

carbonbased said:

@oldrifleman, you are acting very odd.

@762 ULTRAMAGA thanks for your report on the ZCO 527 vs NF 735 FOV. I didn't know the NF had more FOV hmmmm. I've missed that, I guess, but then again I haven't really compared every single spec of the Tier 1 scopes as I cannot afford them right now (two kids in college).

I've been a bit fixated on flare resistance due to my typical shooting conditions (I know that's a little weird). ZCO, March, and NF are particularly good in that area (according to my research from first-hand reviews…sorry!).

Also, about this:

The links I have provided typically contain first hand experiences. Perhaps you can link to one that isn't? I certainly could've made a mistake. And I think it's indisputable that any faint criticism of ZCO somehow generates a groundswell of diffuse general anger.

God only knows why full-grown men care so much about the inanimate objects they purchase.

Also, people recommend things all of the time that they haven't had direct experience with, but have read/heard glowing reports about? I am honest about it and try to explain why I recommend what I do.

I am certainly less useful than a fellow that has direct experience with a product (like you), for sure, but I try to link to first-hand experiences.

I mean, what do you think I'm trying to do? What is my nefarious plan? Are you implying I say "buy this thing because you guys say it's awesome [see reports]", but I really mean "don't buy the thing because I've also read some smaller issues that have been largely resolved" wink wink nudge nudge???

What kind of retarded plan is that? lol

@CSTactical / Richard, I don't know why you're acting the way you are. Perhaps there is a good reason…you've hinted at lawsuits or threatened lawsuits? Maybe something has made you super-duper suspicious.

But understand that I am just some rando prairie dog shooter. One that really digs into research.

I think you are doing what you feel is right. But realize there is a significant fraction of people that wish you'd just stay above the fray. You are, I think, the only sales guy on SH that gets down and dirty. Like, a lot. You really don't want to sully yourself with us pigs. We're gross.

Now, Frank Green of Bartlein often contributes super-valuable info about cleaning bores, barrel steel, etc, yet he never, ever toots his own brand's horn or gets involved in barrel debates. That would be just inappropriate.

It's seriously unbecoming for a rep to constantly interject themselves into a forum debate environment (vs. just providing barrel specs, like Frank Green). Imagine a group of dudes having a discussion at a bar about sandwiches and a guy with a Subway Sandwich placard over his chest walks up and proceeds to constantly interject opinions about the superiority of a certain sandwich brand. I mean…yeah.

Selling a product automatically reduces one's credibility because of the incentives. In other words, due to the very nature of your job, you have an inherently inescapable conflict of interest. That is not unique to you. Nothing you can do about it.

From the bottom of my heart, I think you mean well. You remind me of my brother, who is very brand loyal (and very loquacious, like you, and frankly, like me). When he worked for Coke, he went ALL IN. Coke garage fridge, Coke coffee table, the dude couldn't shut up about Coke etc etc.

But you are killing the very thing you love, man, by acting on this forum like you do. Yes, some people love you (obviously!!!) but they are going to buy only so many scopes. You can do better, man. I know you can.

I'm still confused about all the other stuff I've listed elsewhere lol

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Lowlight said:

Man that, this is a lot to read, I am not sure what I am supposed to comment on...

I love Zco, I think it is the best scope on the market currently, but with that said, we are honestly splitting major hairs, like majorly.

Talking to NF the question of Marketing came up, and I said, you can't market NF anymore, they are too good without being flashy. They just work, and very good quality vs cost, not a lot of fluff built into their pricing. They are utilitarian, they work as advertised and breaking them is very difficult.

Kahles I like, I visited the factory in Austria, but feel overall I lost a little with the company in general. I place that fact on the PRS as they are very deep with Kahles and don't like me. So while i was very tight with Kahles when Robert was there, after they restructured and he moved to Zco my time went that way. I will say, owning a few Kahles scopes, I have not bought a new one since Robert left even though I find them excellent scopes.

Zco is everything right the first time, there is no disposable skus, (skews). I feel the 8-40x is the best in class out there we have today. It's a smart progression too, 2-10, 4-20x, 5-27x, & 8-40x. The perfect line up with the right features and beyond useable reticles.

Regardless of you choice with a lot of these Tier One Optics, if you showed up on the line with any one of these, nobody is gonna say, why did you buy that ? More will say how do you like it when i save up that is what i want too. with any of them... I'm a big blue fan too, I use my Zeiss every bit as much as my Zco, I'm a Z - Scope guy.

@Rob01 tell em Rob

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roostercogburn98 said:

I wanna move my 420 to my rimfire so I will actually use it more. I feel like an assclown putting it on a CZ 457 in a manners stock though.

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CSTactical said:

You shouldn't! Plenty of my customers have $10,000+ rimfire setups

- Richard

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carbonbased said:

So, a dude has to respond to being called a liar, right? So that’s the only reason I’m back.


I also can’t help but note that @koshkin hasn’t popped in to say I am wrong about his relationship with the ZCO owners proper (not including Richard/@CSTactical, who, afaik, are resellers).

But you are, no doubt, correct that he would rather sit this out. Nobody likes a too-hot steam-bath.

So, here’s a couple time stamps in one of his livestreams in which he mentions their spat. It involved FOV fudging, and that’s why he is going on about the Vortex and ZCO’s FOV. PLEASE, contact him if you don’t believe me or want more detail.

1:02:00

Above, he does say “ZCO makes EXCELLENT scopes” right there too, btw, a sentient that I share because I’ve read lots of positive ZCO reviews. Imagine that. Reading reviews, passing on links to reviews. Positive or negative.

Here’s another timestamp in the same vid:

1:45:17

I’m not speaking for koshkin nor am I his spokesman or good buddy, but I admit I have had a pleasant telephone convo with him once at some point about an unrelated matter.

ZCO seems to make great scopes, Richard seems like a nice guy, and CSTactical receives near universal praise as a seller. In some of the links I provided about ZCO problem reports, if it was a physical scope issue the problem was invariably quickly resolved.

I hope you can see I restrained myself greatly in this thread in order to remain cordial. Why I chose to finally debate this issue is to preserve the ability for people to actually discuss the positives and negatives about ALL gear, despite brand passion.

See you around and take care.

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koshkin said:

The reason I have not commented is that this was a long voluminous conversation that did not look like something I should spend time to read through carefully.

I do not fully understand what was the genesis of the original disagreement any more than I understand where it went afterwards.

Figuring out both sides of the story would take time I am not willing to spend.

Perhaps even more importantly, I have been pretty much living out of a suitcase lately and sick as a dog for weeks now. I am tired, worn out and very limited in terms of what I am wiling to care about.

I am at the airport finally heading home for a few days. I have a PRS match to shoot in May and BOTC in June. I'll be focusing on those as time allows.

ILya

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