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Rifle Competition Events Cleaning for Competitions

DeathBeforeDismount

DeathBeforeDismount

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Nov 20, 2021
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#1
Everyone and their mother has a different cleaning regime. Different products, different process and different definitions of what cleaning is.

For many years my cleaning process for precision rifles has been follow boretech instructions. Maybe do a cycle or 2. Gun shoots well again and is good for 100-300 rounds before next cleaning.

Then I got a borescope. And I realized how much hard carbon builds up in the grooves , especially in the first 10 inches of a barrel. I suspect I am not really cleaning the barrel fully each time and just adding layers of hard carbon and copper. When I clean I am stripping most of the copper and leaving in carbon? Maybe.

Now what really matters is how it shoots. Is the gun predictable? Does it hold zero , velocity and shot group size over a 250 round weekend?

I am not so much interested in your cleaning regime as in your philosophy on cleaning. I am positive with the right chemicals I can strip this shit out, but do I really need to?

And it goes without saying the accuracy demands, round count and requirements for something like a PRS shooter is much different than F class or Benchrest.

Do most of you feel like getting all the loose shit out of the bore is cleaning? Do you think you need to strip it down to steel to be clean? What have you experienced performance wise doing different methods?

I recently went back to Sweets 7.62 since its a much more effective solvent than Eliminator or C4, as well as using oversized brass brushes (6.5 for 6mm). It seems to pull more shit out but the brushes also wear out super fast. I might get 4-5 cycles of wet patch/scrub with brush before the brush is wore out and i feel little resistance in bore.
 
#2
I am right there with you. I have usd Hoppe's and Thorro-Clean until last week. Finally tried the Boretech cleaner. Why? I Thorrocleaned before a match and ended up off all day. Didnt get even close untul 6 stages in. The boretech seems to get the job done. Especially if I let it sit wet for 30 min. Took the gun out today, only took 5 fouling shots to snap back. Will try for the next 2-3 match preps and see if sticks.
Routine - I am following the boretech instruction with a 30min dwell time.
 
#3
I have heard better shooters than me say they burn a barrel out without ever cleaning it. While I personally clean with Wipe Out or some other light solvent every couple hundred rounds knowing some people get by just fine doing a lot more and others doing a lot less has made me think it's not that important. That's my philosophy on it.

I do finish with a lightly oiled patch followed by a dry one as I have rust show up in weird places and am worried (paranoid) condensation or something will get in the bore and ruin it.
 
#4
My philosophy: clean to get all of the carbon out, especially the ring just ahead of the neck in the chamber which leads to higher pressures and precision loss. consistency is key. If you think about it, starting with a clean carbon-free bore is a baseline for accuracy. With a dirty barrel, where is your baseline? If dirty carbon-filled barrels were the key to accuracy, BR shooters would never clean. But the best BR shooters clean after each string.
 
#5
IME carbon rings is only an issue with certain powders. I have never even seen the start of one across over a dozen barrels using H4350. How do you know there is no carbon in the barrel! Borescope?

I would bet probably 90%+ competitors have a ton of hard carbon in the first 10 inches of their barrel.
 
#6
I would say we need to differentiate between competitors and intended use of rifle. You are probably right about PRS shooters. They don’t need the precision level of F-Class or BR. I don’t mean this in a demeaning way because some PRS stages are at an unknown distance and error in ranging outweigh the need for ultra precision. In this regard PRS is more difficult. F-Class and BR are entirely KD with smaller targets which puts a premium on ultra-precision. I expect a PRS shooter could get away with not cleaning for several hundred rounds while that would give a BR shooter a heart attack.

Hunting rifles are another extreme. My hunting rifles (primarily deer and coyote) are cleaned maybe every other year and just with a solvent. These rifles are shot infrequently. Serious Varmint hunters are a different breed and their cleaning methods are similar to competition shooters.
 
#7
PRS is pretty much KD as well. The ukd stuff is not part of it anymore. Do you can range all the targets before you shoot, and most MDs are really good about providing the distance and target size.

I totally get what your saying though. There is an argument for as accurate a PRS gun as possible to ensure you aren't dropping points when conditions aren't perfect and I agree. Over 1000 shots a .25 gun is going to get you more points than a .50 gun, but it's hard to articulate or prove since there are so many variables. It may be a handful of shots but depending on your skill level that could or could not matter.

I clean every 2-300. Shoot 2 one days or a 2 day match and then "clean". The definition of that cleaning is kind of the idea behind the thread.
 
#8
DeathBeforeDismount said:
PRS is pretty much KD as well. The ukd stuff is not part of it anymore. Do you can range all the targets before you shoot, and most MDs are really good about providing the distance and target size.

I totally get what your saying though. There is an argument for as accurate a PRS gun as possible to ensure you aren't dropping points when conditions aren't perfect and I agree. Over 1000 shots a .25 gun is going to get you more points than a .50 gun, but it's hard to articulate or prove since there are so many variables. It may be a handful of shots but depending on your skill level that could or could not matter.

I clean every 2-300. Shoot 2 one days or a 2 day match and then "clean". The definition of that cleaning is kind of the idea behind the thread.
Click to expand...

Agree. Also in PRS you could be kneeling, standing behind a barricade, or in some other awkward position after running to the stage with elevated breathing and heart rate. I’m too old for that, I shoot F-Class. But if was young and shooting PRS I would put much more time in practicing stages than cleaning barrels and hours in my anal reloading methods.
 
#10
DeathBeforeDismount said:
IME carbon rings is only an issue with certain powders. I have never even seen the start of one across over a dozen barrels using H4350. How do you know there is no carbon in the barrel! Borescope?

I would bet probably 90%+ competitors have a ton of hard carbon in the first 10 inches of their barrel.
Click to expand...

“How do you know there is no carbon in the barrel! Borescope? “

Sorry, missed this. Yes, a borescope is the only way to be sure.
 
#11
I started using iosso and a mop for my last step in cleaning and scooping the barrel to make sure it's perfectly clean before a match or basically anytime I fire more than 50 rounds. I'll also run a few patches of c4 after day one of a 2 day. I noticed not only better consistency but my barrels last longer. I also feel confident when I show up to a 2 day that excessive fouling isn't a issue
 
#12
I strive to do 250 with most cartridges. JB bore paste on a wrap jag 2x, then patch it out with bore tech eliminator.

If im lazy bore tech eliminator on a nylon brush, scrub end to end, add more eliminator and repeat. Let it sit for 10min and I’ll patch it out with a few wet and dry.

I used to go back in with a bore scope but the results from these processes proved effective.

I can get away less regimented cleaning on my 308, 223 and 300wm. For the 6, 6.5, 260, 300nm I am pretty religious with 250-300.
 
#13
Alot of what people think is hard carbon is actually just heat and chemical discoloured steel. Harmless and does not affect accuracy or pressure in any measurable way.

If the black stuff in the first 10" does not come off with a proper sized bronze brush, it is probably not hard carbon.
1000070095.jpg
 
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#14
JerkyFreak said:
Alot of what people think is hard carbon is actually just heat and chemical discoloured steel. Harmless and does not affect accuracy or pressure in any measurable way.

If the black stuff in the first 10" does not come off with a proper sized bronze brush, it is probably not hard carbon.
View attachment 8699558
Click to expand...
That's a great point. I am still stripping carbon out by the time I stop but I also start to see more firecracking in the carbon as i get closer to bare bore. It does get hard to tell discolored steel from carbon with some of the borescopes.

I am of the thought, I don't want to strip it completely out, as my fouling will lay down in those inclusions and help smooth everything out. It usualy only takes 1 or 2 shots before I am back to velocity after cleaning. Sometimes that first shot is 50-100 FPS less. Send another than back to my expected velocity range.

What I did notice that over the course of a 2 day my velocity will start to creep up. I went from about 2990 to 2910 to 2925 over 2 days as the barrel got dirty. Still shot well but its one of the reasons you want to Zero/chrono at the end and beginning of every day. Also not a bad idea to throw the garmin on a stage it doesn't hinder you half way through the match. You can catch issues/changes before they become a problem.

I really need to start recording everything and see if different cleaning process/regime change how the barrel fouls over the course of a match. This shit is starting to feel like work ;)
 
#15
Wipe out... Let it dissolve rotate barrel 180 repeat...

Run 2 of the intensive pellets through a couple times especially in the first 10" as you have started.. You can reuse these at least a dozen times before they are shot

Then a simple patch on a jag till clean enough
 
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#16
Huskydriver said:
Wipe out... Let it dissolve rotate barrel 180 repeat...

Run 2 of the intensive pellets through a couple times especially in the first 10" as you have started.. You can reuse these at least a dozen times before they are shot

Then a simple patch on a jag till clean enough
Click to expand...
I agree, pellets make some work easier.

Pro shot makes a nicer VFG pellet jag than that weird VFG one. If you do use the VFG jag, I believe the instructions say to don’t use the little nut.


Here’s a trick I just discovered with pellets to get rid of a stubborn carbon ring.

I used either Rem 40x or blue JB paste and a regular pellet (not intensive) as I was starting with the least abrasive method. It works so well I didn’t have to step it up to the intensive pellets.

Anyway, here’s what you do. Use a pellet two sizes larger than your bore. For a 20cal I use a 6mm regular felt pellet by VFG (Tipton ones are UTTER TRASH btw). You’ll have to experiment…maybe just one size larger will work.

Get the pellet on a non-rotating rod (ideally). Apply the abrasive and make sure you don’t bounce it around the action’s inside (unless you like to clean) as you put it in the chamber.

Feel free to go back and forth in the throat if you want, but the real trick is to TWIRL the rod while you spin it clockwise. I don’t use a bore guide for this method as it allows me more angle for twirling.

This allows you to get more pressure and surface area of the felt/abrasive upon the carbon ring.

I was futzing around pumping the felt-abrasive in and out and spinning it and holy shit, the difference is night and day if you get the pellet in the right spot and just spin & twirl (don’t pump).

1748815407382.gif
 
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#17
This is my Seekins PH2 6.5 PRC before clean and after what I felt was a deep clean. This barrel has 355 rounds through it.

These rifles seem to open the groups up for 10-20 rnds after a deep cleaning.

There is something about these barrels that seems to react to the copper or something, making them look really dirty. This is basically how it looked when it arrived after just a few shots at the factory. Cleans up nicely but I don’t get to bare metal.

ETA: Used Boretech with losso nylon brush and standard VFG pellets.

 
#18
A 35fps increase over 2 days is not much at all. I would be really surprised if any other cleaning method will give better results. Unless you are shooting ELR the correction is minimal. Of course, as the barrel wears that will become more, but I do not think carbon alone is the problem.

My cleaning regime is very basic. Ballistol on a bronze brush. If I use a dirty powder I repeat this at least once. Clean and dry the chamber with a bore mop. One fouler the next day to return to normal POI.

I treat brushes as consumables that only last for around 4, maybe 5 cleaning sessions.

I do use the correct size brushes. For most efficient scrubbing I want the bristles to be as close to 90° to the bore surface. With an oversize brush the bristles bend to much and end up just dragging the bristles over the fouling and polish it.

Decopper with Boretec every 500 to 800 rounds when the borescope shows I have to. I'll only use Ilosso if the copper fouling is really bad. And that only happens after a few thousand rounds when the fire-cracking becomes severe.

1000070199.jpg

I am still OK with this, 650 rounds since last decopper.

I always clean before storage and I clean every two days on long competitions (150-200 rounds). Some of my friends haven't cleaned for 450+ rounds and they maintained accuracy the whole time. I do find stainless steel barrels fouls less and cleans easier that molly-steel barrels.
 
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#19
JerkyFreak said:
A 35fps increase over 2 days is not much at all. I would be really surprised if any other cleaning method will give better results. Unless you are shooting ELR the correction is minimal. Of course, as the barrel wears that will become more, but I do not think carbon alone is the problem.

My cleaning regime is very basic. Ballistol on a bronze brush. If I use a dirty powder I repeat this at least once. Clean and dry the chamber with a bore mop. One fouler the next day to return to normal POI.

I treat brushes as consumables that only last for around 4, maybe 5 cleaning sessions.

I do use the correct size brushes. For most efficient scrubbing I want the bristles to be as close to 90° to the bore surface. With an oversize brush the bristles bend to much and end up just dragging the bristles over the fouling and polish it.

Decopper with Boretec every 500 to 800 rounds when the borescope shows I have to. I'll only use Ilosso if the copper fouling is really bad. And that only happens after a few thousand rounds when the fire-cracking becomes severe.

View attachment 8700038
I am still OK with this, 650 rounds since last decopper.

I always clean before storage and I clean every two days on long competitions (150-200 rounds). Some of my friends haven't cleaned for 450+ rounds and they maintained accuracy the whole time. I do find stainless steel barrels fouls less and cleans easier that molly-steel barrels.
Click to expand...

I’m with you on brushes being consumables. In an ideal world, I would prefer to use them once. Economics dictates that I get 4-5 runs out of them. I do wash them with Dawn after use.

I don’t use bronze brushes.
 
#20
IMHO there IS such a thing as “too clean”, and I can tell when I overdid it by how many rounds it takes post-cleaning to get the barrel back to shooting…

If I take a barrel all the way back to bare metal it can sometimes take ~20+ rounds to get it back to speed, but if I’m not an animal and stop when it’s “clean enough” (almost back to bare metal, most crap gone but leaving the dark grey steel like @JerkyFreak mentioned), then it only takes a handful of rounds (5-10) to get things back to normal.

I’ve actually become a huge fan of using a borescope when cleaning (after swearing them off for years), but I do think it takes some trial and error to build up experience with what we are looking at in order to figure out what’s the right amount of “clean”.

Either way, I like to go into matches with a barrel that has ~20-30 rounds on it post-cleaning in order to know it’s fully stabilized so I don’t get weirded out by any surprises early in a match, a few patches of Boretech Eliminator between day one and day two seems to keep the carbon buildup in check as far as keeping the barrel from speeding up (knowing that stuff is mild and doesn’t do a whole lot besides turning patches blue and removing loose carbon).

Rolling this way, I can no longer blame the gun/barrel for a poor finish, as there have been no more surprises with speed/dope issues over a weekend of ~200+ rounds for me.
 
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#22
I change cleaning techniques as the barrel wears in. My 6 BR crossed over 1200 rounds at the last match. I noticed a dry patch was starting to drag more than it used to in the first 4-5 inches forward of the chamber after my usual C4 and brush routine. Under a bore scope I could see I had layering building, so I thoro-cleaned that area a little to smooth it out and the bore scope shows it is just about all gone but for the corners of the grooves. Velocity had built from 2720 to 2745 in those 1200 rounds and after this cleaning I am down around 2710. I'll be going to the range today to verify drops w/ adjusted data using the new velocity. The second objective will be to see if the velocity builds back up quickly or if it will be a slow climb.

So to answer your questions,
Do most of you feel like getting all the loose shit out of the bore is cleaning?
>For the most part, yes.

Do you think you need to strip it down to steel to be clean?
>Not unless "clean enough" isn't working.

What have you experienced performance wise doing different methods?
>I found that sometimes it's not the cleaning method but the powder that makes things screwy but for solely "changes due to cleaning" my experience has been a slight loss in velocity, usually around 10-15% from what it was before cleaning. Then as the barrel is fired it will slowly speed back up as it becomes more fouled.

If your groups go to shit, I feel that it's likely one of two things occurred.
1: The powder is slow for the caliber/bullet combo and the clean barrel is not currently building the pressure to give you the performance your used to yet.
2: Barrel may be near end of life and cleaning removed more than just fouling
 
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