What defines an MPVO?

VargmatII

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Hello all.

We all know the definition of an LPVO. But what about an MPVO?
Does the magnification have to start at 2x? What is the maximum magnification that an MPVO can have? Where do you draw the line?
What about max objective size?

Anyone have ideas on this?

Im thinking that an MPVO could be all the way up to a 4-16x scope, but it has to have a smaller than 50mm objective?

What say the Hide?
 
 
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I found that thread but the topic line threw me off, lots of good info in it! Thank you.
 
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It’s hard to say exactly what one is, the name is an extension of LPVO.
Loosely an LPVO is a scope with a low end magnification of 1x, or in some instances up to 1.5x.

I think a MPVO has a low end magnification of 1.5-3x, but there are a bunch of scopes you wouldn’t class as an MPVO with a low end of 3x (some 3-12s but mostly your average 3-15, 3-18 etc).
With in reason the top end magnification should be 12x or less, but a March 1.5-15 is and MPVO and a S&B PMII 3-12x50 is not an MPVO.

I’d say the best explanation of what an MPVO is:
A scope intended to replace and LPVO, that trades true 1x for better performance on higher magnifications, primarily by having a larger objective lens and an optical system not limited but requiring true 1x.
 
It’s hard to say exactly what one is, the name is an extension of LPVO.
Loosely an LPVO is a scope with a low end magnification of 1x, or in some instances up to 1.5x.

I think a MPVO has a low end magnification of 1.5-3x, but there are a bunch of scopes you wouldn’t class as an MPVO with a low end of 3x (some 3-12s but mostly your average 3-15, 3-18 etc).
With in reason the top end magnification should be 12x or less, but a March 1.5-15 is and MPVO and a S&B PMII 3-12x50 is not an MPVO.

I’d say the best explanation of what an MPVO is:
A scope intended to replace and LPVO, that trades true 1x for better performance on higher magnifications, primarily by having a larger objective lens and an optical system not limited but requiring true 1x.
That is a pretty good definition.

How about the Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42, would you consider it to be an MPVO?
 
That is a pretty good definition.

How about the Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42, would you consider it to be an MPVO?
Personally no, I think the mag range is too high and it's too heavy.

I don't think many people would replace a 1-6/8 LPVO with one, and use the rifle for the exact same purpose, so fails to meet the threshold (that I created 5 minutes ago).
 
The category is for helping shoppers decide, it doesn't define the scope itself. Asking what scope is an MPVO is putting everything in the hands of marketing, rather than in the hands of the optics engineers. I think that's the wrong approach. Yes I understand marketing, I worked in an alpine ski shop for 7 yrs in my late teens to mid 20s and had to sell boots skis bindings to people who came in flustered by marketing. That was in the 1970s-80s and marketing is way more overwhelming today.

If I remove my Mr Picky hat I say, it is any scope that has a range from above 1x to about 35x, depending on multiplier used. Big multiples have huge top ends relatively speaking. Most seem to hover around 3-18, 4-16, 2.5-15. If you want it for precision shooting it should have a functional ruler reticle and zero-stop dialing turrets, and solid parallax/side focus.
 
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I would say a low end of 1.5-3x. High end doesn't matter the capabilities of having that low end are what makes it an MPVO.

OTOH, I could see a counterargument that it is more about your use case. If any variable optic is effective at engaging targets at close range in dynamic shooting, it could be classed as an MPVO if it is not an LPVO. For example I have a PA 4-16 slx with their r-grid reticle. That reticle allows rapid and effective target engagement at much closer ranges than most 3-X or 2-X scopes on the market today. It is a little more usable in that role than the Optika6 Mrad1 3-18 which is one of the better 3-X scopes on the market for that role, and yet I would say the Optika6 is right on the edge of being considered an MPVO.

Edit: also, the objective size itself doesn't really matter for the definition, but if we are going by use case the weight definitely matters, and objective size is a big factor in how much a scope weighs. The reason I would class the Optika6 3-18 as being an edge case for an MPVO is that at 31oz or so, it effects the handling of the weapon in a way that diminishes its ability to be used for dynamic shooting in a way a lighter optic would not.
 
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IMHO an FFP MPVO is combined with a red dot so anything with less than a 4X on the low end is kinda like an LPVO heavy unless it has a 5 - 8ish multiplier.. The MPVO objective size is determined by your preferred cheek weld so the height of your mount needs to keep the scope above your rail because an MPVO ( and LPVO ) is an AR optic of either caliber. I’ve gone with 4-32X50, 4.5-22X50, 3-24X42, 2.5-20X50, etc on a 14.5” suppressed AR and those work well for me and my old eyes but if I could find a nuclear bright FFP MPVO ( LPVO Heavy ) with at least 12x on the top then I could make that work.
 
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IMHO, defining a MPVO as optimally;

1.1x to 3x for the lower magnification to have the larger FOV.
Between 38mm to 50mm objective.
Relatively compact scope.
Relatively lightweight scope.
A reticle that can be seen well at lowest magnification but not intrusive at highest magnification.

Bonus features;
Wide angle lens system.
High end glass.
Daylight bright illume.
Side focus parallax.
Dual Focal Plain/DFP.
Lower profile locking elevation turret, and locking or capped windage.

Why companies are making 34mm or larger tube'd MPVO's is something I don't get because we don't need tons of travel.
Why thin-ish reticles.
Why high magnification ratios like 10x, which sacrifice Image Quality/IQ.
Why, why, why.....
 
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Hello all.

We all know the definition of an LPVO. But what about an MPVO?
Does the magnification have to start at 2x? What is the maximum magnification that an MPVO can have? Where do you draw the line?
What about max objective size?

Anyone have ideas on this?

Im thinking that an MPVO could be all the way up to a 4-16x scope, but it has to have a smaller than 50mm objective?

What say the Hide?
First of all, MPVO/LPVO/HPVO etc are just terms used within the industry. Most of us would understand that a Low Powered Variable Optic (LPVO) in today's standard would start at 1x on the magnification ring and provide a true 1x - both eyes open experience to the user that includes a reticle that works for quick acquisition at 1x. So, if you ask practically anyone with knowledge in the shooting world "what is a good LPVO" you will get answers for optics that all start at 1x. This definition makes it pretty easy for manufactures to satisfy the market. However, with a Medium Powered Variable Optic things start to get a little fuzzy, just like the responses above indicate. This is why myself and many others have tried to better define or narrow down the definition rather so manufacturers get a better understanding of what we're asking for. For the most part, this is a First Focal Plane (FFP) world, so we'll leave the plethora of SFP scopes out of the equation (they have their place but not here as an MPVO candidate).

For years we've had 3-9's, then 3-12's and 4-16's, then the 5x erectors came along and gave us 3-15's and 4-20's and 6x erectors gave us 2.5-15's and 3-18's et al, I'll stop there for now. And now we're starting to get the 2-10's and 2-12's, but something is lacking as in the example of the Steiner H6Xi 2-12x42 and that's the reticle, even Leupold struggled before the CMR-Mil became available quite a while after the introduction of their Mark 5HD 2-10x30. So, it's not so much that we have a lack of viable optical designs that "could" work as an MPVO, we have a lack of manufacturers understanding the type of reticle that makes an MPVO usable. By and large, the answer has been staring them in the face - put your LPVO reticle in the MPVO scope, well, that is as long as it is a decent LPVO reticle like NF's FC-DMx mil - I have often advocated for NF to offer this reticle in the NX8 2.5-20x50 scope, even better if NF introduced a 1.5-12x42 in the NX8 line but I digress.

The point is, the primary use case of an MPVO is to be put on a semi-automatic gas operated rifle which is one of the most popular sporting rifles in the USA today. Many gas gun shooters have now recognized the limitations of the LPVO especially for longer distance work and even our SF operators have recognized the benefits of piggybacking an RDS on top of their LPVO's so the natural progression indicates something slightly higher powered than an LPVO that is designed to excel optically at the higher magnification rather than at the bottom but it has to have a reticle that is effective at the bottom magnification.

So, when you ask, can a 4-16x42 be considered an MPVO I would generally say no due to the reticle and the length of the scope. Granted, I think the NF ATACR 4-16x42 is one of the best mid magnification optics on the market today for gas gun shooters wanting to reach out and touch some steel at distance, but the reticle is not designed for low magnification work and so it struggles in that area. I also think the scope is a bit too long and bottom magnification a bit too high for clip on use and so we enter yet another criteria of the MPVO - shorter body and low enough magnification for effective thermal clip ons.

If manufacturers would spend a little more time to get the reticle right there would be a lot more interest in their designs. ZCO and March have likely the best reticles for MPVO right now, but these are high dollar scopes. Athlon has had a great reticle in their Helos 2-12 though, some think it's a little too thick, and now Swamp Monkey or whatever that company is has also introduced the CCP cousin to the Helos filling the "cheap" niche for this market. We need something in that $1500 - $2k gap and also something in the $1k market that punches above its class optically, these are the two areas that have the most potential IMHO.
 
Do people consider a 4-16x to be a HPVO? The NF 4-16x ATACR is only 0.6" longer than the S&B 1-8x that people used to drool over for a LPVO. Its only 0.3" longer than the Steiner 2-12x and Athlon 2-12x which are apparently almost perfect MPVO. If they put the 4-16x ATACR on a diet, is it still too unwieldy to be classified on a MPVO?

For me, MPVO isn't going to be used for room clearing nor am I going to be mounting the Hubble onto my rifle. I am expecting a red dot to cover the 1x side so give me 3x or 4x on the bottom end, and a reasonable top end <18x in a light (<24oz) short (<12") package. 3-12x is going to give me lighter weight and potentially better performance than a 2-12x. Less compromise on the reticle too...

The more this discussion occurs, the more I understand why manufactures aren't willing to take a punt.
 
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Under 30oz
Under 14"
Under 50mm Objective
Under 20x top end (likely as a result of the above)...but no less than 9 or 10x
NOT an LPVO (which would be defined by an optic likely with a 1/1.1x bottom end and certainly no more than 1.5x)
 
@C_Does has a great video comparing some scopes that he calls ipvo which I think fits in the mpvo definition. His definition of mpvo at the beginning of the video is a little bit different.

Ipvo
Minimum magnification between 1.1x - 2.9x
FFP or SFP (If the other features exist)
Locking/capped Windage turret
Exposed Elevation turret with at least a Zero stop, lock preferred
Illumination

 
@C_Does has a great video comparing some scopes that he calls ipvo which I think fits in the mpvo definition. His definition of mpvo at the beginning of the video is a little bit different.

Call it what you will... if anything its probably better defined by what it is NOT. Not an lpvo for general purpose. Not a behemoth 5-25 that I'd put on my best precision bolt gun/boat anchor. Rather, the intermediate compromise for my gas gun/shorty/hunter.

As per the "IPVO" Already been through this overly-nuanced bullshit with guns. "Its not an SPR, it's a RECCE, maybe its a DMR". I don't much care for the name either as medium is arbitrary but it's a time saver. Too many handles is just fucking annoying though.
 
Call it what you will... if anything its probably better defined by what it is NOT. Not an lpvo for general purpose. Not a behemoth 5-25 that I'd put on my best precision bolt gun/boat anchor. Rather, the intermediate compromise for my gas gun/shorty/hunter.

As per the "IPVO" Already been through this overly-nuanced bullshit with guns. "Its not an SPR, it's a RECCE, maybe its a DMR". I don't much care for the name either as medium is arbitrary but it's a time saver. Too many handles is just fucking annoying though.
Agreed on the too many definitions. I am going to be getting the athlon ares btr g3 2.5-15 this black Friday for my 18" spr profile barrel ar.
 
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First of all, MPVO/LPVO/HPVO etc are just terms used within the industry. Most of us would understand that a Low Powered Variable Optic (LPVO) in today's standard would start at 1x on the magnification ring and provide a true 1x - both eyes open experience to the user that includes a reticle that works for quick acquisition at 1x. So, if you ask practically anyone with knowledge in the shooting world "what is a good LPVO" you will get answers for optics that all start at 1x. This definition makes it pretty easy for manufactures to satisfy the market. However, with a Medium Powered Variable Optic things start to get a little fuzzy, just like the responses above indicate. This is why myself and many others have tried to better define or narrow down the definition rather so manufacturers get a better understanding of what we're asking for. For the most part, this is a First Focal Plane (FFP) world, so we'll leave the plethora of SFP scopes out of the equation (they have their place but not here as an MPVO candidate).

For years we've had 3-9's, then 3-12's and 4-16's, then the 5x erectors came along and gave us 3-15's and 4-20's and 6x erectors gave us 2.5-15's and 3-18's et al, I'll stop there for now. And now we're starting to get the 2-10's and 2-12's, but something is lacking as in the example of the Steiner H6Xi 2-12x42 and that's the reticle, even Leupold struggled before the CMR-Mil became available quite a while after the introduction of their Mark 5HD 2-10x30. So, it's not so much that we have a lack of viable optical designs that "could" work as an MPVO, we have a lack of manufacturers understanding the type of reticle that makes an MPVO usable. By and large, the answer has been staring them in the face - put your LPVO reticle in the MPVO scope, well, that is as long as it is a decent LPVO reticle like NF's FC-DMx mil - I have often advocated for NF to offer this reticle in the NX8 2.5-20x50 scope, even better if NF introduced a 1.5-12x42 in the NX8 line but I digress.

The point is, the primary use case of an MPVO is to be put on a semi-automatic gas operated rifle which is one of the most popular sporting rifles in the USA today. Many gas gun shooters have now recognized the limitations of the LPVO especially for longer distance work and even our SF operators have recognized the benefits of piggybacking an RDS on top of their LPVO's so the natural progression indicates something slightly higher powered than an LPVO that is designed to excel optically at the higher magnification rather than at the bottom but it has to have a reticle that is effective at the bottom magnification.

So, when you ask, can a 4-16x42 be considered an MPVO I would generally say no due to the reticle and the length of the scope. Granted, I think the NF ATACR 4-16x42 is one of the best mid magnification optics on the market today for gas gun shooters wanting to reach out and touch some steel at distance, but the reticle is not designed for low magnification work and so it struggles in that area. I also think the scope is a bit too long and bottom magnification a bit too high for clip on use and so we enter yet another criteria of the MPVO - shorter body and low enough magnification for effective thermal clip ons.

If manufacturers would spend a little more time to get the reticle right there would be a lot more interest in their designs. ZCO and March have likely the best reticles for MPVO right now, but these are high dollar scopes. Athlon has had a great reticle in their Helos 2-12 though, some think it's a little too thick, and now Swamp Monkey or whatever that company is has also introduced the CCP cousin to the Helos filling the "cheap" niche for this market. We need something in that $1500 - $2k gap and also something in the $1k market that punches above its class optically, these are the two areas that have the most potential IMHO.
It reads like you would give a couple of thumbs up to the March F 3-24-42 with the TR1H reticle ( specifically that reticle ).
I’ve been saving up for this but have recently come across a post that read the illumination is not useable in bright daylight conditions ( I’m in W Texas, NM, AZ ).
Have you looked through this March with that reticle?
Is there an MPVOish model out there that has a nuclear bright reticle at high magnification ? ( I have an ACRO on the top scope ring so I’m not too worried about anything on the low end but if the March TR1H is daylight bright then that reticle should be all kinds of useful on 3X ).
TY
 
Do people consider a 4-16x to be a HPVO? The NF 4-16x ATACR is only 0.6" longer than the S&B 1-8x that people used to drool over for a LPVO. Its only 0.3" longer than the Steiner 2-12x and Athlon 2-12x which are apparently almost perfect MPVO. If they put the 4-16x ATACR on a diet, is it still too unwieldy to be classified on a MPVO?

For me, MPVO isn't going to be used for room clearing nor am I going to be mounting the Hubble onto my rifle. I am expecting a red dot to cover the 1x side so give me 3x or 4x on the bottom end, and a reasonable top end <18x in a light (<24oz) short (<12") package. 3-12x is going to give me lighter weight and potentially better performance than a 2-12x. Less compromise on the reticle too...

The more this discussion occurs, the more I understand why manufactures aren't willing to take a punt.
While I don't disagree with anything you've said I still don't think the 4-16 ATACR is an MPVO.

But the important thing is, it really doesn't matter what you call it, or what "counts as a MPVO" if it works for you just use the damn thing.

We just used to have scopes.
Then the term LPVO got invented, to easily identify scopes that have a true 1x. At the same time LPVOs took of in popularity they basically killed off all of the 2-10 type scopes.

These scopes that were almost extinct got called MPVOs because:
-they fill a similar role to an LPVO
-it's easier to say MPVO, than saying a 1.5-3x ish to 10-15ish scope that's not too heavy and actually has a useful reticle

If people really need more scope categories, it'd be something like:
-LPVO
-MPVO
-DMR (ATACR 4-16, MK5 3.6-18)
-Cross over (arguably same as DMR)
-High power
-Other (fixed 10x, weird March scopes)
 
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It reads like you would give a couple of thumbs up to the March F 3-24-42 with the TR1H reticle ( specifically that reticle ).
I’ve been saving up for this but have recently come across a post that read the illumination is not useable in bright daylight conditions ( I’m in W Texas, NM, AZ ).
Have you looked through this March with that reticle?
Is there an MPVOish model out there that has a nuclear bright reticle at high magnification ? ( I have an ACRO on the top scope ring so I’m not too worried about anything on the low end but if the March TR1H is daylight bright then that reticle should be all kinds of useful on 3X ).
TY
the March is the best scope on the market if you pretend it's a really good 3-18
 
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While I don't disagree with anything you've said I still don't think the 4-16 ATACR is an MPVO.
Thats the funny part: I am not sure if I think it is a MPVO either. lol

My hunt for a "MPVO" started when I wanted a small step up from my NF 2.5-10x24 on a light compact bolt gun. Now that is an outlier at 18oz and 10" long... I was willing to sacrifice the package for a little more magnification, maybe FFP and adjustable parallax depending on the max magnification. Everything compromises HARD.

The most common trend is the 2x or 2.5x bottom end is kind of pointless. I might as well pay a 7oz weight and 0.3" length penalty to use the NF 4-16x over the Steiner 2-12x, which is functionally a 4-12x with their reticle... Now percentage wise, the ATACR 4-16 is an obese cow compared to the NXS x24... Leupold's mk4hd 2.5-10x was interesting, but its longer than the 4-16x ATACR which appears to be a huge disqualifier in the "What is a MPVO" game.
 
The most common trend is the 2x or 2.5x bottom end is kind of pointless. I might as well pay a 7oz weight and 0.3" length penalty to use the NF 4-16x over the Steiner 2-12x, which is functionally a 4-12x with their reticle... Now percentage wise, the ATACR 4-16 is an obese cow compared to the NXS x24... Leupold's mk4hd 2.5-10x was interesting, but its longer than the 4-16x ATACR which appears to be a huge disqualifier in the "What is a MPVO" game.
Reticle really is the make or break of a good MPVO (see Glassaholics poll on MPVOs) and probably is what separates an MPVO from a DMR scope.

An MPVO without a usable reticle is just a bad DMR scope.
 
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An MPVO is what used to be standard magnification for general use and hunting. Lots of folks cried for ever higher magnification so they could use up to 18 power of their 35 or 36x scope.
Then they all bitched about not having scopes suitable for general use, as the magnification was way to high, so we are back down to reasonable levels for the majority of what we use rifle scopes for.
 
First of all, MPVO/LPVO/HPVO etc are just terms used within the industry. Most of us would understand that a Low Powered Variable Optic (LPVO) in today's standard would start at 1x on the magnification ring and provide a true 1x - both eyes open experience to the user that includes a reticle that works for quick acquisition at 1x. So, if you ask practically anyone with knowledge in the shooting world "what is a good LPVO" you will get answers for optics that all start at 1x. This definition makes it pretty easy for manufactures to satisfy the market. However, with a Medium Powered Variable Optic things start to get a little fuzzy, just like the responses above indicate. This is why myself and many others have tried to better define or narrow down the definition rather so manufacturers get a better understanding of what we're asking for. For the most part, this is a First Focal Plane (FFP) world, so we'll leave the plethora of SFP scopes out of the equation (they have their place but not here as an MPVO candidate).

For years we've had 3-9's, then 3-12's and 4-16's, then the 5x erectors came along and gave us 3-15's and 4-20's and 6x erectors gave us 2.5-15's and 3-18's et al, I'll stop there for now. And now we're starting to get the 2-10's and 2-12's, but something is lacking as in the example of the Steiner H6Xi 2-12x42 and that's the reticle, even Leupold struggled before the CMR-Mil became available quite a while after the introduction of their Mark 5HD 2-10x30. So, it's not so much that we have a lack of viable optical designs that "could" work as an MPVO, we have a lack of manufacturers understanding the type of reticle that makes an MPVO usable. By and large, the answer has been staring them in the face - put your LPVO reticle in the MPVO scope, well, that is as long as it is a decent LPVO reticle like NF's FC-DMx mil - I have often advocated for NF to offer this reticle in the NX8 2.5-20x50 scope, even better if NF introduced a 1.5-12x42 in the NX8 line but I digress.

The point is, the primary use case of an MPVO is to be put on a semi-automatic gas operated rifle which is one of the most popular sporting rifles in the USA today. Many gas gun shooters have now recognized the limitations of the LPVO especially for longer distance work and even our SF operators have recognized the benefits of piggybacking an RDS on top of their LPVO's so the natural progression indicates something slightly higher powered than an LPVO that is designed to excel optically at the higher magnification rather than at the bottom but it has to have a reticle that is effective at the bottom magnification.

So, when you ask, can a 4-16x42 be considered an MPVO I would generally say no due to the reticle and the length of the scope. Granted, I think the NF ATACR 4-16x42 is one of the best mid magnification optics on the market today for gas gun shooters wanting to reach out and touch some steel at distance, but the reticle is not designed for low magnification work and so it struggles in that area. I also think the scope is a bit too long and bottom magnification a bit too high for clip on use and so we enter yet another criteria of the MPVO - shorter body and low enough magnification for effective thermal clip ons.

If manufacturers would spend a little more time to get the reticle right there would be a lot more interest in their designs. ZCO and March have likely the best reticles for MPVO right now, but these are high dollar scopes. Athlon has had a great reticle in their Helos 2-12 though, some think it's a little too thick, and now Swamp Monkey or whatever that company is has also introduced the CCP cousin to the Helos filling the "cheap" niche for this market. We need something in that $1500 - $2k gap and also something in the $1k market that punches above its class optically, these are the two areas that have the most potential IMHO.
This nails it.

I have a Helos gen2 2-12x on an AR for games that's awesome in terms of reticle and features.

That scope made "premium" would be amazing.

As is, the Helos doesn't suck at all for killing.
IMG_20241017_163102042_HDR.jpg
 
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I wonder if we're approaching this the wrong way.

We [the consumers of the industry or the industry itself] created a term "LPVO" to describe a unique style of optic whose intension and design are unique to traditional optics.

The mere acceptance of the term LPVO implied that there are HPVO's, right? But now we're in this conundrum where where a NXS 2.5-10 is seemingly not in the same class, nor does it have the same role as an ATACR 4-16, which is not similar enough to an ATACR 5-25, which is certainly different from the ATACR 7-35, etc...

So with these two otherwise arbitrary terms [LPVO & HPVO] and with loose ideas of what they're supposed represent, we've now demanded a further compartmentalization of concepts. Thus MVPO makes sense to attempt to finally organize this already chaotic ensemble of labeling.
But what do we put into the category of MVPO when we haven't even properly defined the former two categories?

My friends, are we traveling down the same path as the LGBT queers, hoping to define how many genders there are?

I worry that we're forced to call this one as a Miller Test and just say, "You know it when you see it." Or we may be doomed to mentally masturbate this topic into ad nauseam.
 
Asking a question which is what is your desired lowest magnification for a MPVO?

Too start I rarely use below 2x. In my case only when mowing down my plate racks at 12y to try to realize a time difference, but speed wise I'm seemingly the same speed at 1.5x and 2x as I am on 1x with my LPVO because it's more a training and timing issue than FOV issue. If anything the daylight bright CD's in my March 1-10 and 1.5-15 make the most difference when trying to go fast.

The other question, at what magnification and what application do you guys use low magnification for?
 
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Alot of words to say who gives a fuck.

Why are you worried about definitions on something that is undefined?

Does the scope work for you for the given application? If yes then use it if no then don't. It's really that simple.

This entire thread is an exercise in autism.
Well, in the grand scheme of things you are right, no matter how you define this, there is always overlap and a lot of subjectivity.

A while back I tried to to go through a classification of different types, but it is mostly to help me be consistent when I do my reviews.

For me, MPVO has to go down to low enough magnification to be reasonably usable with most thermal clip-ons, so I want MPVOs to have 2.5x or less on the low end and to be relatively short.

Last year, I tried to write it all down.


ILya
 
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My friends, are we traveling down the same path as the LGBT queers, hoping to define how many genders there are?
I worry that we may be doomed to mentally masturbate this topic into ad nauseam.
That escalated quickly….
LPVO’s can go on AR’s and Shotguns and can be FFP or SFP.
MPVO’s are FFP and have a red dot involved ( because apparently no one can make a MPVO with a nuclear bright reticle ) and go on an AR.
HPVO’s go on bolt guns and sniper rifles.
 
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That escalated quickly….
LPVO’s can go on AR’s and Shotguns and can be FFP or SFP.
MPVO’s are FFP and have a red dot involved ( because apparently no one can make a MPVO with a nuclear bright reticle ) and go on an AR.
HPVO’s go on bolt guns and sniper rifles.
What category does a SFP 2.5-10 fall in then or SFP 3-15?
 
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What category does a SFP 2.5-10 fall in then or SFP 3-15?
My bad being an FFP snob. Those ^^ are MPVO’s and I wish my old eyes could play better with the upper magnification on SFP’s because some of the SFP MPVO’s have red dot bright reticles that can be useful on the low end.
It always depends ( for me ) on the nuclear brightness of the reticle. If you can’t use 4X and below ( for any LPVO / MPVO ) on the bottom as a red dot ( like we used to do with an ACOG ) then you have to attach a ridiculously high or strangely angled RMR.
 
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For me an MPVO has to be 12x+. Ideally it would go up to 15 or 16x. If it's just a 2-10 you might as well use a 1-8 LPVO.

I use a Swarovski Z8 2-16 on my hunting rifle and it's perfect for all situations. A tacticool ffp version with a smaller objective would be ideal imho.
 
I disagree if you rarely use the 2x and tend to live at the 6x+. A lot of 1-8x are disappointing near 8x.
Not disagreeing because the Burris XTR2 1-8 I had wasn't great at 8x but I felt like 6x wasn't enough for my use case.

The two LPVO 1-10's I've owned aren't very good at 10x but better at 8x. It's kinda like the guy earlier in this thread that mentioned the March 3-24 is best if you use it below 18x, and similarly if I use my March 1.5-15 on 13x, though it's not bad at 15x whereas the March 1-10 on 10x doesn't pull off 10x well so I found myself using 8x more.
 
Thanks for replying.

Did your son feel like the HUGE .5" CD obscured his shot, JK.
HUGE CD really hindered me LOL. A couple of chunky ho bags shot within a few minutes of each other. Scope mag was 8X.

I think this one was at 240 yards. Neck shot facing me.
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I did not laze this one but somewhere between 180 and 200 yards behind the shoulder and out the arm pit.

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I use the hell out of my Helos. Only complaint is that I wish the glass was a little better for low light hunting.
 
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It reads like you would give a couple of thumbs up to the March F 3-24-52 with the TR1H reticle ( specifically that reticle ).
I actually did a review of that scope and that reticle a couple years back, you can click on the history link in my signature to see the list. As was mentioned above, the 3-24x52 makes a really good 3-20 and an excellent 3-18 scope, but IQ falloff above 20x is noticeable; however, this is an older design and I would love to see March make a High Master version of this scope. The TR1H was a reticle I recommended specifically for low magnification use and I love that reticle; however, the narrow FOV of the scope is a another limiting factor, outside of that it is a fine choice especially for the weight.