Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
Nope, not me either. I don't shoot well enough to actually shoot the difference.
Eddie
Nope, not me either. I don't shoot well enough to actually shoot the difference.
Eddie
- Thread starter karagias
- Start date
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
No i dnt shoot well enough to justifi the cost. I need to shoot more to get better lol
No i dnt shoot well enough to justifi the cost. I need to shoot more to get better lol
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
As most have already said, No would probably be the answer for .308 cal bullets. But I feel like you mentioned this only as an example and not to be held to the .308 cal family of cartridges. That being said, if you could prove a 20% BC advantage over the best .338 cal or .375 cal projectiles I think that you would definetly have some takers.
Taking your mechinical engineering prowess into the world of ballistics?
As most have already said, No would probably be the answer for .308 cal bullets. But I feel like you mentioned this only as an example and not to be held to the .308 cal family of cartridges. That being said, if you could prove a 20% BC advantage over the best .338 cal or .375 cal projectiles I think that you would definetly have some takers.
Taking your mechinical engineering prowess into the world of ballistics?
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
I'll be different. Assuming the accuracy was there, I'd shoot some in matches on shots where the wind is unusually difficult- shooting Herman at the Practical Marksman comes immediately to mind. 1100+ yards, odd swirling winds, and .308 only- yeah, I'd pay a dollar. It wouldn't replace my primary load though.
ETA: very interesting ring design, I can see how it would clamp more uniformly. Definitely thinking out of the box.
I'll be different. Assuming the accuracy was there, I'd shoot some in matches on shots where the wind is unusually difficult- shooting Herman at the Practical Marksman comes immediately to mind. 1100+ yards, odd swirling winds, and .308 only- yeah, I'd pay a dollar. It wouldn't replace my primary load though.
ETA: very interesting ring design, I can see how it would clamp more uniformly. Definitely thinking out of the box.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
Well OK then. That's 54 replies and I'm ending it here as 54 is divisible by three and it gives you guys a better chance at a free set of rings.
And the winners are: drum roll please...
from the 1st group of 18 - <span style="font-weight: bold">Sawmann56</span>
from the 2nd group of 18 - <span style="font-weight: bold">Sonic Crack</span>
from the 3rd group of 18 - <span style="font-weight: bold">Timelinex</span>
Congratulations guys. Send me a PM with shipping address, ring diameter, and height and I'll send the rings.
I'd like to thank everyone again for your participation.
I have some more information to share with you guys about some interesting work that has recently been done by another Hide member. I will add that to this thread tomorrow when I have more time. Stay tuned...
Well OK then. That's 54 replies and I'm ending it here as 54 is divisible by three and it gives you guys a better chance at a free set of rings.
And the winners are: drum roll please...
from the 1st group of 18 - <span style="font-weight: bold">Sawmann56</span>
from the 2nd group of 18 - <span style="font-weight: bold">Sonic Crack</span>
from the 3rd group of 18 - <span style="font-weight: bold">Timelinex</span>
Congratulations guys. Send me a PM with shipping address, ring diameter, and height and I'll send the rings.
I'd like to thank everyone again for your participation.
I have some more information to share with you guys about some interesting work that has recently been done by another Hide member. I will add that to this thread tomorrow when I have more time. Stay tuned...
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
AWESOME!!!! Thanks a ton Ted, Your rings are the cats meow!! pm inbound
AWESOME!!!! Thanks a ton Ted, Your rings are the cats meow!! pm inbound
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
sorry I missed the closing bell on this one.
Jeffvn
sorry I missed the closing bell on this one.
Jeffvn
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
So here is the additional information I promised yesterday.
I posed this question to everyone because of a very specific bullet.
Since about April of this year, I've been working towards the development of high performance target bullets with a Hide member who has a PhD in numerical methods as well as in depth knowledge of aerodynamics. Here is a picture showing our latest development.
Figure 1: Loaded 308 rounds with various bullets
Shown in Figure 1 are some loaded 308 Win rounds with a few different bullets. Closest to the camera are loaded 175 gr Sierra MatchKings, moving rearward, you have 155 gr Berger Match, the new 162.5 gr bullet, and finally 155 gr Sierra MatchKings. All loaded rounds have a COAL of 2.800”
This new 162.5 gr bullet is pretty cool. It was designed specifically for slower twist 308 rifles. Here is a list of all the good qualities of the bullet:
• The bullet weighs 162.5 gr
• It requires no special chambering considerations
• It needs only a 11.5 twist, or faster, to stabilize
• It has an averaged G1 BC of 0.565
• It is very tolerant of long throats (i.e. it jumps to the lands well)
• It is lead free
• Does not foul your barrel
• Achieves muzzle velocities of lighter, lead cored bullets
The downside is the price of the bullet. Due to the price of copper, the CNC equipment required to make the bullet, and the company's overhead and margins, a realistic retail price for the bullet is about $1. Hence the question that started this thread.
In regards to accuracy potential, here is a picture of a four and five round group recently shot at 300 yards.
Figure 2: 300 yard group
The target shown in Figure 2 was shot using my RPA prone rifle built by Jim Cloward of Lake Stevens, WA. Chambered 308 Win, I used this rifle to shoot NRA High-power competition back when I had time, and a life.
I'd like to respond to certain comments left by some members who kindly participated in this thread.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no, technology is not that backwards that some hidden trick could increase BC by 20% without adverse effects (instability) negating any advantage
when real testing occurred (like that done this spring on the 338 turned solid projectiles with the high claims/prices) the initial buyers would almost certainly be left holding the bags of their overpriced/ underperforming projectiles and looking the fool </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I see it, there probably <span style="font-style: italic">would</span> be those willing to pay $1 per bullet if, in fact, the 20% increase in BC were demonstrably true. Perhaps not many initially, but some.
The real question in my mind would be what is different about this projectile to give a 20% increase in BC, and what would that mean as far as reloading. A 20% gain in BC would be great, right up to the point you realized you needed a faster twist rate, different chamber specs, or it was extremely difficult to produce an accurate reload due to some inherent difference in the shape of the projectile required to get the higher BC. If that turned out to be the case, IMO such a projectile wouldn't be worth the cost, even if they were priced similarly to the others you mentioned.
On the other hand, I would be willing to bet that if all else were equal (ease of reloading, twist rate, chamber specs, etc.), a projectile that performed as described would find a large market quickly as the word got around. Unfortunately, there's really no way to gauge its potential without significantly more information than simply a 20% increase in BC. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, I would not pay 2x-3x more for a bullet with a 20% gain. The way I see it is why shoot a 308 that has the ballistics of a 300 win mag that cost more than a 300 win mag with traditional bullets. Also what special requirements would this bullet require with twist rate and chambers? </div></div>
The BC of this projectile is real. The BC was verified using a <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">properly</span></span></span> designed drop test so the 0.565 number is not an estimate like those published by other manufacturers. It is a measured value. The bullet has a high BC and is stable from a relatively slow twist, commonly available barrel without special requirements.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 71firebird400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, and I don't think many others would either. Just look at the current market share; not everyone shops bullets by BC- they're looking at things like cost and how finicky a bullet can be. In my experience, as BC goes up so does how picky the bullet is to load for. Berger's are already pushing the envelope for cost, so I really don't think an even more expensive bullet would be a good seller. </div></div>
This bullet has a high BC and is definitely not finicky to load for. It does not show the seating depth dependence like some other, very secant bullets do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steelhead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ran the numbers through my ballistic calculator and found this:
Elevation at 1000 yards gives you slightly better than 10% reduction in elevation adjustment. (32.9 moa to 29.5 moa)
Not that big of a deal.
However, if you look at windage, then you gain just over 25% better recuction in adjustment. (7.5 moa vs 5.9 moa)
In the computer model, it looks like the bullet would effectively mimic my 6.5 Creedmoor load. Of course real world testing would need to be done to verify. Interestingly the .30 cal load would beat my 6mm Creedmoor load in windage, but not elevation.
What is really impressive is the amount of energy that is retained with the 20% better bullet. 942 ft/lbs compared to 728 ft/lbs.</div></div>
I encourage you to run the numbers again. This time use the 0.565 BC, 162.5gr weight, and a faster muzzle velocity than a standard 175 gr projectile. You will find the wind difference is pretty substantial.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Will</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NO, not in 30 cal. can't be that much advantage. Will stick with Lapua 185 or Berger 175 </div></div>
Use a ballistic calculator and you will find that these bullets offer a significant advantage. Below is a wind drift comparison between 175 SMK and this new 162.5 grain bullet. At 1000 yards, wind drift for the 162.5 is 30% less than that of the 175 SMK. That's significant.
Figure 3: Wind Drift Comparison
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Red_SC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be different. Assuming the accuracy was there, I'd shoot some in matches on shots where the wind is unusually difficult- shooting Herman at the Practical Marksman comes immediately to mind. 1100+ yards, odd swirling winds, and .308 only- yeah, I'd pay a dollar. It wouldn't replace my primary load though. </div></div>
This is exactly what these bullets are designed for.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But I would pay a premium for a .50 bmg with a significantly better BC than anything else out there... If you have a design that would scale to the BMG, definitely interested. Of course, they would be more than $1 each ;-)
</div></div>
We certainly have considered making these bullets in larger calibers where similar gains in performance can be had. However, for the same reasons mentioned above, the price of these larger bullets would be even higher. 33 caliber bullets would be priced around $1.80 each, 37 cal at around $2.25 each, and 50 cal at around $4 each.
So, thoughts?
So here is the additional information I promised yesterday.
I posed this question to everyone because of a very specific bullet.
Since about April of this year, I've been working towards the development of high performance target bullets with a Hide member who has a PhD in numerical methods as well as in depth knowledge of aerodynamics. Here is a picture showing our latest development.
Figure 1: Loaded 308 rounds with various bullets
Shown in Figure 1 are some loaded 308 Win rounds with a few different bullets. Closest to the camera are loaded 175 gr Sierra MatchKings, moving rearward, you have 155 gr Berger Match, the new 162.5 gr bullet, and finally 155 gr Sierra MatchKings. All loaded rounds have a COAL of 2.800”
This new 162.5 gr bullet is pretty cool. It was designed specifically for slower twist 308 rifles. Here is a list of all the good qualities of the bullet:
• The bullet weighs 162.5 gr
• It requires no special chambering considerations
• It needs only a 11.5 twist, or faster, to stabilize
• It has an averaged G1 BC of 0.565
• It is very tolerant of long throats (i.e. it jumps to the lands well)
• It is lead free
• Does not foul your barrel
• Achieves muzzle velocities of lighter, lead cored bullets
The downside is the price of the bullet. Due to the price of copper, the CNC equipment required to make the bullet, and the company's overhead and margins, a realistic retail price for the bullet is about $1. Hence the question that started this thread.
In regards to accuracy potential, here is a picture of a four and five round group recently shot at 300 yards.
Figure 2: 300 yard group
The target shown in Figure 2 was shot using my RPA prone rifle built by Jim Cloward of Lake Stevens, WA. Chambered 308 Win, I used this rifle to shoot NRA High-power competition back when I had time, and a life.
I'd like to respond to certain comments left by some members who kindly participated in this thread.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no, technology is not that backwards that some hidden trick could increase BC by 20% without adverse effects (instability) negating any advantage
when real testing occurred (like that done this spring on the 338 turned solid projectiles with the high claims/prices) the initial buyers would almost certainly be left holding the bags of their overpriced/ underperforming projectiles and looking the fool </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I see it, there probably <span style="font-style: italic">would</span> be those willing to pay $1 per bullet if, in fact, the 20% increase in BC were demonstrably true. Perhaps not many initially, but some.
The real question in my mind would be what is different about this projectile to give a 20% increase in BC, and what would that mean as far as reloading. A 20% gain in BC would be great, right up to the point you realized you needed a faster twist rate, different chamber specs, or it was extremely difficult to produce an accurate reload due to some inherent difference in the shape of the projectile required to get the higher BC. If that turned out to be the case, IMO such a projectile wouldn't be worth the cost, even if they were priced similarly to the others you mentioned.
On the other hand, I would be willing to bet that if all else were equal (ease of reloading, twist rate, chamber specs, etc.), a projectile that performed as described would find a large market quickly as the word got around. Unfortunately, there's really no way to gauge its potential without significantly more information than simply a 20% increase in BC. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, I would not pay 2x-3x more for a bullet with a 20% gain. The way I see it is why shoot a 308 that has the ballistics of a 300 win mag that cost more than a 300 win mag with traditional bullets. Also what special requirements would this bullet require with twist rate and chambers? </div></div>
The BC of this projectile is real. The BC was verified using a <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">properly</span></span></span> designed drop test so the 0.565 number is not an estimate like those published by other manufacturers. It is a measured value. The bullet has a high BC and is stable from a relatively slow twist, commonly available barrel without special requirements.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 71firebird400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, and I don't think many others would either. Just look at the current market share; not everyone shops bullets by BC- they're looking at things like cost and how finicky a bullet can be. In my experience, as BC goes up so does how picky the bullet is to load for. Berger's are already pushing the envelope for cost, so I really don't think an even more expensive bullet would be a good seller. </div></div>
This bullet has a high BC and is definitely not finicky to load for. It does not show the seating depth dependence like some other, very secant bullets do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steelhead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ran the numbers through my ballistic calculator and found this:
Elevation at 1000 yards gives you slightly better than 10% reduction in elevation adjustment. (32.9 moa to 29.5 moa)
Not that big of a deal.
However, if you look at windage, then you gain just over 25% better recuction in adjustment. (7.5 moa vs 5.9 moa)
In the computer model, it looks like the bullet would effectively mimic my 6.5 Creedmoor load. Of course real world testing would need to be done to verify. Interestingly the .30 cal load would beat my 6mm Creedmoor load in windage, but not elevation.
What is really impressive is the amount of energy that is retained with the 20% better bullet. 942 ft/lbs compared to 728 ft/lbs.</div></div>
I encourage you to run the numbers again. This time use the 0.565 BC, 162.5gr weight, and a faster muzzle velocity than a standard 175 gr projectile. You will find the wind difference is pretty substantial.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Will</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NO, not in 30 cal. can't be that much advantage. Will stick with Lapua 185 or Berger 175 </div></div>
Use a ballistic calculator and you will find that these bullets offer a significant advantage. Below is a wind drift comparison between 175 SMK and this new 162.5 grain bullet. At 1000 yards, wind drift for the 162.5 is 30% less than that of the 175 SMK. That's significant.
Figure 3: Wind Drift Comparison
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Red_SC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be different. Assuming the accuracy was there, I'd shoot some in matches on shots where the wind is unusually difficult- shooting Herman at the Practical Marksman comes immediately to mind. 1100+ yards, odd swirling winds, and .308 only- yeah, I'd pay a dollar. It wouldn't replace my primary load though. </div></div>
This is exactly what these bullets are designed for.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But I would pay a premium for a .50 bmg with a significantly better BC than anything else out there... If you have a design that would scale to the BMG, definitely interested. Of course, they would be more than $1 each ;-)
</div></div>
We certainly have considered making these bullets in larger calibers where similar gains in performance can be had. However, for the same reasons mentioned above, the price of these larger bullets would be even higher. 33 caliber bullets would be priced around $1.80 each, 37 cal at around $2.25 each, and 50 cal at around $4 each.
So, thoughts?
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
I would gladly pay that for a .375 bullet. Not a lot of Cheytac bullets around right now.
I would gladly pay that for a .375 bullet. Not a lot of Cheytac bullets around right now.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
Ted what kind of velocities are you getting with standard barrel lengths??
Can you elaborate on the how the bullet does not foul the barrel? I'm assuming you meant copper fouling correct??
I'm on the fence... Are there any plans for heavier bullets in the 180 or 200 range?? I think for folks who put a of of rounds down the tube it's going to a tough sell at $1 a piece... However there are a few of us who are still pushing the limits of the higher velocity .30 cal that may not mind paying that price...
Does the bullet expand at all? The other crowd that might be interested in something like this are long range hunters...
Ted what kind of velocities are you getting with standard barrel lengths??
Can you elaborate on the how the bullet does not foul the barrel? I'm assuming you meant copper fouling correct??
I'm on the fence... Are there any plans for heavier bullets in the 180 or 200 range?? I think for folks who put a of of rounds down the tube it's going to a tough sell at $1 a piece... However there are a few of us who are still pushing the limits of the higher velocity .30 cal that may not mind paying that price...
Does the bullet expand at all? The other crowd that might be interested in something like this are long range hunters...
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
no
no
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
At a round cost after reloading similar to my .338 Lapua with brass/primer/bullet, I would say no.
At a round cost after reloading similar to my .338 Lapua with brass/primer/bullet, I would say no.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
what is the competition for this market?
barnes does hunting solids, does anyone already do .308 match type solids?
I can see where volume makes little difference on price to produce these on a CNC machine, but how about other methods of metal working, could volume production bring the price to a point that would generate volume sales ( about .4 - .5 each ) ?
what is the competition for this market?
barnes does hunting solids, does anyone already do .308 match type solids?
I can see where volume makes little difference on price to produce these on a CNC machine, but how about other methods of metal working, could volume production bring the price to a point that would generate volume sales ( about .4 - .5 each ) ?
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
I would pay $1 for a complete round, but not for just the bullet. a 20% increase would be HUGE, and IF something like that hit the market, all the big companies would have their own versions for alot less within a year.
I would pay $1 for a complete round, but not for just the bullet. a 20% increase would be HUGE, and IF something like that hit the market, all the big companies would have their own versions for alot less within a year.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
Maybe, I would need to see some hard evidence that they are "that" much better. Without evidence - no.
Maybe, I would need to see some hard evidence that they are "that" much better. Without evidence - no.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
No I wouldn't as I already get excellent performance in my current 300RUM application with what is on the market and I try to control costs to allow for volume shooting. The increased performance may be necessary for some but in my use, I know my current load inside out and THAT is what gets me on target at distance consistently.
No I wouldn't as I already get excellent performance in my current 300RUM application with what is on the market and I try to control costs to allow for volume shooting. The increased performance may be necessary for some but in my use, I know my current load inside out and THAT is what gets me on target at distance consistently.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
Litz has a nice article describing the general problem with 30 cal. If you scale the high BC per caliber bullets up you have 140gr 6.5s, 180gr 7mms, leading to something around 230gr 30 cals. The 175gr range bullets are not heavy, they are very middle of the road for 30 cal. The people who would spend on something like this are shooting cartridges that push heavy for caliber range.
Now would people pay that for an honest 20% gain on top of an already pointed (7% better) 180gr 7mm bullet? Probably so. Thats what the bulk of the 1000 yard fclass shooters are using these days. In that pool you would find some customers for sure. Same for people launching 230gr 30 cal bullets out of larger necked down cartridges.
Looking at 7mm again, if somehow you produced something that achieved 180gr performance and still magazine fed out of a short action that might be something too.
Litz has a nice article describing the general problem with 30 cal. If you scale the high BC per caliber bullets up you have 140gr 6.5s, 180gr 7mms, leading to something around 230gr 30 cals. The 175gr range bullets are not heavy, they are very middle of the road for 30 cal. The people who would spend on something like this are shooting cartridges that push heavy for caliber range.
Now would people pay that for an honest 20% gain on top of an already pointed (7% better) 180gr 7mm bullet? Probably so. Thats what the bulk of the 1000 yard fclass shooters are using these days. In that pool you would find some customers for sure. Same for people launching 230gr 30 cal bullets out of larger necked down cartridges.
Looking at 7mm again, if somehow you produced something that achieved 180gr performance and still magazine fed out of a short action that might be something too.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frogman77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ted what kind of velocities are you getting with standard barrel lengths??
Can you elaborate on the how the bullet does not foul the barrel? I'm assuming you meant copper fouling correct??
I'm on the fence... Are there any plans for heavier bullets in the 180 or 200 range?? I think for folks who put a of of rounds down the tube it's going to a tough sell at $1 a piece... However there are a few of us who are still pushing the limits of the higher velocity .30 cal that may not mind paying that price...
Does the bullet expand at all? The other crowd that might be interested in something like this are long range hunters... </div></div>
With standard length barrels (20 to 26 inches) you can expect velocities around 150-200 fps faster than a jacketed 175 grain bullet. We seemed to control pressure better when using faster powders. Much of our testing was done using a 308 Win loaded with H4895 which is faster than what most people use for this cartridge/bullet weight combination.
Copper fouling was not a problem for us, even after putting over 500 rounds though a barrel without cleaning.
Heavier 175 grain 30 bullets have been designed which require a 10 twist barrel.
The bullet is not designed to expand. It is made from solid copper and has a pretty sharp point.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is the competition for this market?
barnes does hunting solids, does anyone already do .308 match type solids?
I can see where volume makes little difference on price to produce these on a CNC machine, but how about other methods of metal working, could volume production bring the price to a point that would generate volume sales ( about .4 - .5 each ) ? </div></div>
I do not believe anyone offers a 30 caliber bullet weighing less than 175 grains that has a field tested BC greater than or equal to that of the 162.5 grain, 11.5 twist bullet we tested.
There are likely more cost effective methods of production but said methods will required much larger investments in machinery and tooling. However, it is worth noting that Hornady currently offers the 165 grain GMX bullet for $0.89 each. These bullets are solid gilding metal (which is mostly copper) and we suspect that these bullets are formed rather than cut making them more material efficient. So either solid copper bullets are expensive to produce or Hornady does not wish to sell the bullet for less. Both are likely true.
Thanks for all of the feedback guys. If you have additional interest in any of this, feel free to send a PM or just call or email me or just keep adding to this thread. This has been interesting and fun.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frogman77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ted what kind of velocities are you getting with standard barrel lengths??
Can you elaborate on the how the bullet does not foul the barrel? I'm assuming you meant copper fouling correct??
I'm on the fence... Are there any plans for heavier bullets in the 180 or 200 range?? I think for folks who put a of of rounds down the tube it's going to a tough sell at $1 a piece... However there are a few of us who are still pushing the limits of the higher velocity .30 cal that may not mind paying that price...
Does the bullet expand at all? The other crowd that might be interested in something like this are long range hunters... </div></div>
With standard length barrels (20 to 26 inches) you can expect velocities around 150-200 fps faster than a jacketed 175 grain bullet. We seemed to control pressure better when using faster powders. Much of our testing was done using a 308 Win loaded with H4895 which is faster than what most people use for this cartridge/bullet weight combination.
Copper fouling was not a problem for us, even after putting over 500 rounds though a barrel without cleaning.
Heavier 175 grain 30 bullets have been designed which require a 10 twist barrel.
The bullet is not designed to expand. It is made from solid copper and has a pretty sharp point.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is the competition for this market?
barnes does hunting solids, does anyone already do .308 match type solids?
I can see where volume makes little difference on price to produce these on a CNC machine, but how about other methods of metal working, could volume production bring the price to a point that would generate volume sales ( about .4 - .5 each ) ? </div></div>
I do not believe anyone offers a 30 caliber bullet weighing less than 175 grains that has a field tested BC greater than or equal to that of the 162.5 grain, 11.5 twist bullet we tested.
There are likely more cost effective methods of production but said methods will required much larger investments in machinery and tooling. However, it is worth noting that Hornady currently offers the 165 grain GMX bullet for $0.89 each. These bullets are solid gilding metal (which is mostly copper) and we suspect that these bullets are formed rather than cut making them more material efficient. So either solid copper bullets are expensive to produce or Hornady does not wish to sell the bullet for less. Both are likely true.
Thanks for all of the feedback guys. If you have additional interest in any of this, feel free to send a PM or just call or email me or just keep adding to this thread. This has been interesting and fun.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
First off, what you have done is awesome, my hat is off to you, sir. That's what's cool about shooters, they find creative ways to make better options.
That said, I don't know if this dog is going to hunt. Not trying to be a downer, just giving you my honest thoughts as a long range shooter and reloader. You are talking four times the cost of projectiles with nearly as good a BC. The 178 HPBTs are right there at 0.530...yours are better, but to a guy that makes decent money, probably better money than a lot of other reloaders, it's not cost effective.
My suggestion would be, see what of the data you have and lessons you have learned can be applied to say the 300wm or 300wsm calibers. How does it perform at 3000fps? Can you scale up the design and boost the BC higher?
If I was shooting ELR the extra BC at those ranges isn't anything to sneeze at. I find myself asking this question though, "Do I need the extra 35/100ths of BC to make hits to 1k with a 308 bad enough to pay 4x the amount of available projectiles?"
Not for me. I think your market for home grown/designed projectiles is in ELR.
Rich
First off, what you have done is awesome, my hat is off to you, sir. That's what's cool about shooters, they find creative ways to make better options.
That said, I don't know if this dog is going to hunt. Not trying to be a downer, just giving you my honest thoughts as a long range shooter and reloader. You are talking four times the cost of projectiles with nearly as good a BC. The 178 HPBTs are right there at 0.530...yours are better, but to a guy that makes decent money, probably better money than a lot of other reloaders, it's not cost effective.
My suggestion would be, see what of the data you have and lessons you have learned can be applied to say the 300wm or 300wsm calibers. How does it perform at 3000fps? Can you scale up the design and boost the BC higher?
If I was shooting ELR the extra BC at those ranges isn't anything to sneeze at. I find myself asking this question though, "Do I need the extra 35/100ths of BC to make hits to 1k with a 308 bad enough to pay 4x the amount of available projectiles?"
Not for me. I think your market for home grown/designed projectiles is in ELR.
Rich
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
I just want to make something clear. The extent of my involvement with this project was primarily financial. I'm not the guy that actually developed the bullet. Someone else deserves the credit for the technical end of this.
I just want to make something clear. The extent of my involvement with this project was primarily financial. I'm not the guy that actually developed the bullet. Someone else deserves the credit for the technical end of this.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
yes; the benefit is in the significantly reduced wind deflection, especially at distances well beyond 1,000 yards.
Jeffvn
yes; the benefit is in the significantly reduced wind deflection, especially at distances well beyond 1,000 yards.
Jeffvn
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
"I've thought about this off and on as I saw the various "exotic solids" threads that went up and down here. I just brought it up with a buddy who's very good with numbers in technical terms and not bad in financial terms. The guy is a whiz with race cars and how to get the best from them... He said off the bat to me "what's the average performance change when some new high performance bullet comes out?" I never thought about that, turns out it's around 3-4% different. The price difference from a Berger to a Sierra is about 50% with the Berger's BC and price both being premiums.
So he said "OK, that means that guys pay 50% increases in price for the edge of only 3%, 17% cost increase for about 1% in performance. That's not a bad return on cost compared to race cars. What do these new ones cost and how do they perform?"
20%-25% increase in BC for a 200%-300% increase in cost. The extra speed helps too and the total performance is about 30-35%. That's 8% increase in price for 1% increase in performance.
Pretty much means that if someone's willing to shoot Berger over SMK then it's a fool's argument not to shoot the new bullets, it's a cheaper performance boost from that perspective than shooting Scenars or Bergers over SMK's and Hornady.
Don't shoot them everyday and blast away, but at a big match look at the cost overall:
I shoot Reade Range events several times a year as well as other matches like the Rayners challenge and Thunder Valley. The match fee, hotel, food, travel costs and equipment use is about 85-90% of the cost of a weekend. An average Reade match weekend costs me around $500 and I shoot <175rd over 3 days. 284 Winchester ammo loaded with Bergers costs me about $1/rd when I look at the barrel life as part of the cost of use. So instead of $1/rd I'd be spending about $1.50/rd
Total cost of the weekend goes from $500 to $575 and I get a 20% increase in performance on BC but a large boost in speed too, turns into around 30% increase in performance overall for $75. This goes back to the question of guys shooting a 308 that refuse to swap out calibers to a 6, 6.5 or 7mm because of barrel life cost. But they go to matches and then complain about getting beat up by "cheater calibers".
Seems to me that this is going to be the way to win at big places in F-TR or 308 only matches. The numbers that Ted posted make the 308 shoot like a 260 with 140class conventional bullets. For a $0.50/rd increase over what it costs already.
Ted, I'd like to know when these are going to be available for a 284. Do you know if there are plans to develop other calibers like 6.5's and 7's?
"I've thought about this off and on as I saw the various "exotic solids" threads that went up and down here. I just brought it up with a buddy who's very good with numbers in technical terms and not bad in financial terms. The guy is a whiz with race cars and how to get the best from them... He said off the bat to me "what's the average performance change when some new high performance bullet comes out?" I never thought about that, turns out it's around 3-4% different. The price difference from a Berger to a Sierra is about 50% with the Berger's BC and price both being premiums.
So he said "OK, that means that guys pay 50% increases in price for the edge of only 3%, 17% cost increase for about 1% in performance. That's not a bad return on cost compared to race cars. What do these new ones cost and how do they perform?"
20%-25% increase in BC for a 200%-300% increase in cost. The extra speed helps too and the total performance is about 30-35%. That's 8% increase in price for 1% increase in performance.
Pretty much means that if someone's willing to shoot Berger over SMK then it's a fool's argument not to shoot the new bullets, it's a cheaper performance boost from that perspective than shooting Scenars or Bergers over SMK's and Hornady.
Don't shoot them everyday and blast away, but at a big match look at the cost overall:
I shoot Reade Range events several times a year as well as other matches like the Rayners challenge and Thunder Valley. The match fee, hotel, food, travel costs and equipment use is about 85-90% of the cost of a weekend. An average Reade match weekend costs me around $500 and I shoot <175rd over 3 days. 284 Winchester ammo loaded with Bergers costs me about $1/rd when I look at the barrel life as part of the cost of use. So instead of $1/rd I'd be spending about $1.50/rd
Total cost of the weekend goes from $500 to $575 and I get a 20% increase in performance on BC but a large boost in speed too, turns into around 30% increase in performance overall for $75. This goes back to the question of guys shooting a 308 that refuse to swap out calibers to a 6, 6.5 or 7mm because of barrel life cost. But they go to matches and then complain about getting beat up by "cheater calibers".
Seems to me that this is going to be the way to win at big places in F-TR or 308 only matches. The numbers that Ted posted make the 308 shoot like a 260 with 140class conventional bullets. For a $0.50/rd increase over what it costs already.
Ted, I'd like to know when these are going to be available for a 284. Do you know if there are plans to develop other calibers like 6.5's and 7's?
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
no just for the sheer fact that you could buy less ammo and the gain wouldnt be that significant for me to notice.
no just for the sheer fact that you could buy less ammo and the gain wouldnt be that significant for me to notice.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
Another possibility besides scaling up for ELR, scale down to 6.5mm and go after the hardcore competition people. Small improvements are worth it at ELR ranges because at 1500+ yards every little bit helps. It's also worth it if you have the chops to say, win the SH Cup and walk away with first pick on a 100k+ prize table.
I don't think 308 is the market for it, but you are on the right track
Another possibility besides scaling up for ELR, scale down to 6.5mm and go after the hardcore competition people. Small improvements are worth it at ELR ranges because at 1500+ yards every little bit helps. It's also worth it if you have the chops to say, win the SH Cup and walk away with first pick on a 100k+ prize table.
I don't think 308 is the market for it, but you are on the right track
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
The more I think about it the more intrigued I am... Potentially this could take a non magnum caliber like the .30-06 into the ELR game without burning a whole lot more powder or barrel life.
I probably would buy them, but it would be specifically for that task... For high volume practice or plinking steel the cost/performance benefit just isn't there.
If a hunting bullet design with a minimum impact velocity for expansion with around 1300-1500fps came around I would definitely buy them for long range hunting.
Even though I really like hornady Amax bullets for the cost, by the time I'm done sorting and culling my bullets would I have rather spent another .70 cents to have dedicated long range bullets that are pretty much perfect out of the box ready to go, no culled bullets and with higher performance ? For me I would highly consider it...
The more I think about it the more intrigued I am... Potentially this could take a non magnum caliber like the .30-06 into the ELR game without burning a whole lot more powder or barrel life.
I probably would buy them, but it would be specifically for that task... For high volume practice or plinking steel the cost/performance benefit just isn't there.
If a hunting bullet design with a minimum impact velocity for expansion with around 1300-1500fps came around I would definitely buy them for long range hunting.
Even though I really like hornady Amax bullets for the cost, by the time I'm done sorting and culling my bullets would I have rather spent another .70 cents to have dedicated long range bullets that are pretty much perfect out of the box ready to go, no culled bullets and with higher performance ? For me I would highly consider it...
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
No. I think most would use a .260 or 7-08 instead to gain in BC without increasing their costs. You might find some people interested if they are entering a .308 specific competition.
Some more information would be helpful to those that may consider it, though. Would it be a 175 gr bullet like those you were using for comparison? Assuming it has a much different composition, what would the length be?
No. I think most would use a .260 or 7-08 instead to gain in BC without increasing their costs. You might find some people interested if they are entering a .308 specific competition.
Some more information would be helpful to those that may consider it, though. Would it be a 175 gr bullet like those you were using for comparison? Assuming it has a much different composition, what would the length be?
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
Well I waited a while to reply to this question because it took me a while to make up my mind, generally speaking I did not get into hand loading to save money(that is just a added bonus if it happens), I started because I wanted to get the most performance out of my rifle. So having said that I would likely buy some of the bullets to give them a try, I doubt they would replace the 208 AMAX as my go to projectile on my reloading bench but if they perform as described they could earn a spot in my range bag for those days I plan on going to a competition or a day where the wind is really moving along.
Also it would seem that you are not alone in the thought that somebody may be interested in paying a premium for a ballistic advantage in a given weight class. Cutting Edge Bullets is selling several bullets in different calibers and weight classes with higher BC’s than their competitors for a price premium(although their biggest advantages seem to be in their 165 grain .308 as opposed to their other offerings). They advertise their .308 165 grain projectile with a BC of .533 at $63.99 for a box of fifty, so if your 162.5 grian projectile does indeed have a BC of .565 and you can sell them for less than the ‘Cutting Edge Bullets’ listed on MidwayUSA, I would be interested in giving them a try, I would be even more interested if you came out with a bullet that could outperform of keep pace with the Hornady 225 HPBT but weighted about 200 grains.
Well I waited a while to reply to this question because it took me a while to make up my mind, generally speaking I did not get into hand loading to save money(that is just a added bonus if it happens), I started because I wanted to get the most performance out of my rifle. So having said that I would likely buy some of the bullets to give them a try, I doubt they would replace the 208 AMAX as my go to projectile on my reloading bench but if they perform as described they could earn a spot in my range bag for those days I plan on going to a competition or a day where the wind is really moving along.
Also it would seem that you are not alone in the thought that somebody may be interested in paying a premium for a ballistic advantage in a given weight class. Cutting Edge Bullets is selling several bullets in different calibers and weight classes with higher BC’s than their competitors for a price premium(although their biggest advantages seem to be in their 165 grain .308 as opposed to their other offerings). They advertise their .308 165 grain projectile with a BC of .533 at $63.99 for a box of fifty, so if your 162.5 grian projectile does indeed have a BC of .565 and you can sell them for less than the ‘Cutting Edge Bullets’ listed on MidwayUSA, I would be interested in giving them a try, I would be even more interested if you came out with a bullet that could outperform of keep pace with the Hornady 225 HPBT but weighted about 200 grains.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
I would not spend the extra money for the bullets. I already get consistent 1/2 minute groups using 178gr Amax's and they're even cheaper.
If I was gonna spend that much money on a bullet I'd jut buy 300gr SMKs for my .338LM.
I would not spend the extra money for the bullets. I already get consistent 1/2 minute groups using 178gr Amax's and they're even cheaper.
If I was gonna spend that much money on a bullet I'd jut buy 300gr SMKs for my .338LM.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
For $1 a projo I would need a bit more than just 20% increased BC.
If the added BC equates to adequate hits at range hunting game I would be inclined to purchase them knowing I would have the added range in a hunt. This looks to only add about a 100 yds to my current range of 550 for Mule Deer and that is sizable increase in range. The unknown point is what the projo is made of, as I hunt in Kalifornia's condor range and no lead is allowed. So for me the million dollar question is the added BC also made without lead in the projo. If so, I would be interested in small quantities.
Edit just noticed the added comments from the OP. No lead is great, I would be interested. Is there info on terminal ballistics? Retention of weight and expansion are good info, but of course this does not matter as much if shot placement is effective. One issue is my 1-12 twist barrel may not be quick enough as it seems, that is a shame but I would still try it out.
For $1 a projo I would need a bit more than just 20% increased BC.
If the added BC equates to adequate hits at range hunting game I would be inclined to purchase them knowing I would have the added range in a hunt. This looks to only add about a 100 yds to my current range of 550 for Mule Deer and that is sizable increase in range. The unknown point is what the projo is made of, as I hunt in Kalifornia's condor range and no lead is allowed. So for me the million dollar question is the added BC also made without lead in the projo. If so, I would be interested in small quantities.
Edit just noticed the added comments from the OP. No lead is great, I would be interested. Is there info on terminal ballistics? Retention of weight and expansion are good info, but of course this does not matter as much if shot placement is effective. One issue is my 1-12 twist barrel may not be quick enough as it seems, that is a shame but I would still try it out.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
Thanks for the prize!
I stick with what I said before about the $1 per bullet. It puts the 308 round into 338 lapua cost territory, so it becomes pointless. You might as well just use the 338. However, If you made something for 338 lapua, that's a whole different story. I know that you are worried about the price being EVEN higher, but that the beauty of it. Just by the nature of who shoots 338lm, many do not have financial constraints. I personally might not pay 1.80 per bullet, atleast until I have more experience. HOWEVER, I know one of my shooting buddies will pay whatever the cost, for any ACTUAL edge in performace.
Thanks for the prize!
I stick with what I said before about the $1 per bullet. It puts the 308 round into 338 lapua cost territory, so it becomes pointless. You might as well just use the 338. However, If you made something for 338 lapua, that's a whole different story. I know that you are worried about the price being EVEN higher, but that the beauty of it. Just by the nature of who shoots 338lm, many do not have financial constraints. I personally might not pay 1.80 per bullet, atleast until I have more experience. HOWEVER, I know one of my shooting buddies will pay whatever the cost, for any ACTUAL edge in performace.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
With the same fps as my 168gr amax, that's 47in LESS drop at 1000yds.
Def not a bullet I'd use for normal shooting but I would try it for matches... With that much less drop it would and could only help for the unknown distance events. The less it drops, the more margin of error I have for range calculation errors.
With the same fps as my 168gr amax, that's 47in LESS drop at 1000yds.
Def not a bullet I'd use for normal shooting but I would try it for matches... With that much less drop it would and could only help for the unknown distance events. The less it drops, the more margin of error I have for range calculation errors.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
I would absolutely give them a shot.
They certainly wouldn't become my primary bullet, but I think they would be interesting to experiment with.
I would absolutely give them a shot.
They certainly wouldn't become my primary bullet, but I think they would be interesting to experiment with.
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings
I'm not sure who your machine shop is, whether you own the machines or are having someone else make them, but if you took the design for these bullets to a Swiss-style machine shop, you could get then for a fraction of the cost, especially in higher quantities. Those machines can hold fantastic tolerances and they can make things like this in huge quantities very quickly. It would definitely be worth a try
I'm not sure who your machine shop is, whether you own the machines or are having someone else make them, but if you took the design for these bullets to a Swiss-style machine shop, you could get then for a fraction of the cost, especially in higher quantities. Those machines can hold fantastic tolerances and they can make things like this in huge quantities very quickly. It would definitely be worth a try
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