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So, where do I go from here? .223 change in reload method.

mark5pt56

mark5pt56

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Nov 20, 2005
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#1
24" .223w, Hawkhill/737 build from Blue Mountain Precision. Muzzle, 419 adapter, Nomad 30 with Ebrake and ATS tuner, currently at "0"
I've had this a bit and can't leave well enough alone.
I did work a load with 24 grains of Varget, seated at 2.390 OAL using an old set of standard RCBS 2 die set, polishing the expander ball to give me best I can tell is .003 tension. Cases are unturned Lake City 04 cases. Annealed and dry tumbled, Hornady One Shot as lube, inside and out. Load was developed with suppressor on.

What I changed
Redding Type S Competition Die Set, Micro meter seater, .245 TN bushing, 21st Century .222 mandrel. Case prep-added brushing inside necks with bronze brush before and after annealing. Lubing was the same with One Shot. While at "2.390" OAL, using the ogive gauge and the seater, 1.88 CBTO+/- .001. I have to check "jump", have it written down. Measured outside neck of loaded on original at .246/.247(unturned brass)

Oddly, I called number 9 on each 10 round group, I did omit shot one from the "old load" as it was low and from coming off a string of PPU ammo, didn't affect grouping though, just the numbers.
Part of me thinks I wasted my money on the dies.
So;
try .221 mandrel?
powder charge tweak?
above and tweak tuner, although the numbers on ES/SD are higher.

 
#2
One thought, if you are going down the rabbit hole deeper.

I would switch to dry graphite lube, personal opinion no scientific data that I can cite though I have seen others on the hide say the same, wet lube can affect the powder drop into the case, powder sticking to the neck, etc. Enough of an effect to make a difference for you on target?? Only one way to tell but it's a pretty quick, easy and cheap method to test out.
 
#3
Oh-I dry tumbled again after the sizing, so no powder sticking in the necks. Caution used removing from the tumbler-by hand, no shaking, etc. I might do another batch and not brush inside. I know I must have less neck tension due to the velocity loss, hence thinking on the .221 mandrel. Other than the marked #9, the very top hole in the "old" load is #3 and the far right on the new is shot #1.
I checked some recent past numbers with my original load, maybe I got some lower numbers this time with ES/SD.
2706.6, 15.6, 56.9----2697.8, 14.1, 37.6
 
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#5
I thought about it, then I want to limit how deep I go, besides, I have an eight pound jug of Varget. I may fiddle with the neck cleaning and tweak the powder for now, maybe try the .221 mandrel.
 
#6
Just a suggestion, but those two groups are nearly identical in this test.

You would be better off shooting them farther to allow them to develop any evidence of a potential difference.

One of the critical differences between what most folks call "old 80 SMK" versus "new 80 SMK" is that the factory changed their tipping operations. Those tips accounted for about a 0.5 MOA POI shift at 600 yards for many of us, but it wasn't something you could detect at short range. So, depending on when your batches were made the tips would be different.

If your goal for this shooting was stated, you would also get batter advice.

Are you going to try to compete in a particular game, or just casual or informal shooting?

Of the questions you posed, you wouldn't be able to tell if there was any effect with the type of test you just ran. BTW, that isn't bad news since both are fine groups and in my opinion ready to go to distance to see if there is any real difference.
Good Luck and in for the range reports.
 
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#7
Okie, for my purposes, the old and new is just for the loads themselves, all bullets are the same, recent purchases.
Just casual shooting, 100, 200, 300 and 600/628. Yeah, I plan to load some more and shoot at 200/300 to see vertical better, maybe at 600 if mirage isn't bad. I did originally test the "old" aka original load at 200/300, picking the length and least vertical. That was .75 grouping at 200 and 1.785 vertical/group at 300 with 5 shots each.

I was looking at my data at 300, my CCB was 2662.6 with a center hit on the 6" plate, next rounds on it as well with 2706.6 average, doesn't seem like 300 is long enough some times to check ES on loads but wind and mirage is more of a factor to check things further out.
 
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#8
mark5pt56 said:
Yeah, I plan to load some more and shoot at 200/300 to see vertical better, maybe at 600 if mirage isn't bad.
Click to expand...
I will suggest that you wait till you shoot at least 600 yards to evaluate the vertical.

To give you a perspective, one of the stages of XTC (Across the Course Service Rifle) is the 300 slow prone. Any decent Service Rifle that has a good bbl can hold the 10 with high X count at that distance with sketchy 77 grain factory loads. Given your gun with rests, with well made 80 SMK, you will likely only see a 1.5" group unless the wind changes part way through your string.
 
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#9
Are you using any crimp?

I polish expanders to -0.004 and then use the 0.002 mandrel.
My crimp is "slight" 1\8th of available full crimp.
You can dent a wood loading bench trying to get the bullets to move.

Other than the expander "mod" dies are standard Lee and the Sinclair mandrel. I don't measure neck od or id anymore on any caliber it's always 0.002 neck tension and I don't run any neck turn barrels.

I get sub moa with very modest equipment, 223, 308, 6.5g even with 300 blk subs since I started that routine. (That 300 blk was a big surprise when I got it to 0.90 consistently)

I run nu finish wax in my dry tumble and it has enough lubricity that I don't lube further, no cold weld with 2 year old ammo noted.

A good shooter with better than my barely mid grade equipment should have no problems dropping group sizes running the necks like that . Some of mine dropped 20% and let me identify other concerns.
 
#12
Nothing flattened, no pressure. When I worked the "old" load using the polished eball, I had 23.8/9 in there, the 24 was the most consistent. Appears the same here, just lower velocity. I think I might order a .221 mandrel from 21st CI and try it, then run it.
 
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#13
I would be just guessing, but it looks like you are ready for a 600 yard test, and I would include 23.5 to be sure you are not leaving anything on the table.

Nothing wrong with your results so far. If your expectations are getting calibrated, then being inside 3/4 MOA at 300 is good, and it looks like you will soon be inside 0.5 MOA with some more practice.

Not that you need much more help, but this video was pointed out to me by some of the rookies at the clubs and they wanted my opinion of his talk. They already knew my answers since Keith sounded exactly like many of the high ranking folks at the club. You can skip most of this, but it is still worth it for many of the others reading here.

Good Luck and in for the range reports for 24 v 23.5 at 600 yards.

 
#14
Thanks and will watch--I haven't done tuner adjustment yet. While we can all improve, it's mostly all the reloading work, I've shot this at 628, zero issues on 6" plates, just trying to tweak the loads some with the new dies.
 
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