12.7x114mm...

coldboreAU

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@ELR researcher,
Sorry, i read it again. Now i know you can't confirm 800grain bullet at 4000fps.
But i still like the idea of 800 grain 50 cal bullets at 4000 fps. Only the future will show who is right here.

@badassgunworks,
regarding the starting point of this thread. Honestly, I think nobody, really nobody can say anything about the 12.7x114mm because nobody has a cartridge print or knows the exact specifications of the cartridge. 12.7x114 = not 14.5x114. I don't know if it's really just a 14.5x114 necked down to 12.7. maybe other changes were made.

Now to 20mm cases.
I found a lot of different info on this, on too many different sites... and I really don't know what to think about it. various information from 3200 to 4000 fps with (50 cal) 750 grain and 800 grain bullets.... whatever. I'm also really tired of looking for information that can't be properly confirmed. If it takes 100k, 150k or 300million psi to get 4000fps...speculating about it without testing it in the real world makes me just tired.
The only thing I can confirm. Various companies and people have tried to necked down a 20mm case to 15mm, 14mm and 50 cal. But not one of those was a commercial success.

@Dan Warner

I don't want to say that in an ugly way but you can just eat popcorn or share your thoughts with us.
What was the issues on 14.9 SOP Cartridge? Where are the Errors? Why wasn't it a commercial success?
 
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Dan Warner

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Happy to share thoughts but when the uneducated make false claims, it becomes difficult not to become defensive.

The 14.9 has had issues. In no way was it because of the cartridge in any way. It was 100% because of the platforms that it was originally built on. Repeatable fire control was a big problem.

This is the issue with public r&d. One might get the impression that a project is dead because of huge gaps in publicity when in fact it is just taking a long time for the next phase to come to reality.

I will tell you this though... it will be coming back to life in a big way in the not too distant future. Don't ask for details, as they will not be addressed here.
 

coldboreAU

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Happy to share thoughts but when the uneducated make false claims, it becomes difficult not to become defensive.

The 14.9 has had issues. In no way was it because of the cartridge in any way. It was 100% because of the platforms that it was originally built on. Repeatable fire control was a big problem.

This is the issue with public r&d. One might get the impression that a project is dead because of huge gaps in publicity when in fact it is just taking a long time for the next phase to come to reality.

I will tell you this though... it will be coming back to life in a big way in the not too distant future. Don't ask for details, as they will not be addressed here.

All I can say is I like your thought. I'm not trying to ask for information now, but I hope to find out as soon as you release informations. I wish you success.
 

coldboreAU

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For all those who think size does not matter... That looks so much nicer than the GS picture on page 1

tumblr_pnmkzgK0z01tt8k9m_500.jpg
 

Frank Green

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I rebuilt/used a Lahti over 20 years ago. I called my round the 50HVT. It was the 14.5x114mm Russian case and I necked it down to 50cal. I’ll post some pictures tomorrow morning of the rounds and the gun along with some other things.

Horizons Lord was stunned when I showed them pictures of my prototype round I made up to have the chamber reamer and sizing die reamer made. They said they did a search and came up empty on anything like this. I said when I did it the internet thing was in it’s infancy. So I never posted anything about it at all.

I rebarreled a dewat Lahti 20mm anti tank rifle. Made a new barrel that duplicated the Lahti barrel to the T but did it in 50cal. Breech diameter on the Lahti barrel in front of the receiver was 2.050” if I recall correctly. Chambered it up and installed it. Even had the barrel blued. Gunsmiths bluing tanks that blued it for me had to do the barrel half of the length at a time as the tanks where not long enough to put a 52” long barrel into the tank at one time. Turned out pretty nice. The Lahti weighed around 100# empty. Shooting it off the bench was like shooting a 30-06 hunting rifle with all that weight.

I used primed Russian cases (forget where I bought them from). The .58cal bullets and powder had been pulled and dumped from the cases. Think I paid a $1 per primed case.

If I recall correctly my original starting load was either 380 or 390gr of 20N29 powder. 750gr Hornady AMAX bullets came out around 3100fps. My next load up was 400gr of powder. My intent was to shoot the gun and enjoy it and not necessarily to get the max velocity out of it. The recoil springs etc…where already 60+ years old. I didn’t want to wreck or damage the gun at all.

The case head of the 14.5 Russian is the same head diameter of the 20x138B Solothurn round. So I didn’t have to rework the bolt face or extractor etc…even though the 12.7x114 round was like a full 1.5” shorter in length. They fed from the Lahti magazines with out a hiccup.

The problem I had at the time with the Russian cases was two. One they where steel cases. So resizing them was going to be a bitch and the primer cup area is larger than a standard 50BMG primer and the flash holes of the case are Berdan primed. So it was a single shot use on the primed cases for me.

I also had Barnes back in the day make me some prototype bullets as they where already making lathe turned solids in 750 and 800gr bullets. They made me a handful of 1000gr bullets which I still have most of them. Never loaded or used them though. Just used the Hornady’s.

Do I still have the gun? No. I sold it when I went thru my divorce back in 2002/2003. Friend and class 3 collector and shooter bought it from me. A few years later he bought another 4 or 5 dewat Lahti’s and we made new barrels in 20mm for him and he rebuilt all the guns and reactivated them back to a destructive device. He sold the guns for like $10k or more dollars at the time. He might still have my old barrel and dies. I’ll have to ask him next time I see him.

Take a look at the 60 U.S. Machine gun. It was suppose to be a aircraft machine gun . The round was also called 15.2x114. I have an original round. The testing started in 1943 or 1944 and went thru as late as 1953 but it was all dropped and the U.S. just went to 20mm guns for the aircraft. According to data I have some of the bullets weighed around 1200gr and some lighter bullets. Velocity was in the 3300 to 3700fps range. The 60 US round used conventional percussion primers. Looking at 50BMG brass and my 60cal round they are the same size. I used a caliper and measured the 60 cal round as close as I could and measured the primer cup area on a resized 50bmg case. They did also test electrically fired primers/rounds as well in the 60 U.S. The round I have is dated 1951.

You cannot rely on quick load for pressure and velocity. I’ll say at times it is close and or get you in the ball park but I wouldn’t always hang my hat on what you come up with either. You want accurate data you need a pressure test barrel and do actual pressure and velocity testing.

So do I think it is possible for them to hit a velocity around 3700ish? I’ll say yes. There are more powder options out there then 20 years ago. Depending on bullet weight and also possible if using a duplex load….I’ll say yes it’s possible.

I know a few years back (think it was 2019) we made a 50cal barrel for Kelly McMillan that was around 50” long. He was going to take a U.S. 20mm case and neck it down to 50cal. I don’t know any case specifics like if he was going to shorten them some etc… with his passing who knows how far he got with it and where all the stuff is at.

Hey Dan W.! If I still had the stuff or if at the time you guys where making bullets and dies…I would’ve asked you to make me some of that stuff for me. I know you could’ve made it better than what I made. Say Hello to your dad for me! Even though I talked to him on the phone like a week ago! LOL!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
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Frank Green

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Here are some pic's for your viewing pleasure....

1651758278235.jpeg

On the left is a standard 50BMG round. On the right is my prototype 12.7x114 round I made a little over 20 years ago. That was my sample round to get my chamber reamer and sizing die reamer made. I called it the 50HVT.

Next picture below is a fired case I have left and a loaded round. I have three loaded rounds left over. Couldn't let all of them go with the gun.

1651758423646.jpeg

Next pic below was some prototype 1000gr bullets I had done.
1651758596037.jpeg

The Lahti I used to rebarrel to the 12.7x114 / 50HVT round. The rifle sitting next to it is a Rem. 700 in 308w with a 24" barrel on it and a McMillan stock for size comparison.

1651758690105.jpeg

A different view of the Lahti with a dummy gun FG42 again for a size comparison.

1651758759899.jpeg

Here is the Lahti and I had most of the accessories for it. The gunners kits, spare mag carrier (had 3 mags for the gun), and even an original shovel SA marked. Only one I've ever seen!
1651758884983.jpeg

The cartridge face of a 60 US machine gun round. Frankford Arsenal made in 1951. Rim diameter is 1.160". So a .100" bigger than the 14.5 Russian. Body diameter is a little bigger also but same case length.

1651759032526.jpeg

Here is a good comparison of some rounds. Looking left to right....

50BMG, 55 Boyes anti tank round, my 12.7x114/50HVT round, 60 US machine gun, 20mm US and on the far right is a 20x138B Solothurn/Lahti round.

1651759170929.jpeg
 

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@Frank Green

this is what makes me crazy about this industry...nothing is ever new, its all been tried before

but there is no central location for information, just so much time wasted during R&D at times
 

Frank Green

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@Frank Green

this is what makes me crazy about this industry...nothing is ever new, its all been tried before

but there is no central location for information, just so much time wasted during R&D at times
In some cases I do agree with you. What's new is really old.

Also some things don't make it past the development stage. So when someone else picks it up at a later date....still basically starting from scratch again.

I like the thought of a central location but don't know how that would work out. Who's going to maintain it? Will this place or that place want to give out all of the R&D info that they've invested time and money?

I'll also say this....in some cases you look at CIP and Saami spec's and why can't they seem to agree on somethings?

Also I've looked at plenty of spec's on chambers and reamers etc...and you go,"where did that spec come from because it makes absolutely no sense!"

I've seen chamber spec's where the throat is smaller in diameter than the bullet spec and the bore of the barrel is larger than the throat? Or why spec a 338cal round but then one of the bullets the manufacturer makes is called out to be .339" diameter?
 

Frank Green

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Here is both cases side by side looking from the cartridge face of course. That 14.5 case it's hard to tell from the pic but the primer cup is bigger than the 60 US and it's bigger than a 50BMG. I might still have one of the primer cups laying around believe it or not. When I demilled the one round to make my prototype I did for grins check to see if a 50BMG primer and vice versa swap with the 14.5 and they will not.

1651775132827.jpeg
 

coldboreAU

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@Frank Green. Sir, thank you for all this information. I really appreciate you taking the time to post it.

You cannot rely on quick load for pressure and velocity. I’ll say at times it is close and or get you in the ball park but I wouldn’t always hang my hat on what you come up with either. You want accurate data you need a pressure test barrel and do actual pressure and velocity testing.

i absolutely agree.

So do I think it is possible for them to hit a velocity around 3700ish? I’ll say yes. There are more powder options out there then 20 years ago. Depending on bullet weight and also possible if using a duplex load….I’ll say yes it’s possible.

I love hearing that you think around 3700 fps is possible.

I know a few years back (think it was 2019) we made a 50cal barrel for Kelly McMillan that was around 50” long. He was going to take a U.S. 20mm case and neck it down to 50cal. I don’t know any case specifics like if he was going to shorten them some etc… with his passing who knows how far

unfortunately, he passed away on june 1 , 2021. Maybe someone has saved his Data about 20mm case necked down to 50 cal... but i don't know.
 

coldboreAU

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regarding 20mm cases necked to 50 bmg. I found various Information but my knowledge on this is almost nothing. Yes, on pictures it looks cool but i don't know what to think of the different data.
I've read data about over 500 grain powder capacity and muzzle velocity up to 3750 fps. But i'm a bit worry to post it because i can't confirm this data.
The only thing I can really do is show you guys what pictures and data i found.
In the best case, i learn something new or i inspire one of the major players to develop something new.

Might be a questions for the knowledgeable guys. I see two different roads in future. Road nr 1. high capacity cartridges beyond 300 grain powder at "standard" pressure (slower powders). Road nr 2. below 300 grain powder capacity but at higher pressure. What would be your choice?
 

gwood

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Wasn't that the load that they couldn't zero because it burned out the throat after five shots or so?
 

Frank Green

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regarding 20mm cases necked to 50 bmg. I found various Information but my knowledge on this is almost nothing. Yes, on pictures it looks cool but i don't know what to think of the different data.
I've read data about over 500 grain powder capacity and muzzle velocity up to 3750 fps. But i'm a bit worry to post it because i can't confirm this data.
The only thing I can really do is show you guys what pictures and data i found.
In the best case, i learn something new or i inspire one of the major players to develop something new.

Might be a questions for the knowledgeable guys. I see two different roads in future. Road nr 1. high capacity cartridges beyond 300 grain powder at "standard" pressure (slower powders). Road nr 2. below 300 grain powder capacity but at higher pressure. What would be your choice?
For a 50cal my gut tells me the 20mm cases are over capacity by a lot.

Below 300gr capacity the 50BMG is fine…the 12.7x108mm round holds a little more. I should’ve put a 12.7x108 round in that picture with all the others. It’s the same bolt face as a standard BMG and holds a little more powder. Pressure is pressure but why take a given round and run it over pressure? That’s just going to be harder on the gun and harder on the brass cases etc….

You want higher velocity you have to go up case size/capacity.

More powder/higher velocity I think the something like the 12.7x114 is going to be what your looking at.

Think of a 223 Remington caliber gun. It will give you x amount of velocity. Let’s say 3200fps and that’s at it‘s max pressure capacity. Can you overload it and get higher velocity? Yes but pressure goes over the max and all your doing is shortening the case life and beating up the gun. You want more velocity then step up to a 22-250 Remington if you want to get to 3600fps and your keeping the gun at and pressures at the standard working levels. Just an example.
 
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Frank Green

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Should've thrown the 12.7x108 Russian round in that one pic. Here it is....

L to R

50BMG (12.7x99mm), 12.7x108mm Russian, 12.7x114 and the 60 US machine gun round.

I'd compare the 50bmg to the 12.7x108 Russian like comparing 308 Winchester to 30-06 Springfield. Dam near ballistic twins. There is pretty much nothing the 30-06 can do that the 308 Win. can do.

The 12.7x114...when I loaded it at 400gr of powder...there is plenty of case capacity left. Maybe I'll take that fired case and fill it up with powder to the bottom of the case neck and see how much it will hold.

I'll say necking down the 60 US round to 50 is like a 20mm case. Way over capacity.

1651795006874.jpeg
 
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Frank Green

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So I took some 20mm powder (the 20n29) and filled the case up to the top of the main body (bottom of the case shoulder) and that charge weighed 560gr of powder. Filling the case up to the bottom of the case neck…that powder charge came to 620gr of powder.

I was only loading 400gr. So I think you have plenty of case capacity to play with in the 12.7x114mm. Type of powder that you use and bullet weight is going to dictate what you can get out of it before you hit max pressure.

Again look at a factory spec. 14.5 Russian. Your talking a 1000gr bullet at 3300fps at a max pressure of 52k psi which it is rated at. Pretty much in the same area as a 50bmg and 12.7x108 Russian round for pressure as well.

Running a 750 to 800gr 50cal bullet I’ll say you can get at least 3300fps and probably some more out of the 12.7x114. Still need to do proper testing with a pressure/velocity test barrel. I would start the barrel at 50” for finish length. You can always cut an 1” or 2” off it at a time and check velocity. With that much powder capacity in a 50cal bore….I think you will be losing velocity If you run the barrel length shorter than 45”. Just my opinion.

Anyone got access to brass and loading the ammo? We can make the barrel and I can get the chamber reamer made as well. I know a place that can do all the testing. Just cost some $$$$ but it will be real world unbiased data.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 

brianf

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regarding 20mm cases necked to 50 bmg. I found various Information but my knowledge on this is almost nothing. Yes, on pictures it looks cool but i don't know what to think of the different data.
I've read data about over 500 grain powder capacity and muzzle velocity up to 3750 fps. But i'm a bit worry to post it because i can't confirm this data.
The only thing I can really do is show you guys what pictures and data i found.
In the best case, i learn something new or i inspire one of the major players to develop something new.

Might be a questions for the knowledgeable guys. I see two different roads in future. Road nr 1. high capacity cartridges beyond 300 grain powder at "standard" pressure (slower powders). Road nr 2. below 300 grain powder capacity but at higher pressure. What would be your choice?
From my research and dollars in a previous life ..lol

If this is actually a product to market discussion…steer clear of higher pressures on a case that size

In testing getting a 50 bmg to run at
70k
25% proof on top
And safety margin

The size, design, materials compared to a normal 50bmg receiver were like matchbox cars to Mack trucks.

I’m all for higher pressures but on a big case it’s a steep learning curve that isn’t cheap
 
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badassgunworks

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Like i have said many times. X+X+X+X =X . X pressure at X burn rate at X duration (Barrel length) at X bore diamiter at X bearing resistance = x results. Any of those out of place negative results should be expected.
Simply adding more powder will not alway produce more velocity . In order to get more velocity you must have a sustained increase in force or reduce the amont of resistance. Your eather going to burn all your available powder inside or out side of your barrel the larger the bore the larger the cfm the more volume of expanding gas is needed to create pressure thus the larger the cubic supply of burning powder ( chamber). As the bullet moves the chamber or size of pressured area grows or increases causing it to be harder to create pressure. Thats where the longer barrels help but the increase is on average is aprox 20 to 25 fps per inch. most of the pressure out side of your chamber is within the first 8"to 15". If your barrel ,chamber, cartridge , primer, action etc. Cant handle the needed increase in pressure to create a sustained increase in force to obtain higher velocity you have a problem .
 
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TripleBull

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    I assume you mean something like this:

    X = pressure
    Y = burn rate
    Z = bore diameter
    A = bearing resistance, and
    R = results

    Then R would equal some function dependent on X, Y, Z and A, meaning not just their product. Presumably, the total mass of powder figures in there too, and I'd also guess there are other factors involved, but I think I get your point and do appreciate the complexity. As a kid learning ballistics and handloading, I was confused initially by getting MV on a 270 and a 220 Swift as a function of powder and powder mass. I wanted so bad to get the 220 Swift up to 5280 FPS, but mother nature disagreed.
     
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    brianf

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    I assume you mean something like this:

    X = pressure
    Y = burn rate
    Z = bore diameter
    A = bearing resistance, and
    R = results

    Then R would equal some function dependent on X, Y, Z and A, meaning not just their product. Presumably, the total mass of powder figures in there too, and I'd also guess there are other factors involved, but I think I get your point and do appreciate the complexity. As a kid learning ballistics and handloading, I was confused initially by getting MV on a 270 and a 220 Swift as a function of powder and powder mass. I wanted so bad to get the 220 Swift up to 5280 FPS, but mother nature disagreed.
    I think the theoretical max of a burn rate powder is about 54-5600fps.

    Then you need explosive force.

    Air Force did a ton of testing in the early 70’s with high velocity objects as air to air missiles were becoming more effective.

    They knew how to “shoot” at planes /parts / components but needed to secondary effects and explosive driven material from ATA and GTA munitions.

    They wound up making several stainless barrels about 10” in diameter etc. more of a smooth bore cannon barrel.

    Propellent was a charge because powder couldn’t get up to the 7-8,000 FPS target velocity if I remember. Actually did research on the design for my “last project” about high pressure
     
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    badassgunworks

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    I assume you mean something like this:

    X = pressure
    Y = burn rate
    Z = bore diameter
    A = bearing resistance, and
    R = results

    Then R would equal some function dependent on X, Y, Z and A, meaning not just their product. Presumably, the total mass of powder figures in there too, and I'd also guess there are other factors involved, but I think I get your point and do appreciate the complexity. As a kid learning ballistics and handloading, I was confused initially by getting MV on a 270 and a 220 Swift as a function of powder and powder mass. I wanted so bad to get the 220 Swift up to 5280 FPS, but mother nature disagreed.
    You are correct if you were going to list is as a proper mathematical equation. i worded it with just x so that every one could understand
     

    badassgunworks

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    I think the theoretical max of a burn rate powder is about 54-5600fps.

    Then you need explosive force.

    Air Force did a ton of testing in the early 70’s with high velocity objects as air to air missiles were becoming more effective.

    They knew how to “shoot” at planes /parts / components but needed to secondary effects and explosive driven material from ATA and GTA munitions.

    They wound up making several stainless barrels about 10” in diameter etc. more of a smooth bore cannon barrel.
    Propellent was a charge because powder couldn’t get up to the 7-8,000 FPS target velocity if I remember. Actually did research on the design for my “last project” about high pressure
    there are other issues with most powders as about 95% of them when reaching a certain pressure level no longer exponentially increase the rate that they burn but detonate.
     

    coldboreAU

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    Wasn't that the load that they couldn't zero because it burned out the throat after five shots or so?
    Seriously??? If you're just kidding, fine, but if you really think you can burn out the throat in 5 shoots. I do not think so.
    When you load extremly hot to trying burn out the throat in 5 shots or less. I think the rifle will detonate before the throat is burned out.

    So I took some 20mm powder (the 20n29) and filled the case up to the top of the main body (bottom of the case shoulder) and that charge weighed 560gr of powder. Filling the case up to the bottom of the case neck…that powder charge came to 620gr of powder.
    That's a lot of capacity... more than enough. I think it could be a bit to much capacity and I think making some modifications to the 12.7x114 might be an option and getting custom brass.
    Let's say for playing with numbers, 560 grain is 100% usable powder capacity. A 400 grain load is just 71.4% case filling.
    98% would be much better but think in this specific case you get pressure issues (to much pressure at 98% case fil) but you know it better than me. I belive slower powder would be neened.
    And thanks for measuring powder capacity, by the way.

    You asked for what i'm looking.
    So im looking for 2 Things.
    1. A caliber capable of accelerating 800 grain (50 bmg) bullets to 3300-3400 fps. with low standard deviations. (Low SD)
    2. building an elr rifle chambered in this caliber, using only Premium components and make it shoot 0.5 moa groups. In other words, i don't want just the big boom. I also want high accuracy.
    Would it be possible to get what i want with the 12.7x 114? And to the brass question, i think RRC Brass can make any brass you want.

    now a short message for you Badassgunworks. The question is just about Hardware (Barrel-action). It's not about a specific cartridge. it's more about the tensile strength and yield strength of steel. As an example, two 40" long Bartlein barrels (416r ss). Both chambered in 416 Barrett, cut to the same specifications. Same barrel contours. I put a BAT-Ex action on one barrel. I put a 20x action on the other. Now I load 20 rounds for each barrel. Each round hotter than the round before. The goal is to detonate both systems. And the question is, do you think one action will detonate much later than the other? I think no.

    If you agree with me on this point, I have one more question. Why would only your 416 destroyer, 458 goliath... be able to operate at 90,000-100,000psi? What is the magic in this cartridge design?

    Yes, maybe compared to you I have a lack of knowledge. But I can't see why Frank Green shouldn't be able to make the 12,7x114 run at higher pressures. I do believe with custom brass you can come over a lot of problems.
    But you think the 12.7x114 is a waste of time.
     
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    coldboreAU

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    and an interesting question, at least for me. why have you never tried to develop a wildcat that accelerates 50 cal 800 grain bullets to 3400fps???? Letting lighter bullets fly faster can't always be the way forward.
     

    coldboreAU

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    and the last part for today . When you can get 3300-3400 fps with 800grain heavy 50 cal bullets with "standard" pressure, larger case, longer barrel...etc.
    Then why use a smaller cartridge that can do the same but at higher pressure? high pressure is always hard on action, barrel, brass... The last point before im out. I actually hate it when someone just says where the problems are and by that I mean, don't tell me the problems! Tell me the Solution!
     

    jasent

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    I’m sure It can be done but how much money ya wanna spend. With that much capacity step one would be developing a new powder slower than what’s currently available. Probably only a several million bucks there.
     

    badassgunworks

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    and the last part for today . When you can get 3300-3400 fps with 800grain heavy 50 cal bullets with "standard" pressure, larger case, longer barrel...etc.
    Then why use a smaller cartridge that can do the same but at higher pressure? high pressure is always hard on action, barrel, brass... The last point before im out. I actually hate it when someone just says where the problems are and by that I mean, don't tell me the problems! Tell me the Solution!
    So what is your agenda with this conversation? You seem very interested in it. And what is your desire to push an insanely large bullet super fast. You do understand that with all of that grain weight you get massive recoil. The rifle would definitely need the way at least 75 lb to help manage that recoil. Have you ever transported or carried a rifle over 50 lb and 80 plus inches long? Do you have an idea what it's going to cost to feed that monster? Not to mention the availability of of quality components are non-existent. Now let us look at the practicality of this being a precision extreme range rifle. With the exception of perhaps someone building Precision lathe turn bullets none of the components currently available will ever produce any kind of consistency at 4000 yd in fact there's no chance of even remotely being precision at that distance when you consider all of the variables sd's ,bc sd's ,wind etc . The goal shoud be to do it with new high tech better quality stuff smaller, shorter lighter, less recoil, when we keep gegurating the same old tech expecting new results its a waste of time .
     
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    coldboreAU

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    @jasent slower powder already exists like S 101-01, 7 perforated powder from lovex. Even 19 perforated powders exist
    but I guess not available to the public.
    I posted a picture about the powder on page one. A note on 20mm bullets. look at the bottom, right corner on the next picture. Custom brass silver tip bullet... i'm not sure.
    Screenshot_20220507-215941_Gallery.jpg


    @badassgunworks my intention was to find out where the maximum of feasibility really is. Let me tell you my thoughts,looking back at the regular 416 Barrett m99. 452 grain Bullet at around 3000 fps muzzle velocity. Then look at Paul Philipp's 416 barrett rifle, 550grain bullets at around 3000+ fps muzzle velocity. Now look at your 416 colossus... 525 grain bullets at 3300+ fps. That's a big big difference compared to where it started with the .416 calibers.
    Now to the 50 bmg. Yes, it's old technology, it's an old cartridge but why not develop the 50 caliber further in the same way as the 416 caliber???

    Please note i don't want to try to shit/badmouth the 375 Warner but at least as i know, the 375 Warner was basically a 50 bmg necked down to. 375.
    20220507_212350.jpg


    Yes, barrel life was short but was it a bad or stupid cartridge? I say no. A lot of people have necked down the 50 bmg to .416 .375 and not to forget the 440 vigilance. If i ever transported or carried a rifle over 50 lb and 80 plus inches long? So to be honest, No but I know that developing monster cartridges and feeding monster cartridges is expensive.

    the whole 50 bmg thing necked down to whatever... made me thinking about what will happen when neck down a 20mm or 14.5x114 to 50 bmg. Yes, I'm digging all over the internet for data on this. I even found a reamer print for a 50/20 cartridge.
    If I take the average of all the data I found. Then I end up at 3400-3500 fps with 800grain 50cal bullets. But I can't confirm it.
    A note regarding quick load. 1 day before Frank Green posted you can't just rely on quick load data, i said in a pm to someone on SH. I think quickload is a nice tool and it help to start load development but it's not real pressure messurement. Don't ask because what happens in a pm stays in a pm. I never publish pm's. But note, im not trying to shit on quick load data and i know you have more experience with pressure testing than I do.
    Of course, starting the thread with 750 grain bullets at 4000 fps sounded a bit like a overkill. I know you can't break the laws of physics, but maybe you can bend and stretch them a bit...
    I will never say i know more than Dan Warner. I will never say i know more than Frank Green. In the end I just want to find out what is possible with technology. And as a side note, I do believe if Frank Green wants, he can make the 12.7x114 elr capable and I also believe Dan Warner is smart enough and able to bring the 14.9 back to life.

    My only real mistake was believing that if I don't hear anything new about a cartridge for a few years, it will be a failure. That was my bad/mistake.

    So and now i ask you badassgunworks.
    Why you have never tried based on your ex nihilo cylinder to build a wildcat cartridge capable of firing 50 cal bullets at 3400-3500 fps?
     
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    coldboreAU

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    Can you really believe all that chatter Jeff Heeg said? I will say the Warner pushing the 416 vs 375 is a winner for throat life and a great round In that case as well.

    Cheers
    oneshot.onehit
    JH
    i can only read what i found on the Internet. Reading an article and believing an article are 2 different Things, at least for me. I have never posted a word about the 416 Warner. I'm talking about the .375 and can't say much about it. I think just necking a 50bmg down to .375 makes a shorter barrel life. A lot of powder through a smaller bore Diameter increase pressure= shorter barrel life.
    If you want, i can send you the link where i read it.
     

    oneshot.onehit

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    i can only read what i found on the Internet. Reading an article and believing an article are 2 different Things, at least for me. I have never posted a word about the 416 Warner. I'm talking about the .375 and can't say much about it. I think just necking a 50bmg down to .375 makes a shorter barrel life. A lot of powder through a smaller bore Diameter increase pressure= shorter barrel life.
    If you want, i can send you the link where i read it.
    JH under oneshot.onehit stands for Jeff Heeg.
    The 375 was a laser and a little tuff on the throat but at the end of the day it qualified for the top ten to be in the KO2M finale.
    Now with it necked up to a 416 Warner it is running very well and excellent barrel life.

    cheers
     
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    badassgunworks

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    @jasent slower powder already exists like S 101-01, 7 perforated powder from lovex. Even 19 perforated powders exist
    but I guess not available to the public.
    I posted a picture about the powder on page one. A note on 20mm bullets. look at the bottom, right corner on the next picture. Custom brass silver tip bullet... i'm not sure.View attachment 7865184

    @badassgunworks my intention was to find out where the maximum of feasibility really is. Let me tell you my thoughts,looking back at the regular 416 Barrett m99. 452 grain Bullet at around 3000 fps muzzle velocity. Then look at Paul Philipp's 416 barrett rifle, 550grain bullets at around 3000+ fps muzzle velocity. Now look at your 416 colossus... 525 grain bullets at 3300+ fps. That's a big big difference compared to where it started with the .416 calibers.
    Now to the 50 bmg. Yes, it's old technology, it's an old cartridge but why not develop the 50 caliber further in the same way as the 416 caliber???

    Please note i don't want to try to shit/badmouth the 375 Warner but at least as i know, the 375 Warner was basically a 50 bmg necked down to. 375.
    View attachment 7865195

    Yes, barrel life was short but was it a bad or stupid cartridge? I say no. A lot of people have necked down the 50 bmg to .416 .375 and not to forget the 440 vigilance. If i ever transported or carried a rifle over 50 lb and 80 plus inches long? So to be honest, No but I know that developing monster cartridges and feeding monster cartridges is expensive.

    the whole 50 bmg thing necked down to whatever... made me thinking about what will happen when neck down a 20mm or 14.5x144 to 50 bmg. Yes, I'm digging all over the internet for data on this. I even found a reamer print for a 50/20 cartridge.
    If I take the average of all the data I found. Then I end up at 3400-3500 fps with 800grain 50cal bullets. But I can't confirm it.
    A note regarding quick load. 1 day before Frank Green posted you can't just rely on quick load data, i said in a pm to someone on SH. I think quickload is a nice tool and it help to start load development but it's not real pressure messurement. Don't ask because what happens in a pm stays in a pm. I never publish pm's. But note, im not trying to shit on quick load data and i know you have more experience with pressure testing than I do.
    Of course, starting the thread with 750 grain bullets at 4000 fps sounded a bit like a overkill. I know you can't break the laws of physics, but maybe you can bend and stretch them a bit...
    I will never say i know more than Dan Warner. I will never say i know more than Frank Green. In the end I just want to find out what is possible with technology. And as a side note, I do believe if Frank Green wants, he can make the 12.7x144 elr capable and I also believe Dan Warner is smart enough and able to bring the 14.9 back to life.

    My only real mistake was believing that if I don't hear anything new about a cartridge for a few years, it will be a failure. That was my bad/mistake.

    So and now i ask you badassgunworks.
    Why you have never tried based on your ex nihilo cylinder to build a wildcat cartridge capable of firing 50 cal bullets at 3400-3500 fps?
    the 416 Barrett that Paul phillips shoots just right under 3000 fps has some bolt lift issues not sure about the Warner. i have a great deal of respect father and son Warners and would never want to dis respect them and what they do or design but that being said there is not a whole lot of options to choose from when it comes to working with available cases on big stuff. I would say they have done a great job with what is available and the next level following the same trend is the 20 mm case and i hope and have faith in there ability to make it work. Now as far as my projects i have the 458 goliath and the 510 ominus both are not the exnihilo based cases but much large. And stronger as to when i will get around to finalize them perhaps this summer. a side note my smaller 408 colossus out preforms the 416 barret using a 550 grain cutting edge bullet in every way with way. less recoil using a 450 grain badlands bullet and the 416 colossus stomps the 408 colossus and the 420 colossus will stomp the 416 . In short i hate recoil . There just is no need for it. I am not looking foward to pushing a 800 plus grain .510 to 3400 fps as recoil will be massave in a 50 lb rifle . As a side note the 416 colossus even at 3425 fps has no bolt lift issues at all one finger bolt lift.
     
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    coldboreAU

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    I know very well who is behind the nicknames. I know who you are and I also know about SH members who is behind which nickname but it's like i said. What happend in a pm stays in a pm. I write 10 times more pm's than i post questions here.
    The 375 was a laser and a little tuff on the throat but at the end of the day it qualified for the top ten to be in the KO2M finale.
    Yes I agree with you. So is there anything wrong with having a laser??? I say no!!! As for things like throat erosion and burned out barrels, I'll just say if someone wants a very very long barrel life. Then he should take grandfather's old 30-06 and be happy.LOL Without going to much off topic, everyone knows what he's buying. If someone want high end performance, then he should buy a high end cartridge and not crying about less barrel life.
     
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    coldboreAU

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    @badassgunworks,
    i absolutely understand what you mean. 3425 fps in .416 caliber is fast, no matter if 525 grain or 550 grain bullets. 3425 fps with such heavy bullets is fast. I try to classify calibers in 2 categories.
    Category 1. Calibers and elr builds that are usable and ko2m compliant.
    338 lm, 375 cheytac, 416 barrett, 375 warner, 416 warner, 408 colossus , 416 colossus and so on...
    Category 2. the really crazy monster wildcats. 12.7x114, 20/50, 14.9 SOP and so on.
    It's almost like 2 different worlds. No caliber restrictions, no weight limit. At the beginning of this conversation/Thread, many didn't even have a friendly word for the 12.7x114 cartridge. I don't know if you can hear it as i write things but I got high blood pressure sometimes. No matter whether the 12.7x114 cartridges or the 20mm cases. Some people didn't even try to give these cartridges a chance.
    I can understand that you don't like recoil. I also understand that it's a totally stupid idea to build a 40-50 lb heavy rifle, chambered in 12.7x 114 or 20/50.

    A word on respect at this point. I try to write in a nice way most of the time.
    But I always say what i think. Am I always right? No.(nobody is always right)
    Everyone has their own opinion. Do i respect your work? Do I respect the work of JH, Dan Warner, Frank Green? Yes . So far you've all done better than me.
    I'm just hungry for new wildcats and I like verified data. You Americans are simply incredibly brilliant at building wildcats and firearms. Questions like is it possible to accelerate 50cal 800 grain bullet to 3500+fps, based on a wildcat cartridge. I can't answer myself. Of course I can type numbers into grt (gordon's reloading tool) and quickload. But quickload is not a pressure test barrel, it's not a velocity test and sometimes the difference between practice and theory is huge. My only chance to find out more was to open the thread here and ask the major players. I know it takes a lot of time and money to develop monster cartridges.
    maybe some people would even say 50 cal bullets at 3500+fps is just dumb. It's okay, I can handle any opinion.

    But it was all about the physical feasibility. How fast you can fire 750-800grain 50bmg/.510 bullet when using a cartridge like 12.7x114 or 20/50.
     
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    badassgunworks

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    technical thoughts on this?
    No thanks way to over bore and cant use the capacity brass wont handle the pressure. Produced by useable capacity if you down load to to handle the pressure it will have ignition problems
     

    Dan Warner

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    The 375 Warner was the first iteration of our cartridge. The design was taken from the 14.9, with permission from the owner. JH is indeed correct; 3550 was easily done but at the expense of barrel life. At that point, we had no idea barrel like would be that short, specially since we enlisted the help of a company specializing in internal ballistics. So we made the obvious move to increase cross sectional bore density and necked it up to 416. It has about 20gr more capacity than the Barrett and will thake a 550gr projectile to 3100fps on the top end.

    The fact that others on this post continue to make false statements about a variety of facts is discouraging. I'd actually venture to say that components for these larger than 50cal cartridges are easier to get than the smaller stuff. Probably because there are fewer people trying to use them.

    Frank Green... we need to have a convo on this stuff. I had no ide you were into the bug cartridges to the extent you posted.
     

    oneshot.onehit

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    Honestly it’s these type of debates, discussions that keep folks pushing forward and doing what the majority say can’t be done. Everyone here that has been in these discussions is a strong value to our shooting community throughout the past and the future.

    Oneshot.onehit
     

    coldboreAU

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    There just is no need for it. I am not looking foward to pushing a 800 plus grain .510 to 3400 fps
    you think there's no need. I hope not everyone thinks so. Was there really a need to push 525 grain .416 cal to 3425 fps?
    In an older post you said that you expect 3500-3700 fps with your 420Blitzkrieg.
    (I can quote it if you want) was there a need? some would also say that there is no need for cartridges like 20/50, 14.9 SOP. I say there is always a need to push new Cartridges forward.
    Let me tell you what I think about wildcating a cartridge as best I can...

    take the 20mm vulcan cartridge and put it as a file in a 3D computer program. Now you can digitally make any changes you want. Shoulder angle, wall thickness, base diameter, rim diameter and so on... make it more or less capacity, make it more or less over bore. It's just like I said you can change anything you want. when all changes are done, save the file. Now contact RCC brass and tell them to make custom brass. ( send him the 3D file/Data)

    it doesn't matter whether I'm talking about the 12.7x114 or 20/50 or the 14.9.
    When you really want something, then you always find a way to get your goal.
     
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    coldboreAU

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    @oneshot.onehit
    i don't have as much knowledge as Dan Warner and 50west. But as Dan Warner said the 14.9 SOP will coming back on a hugh way.... I just thought yeah man. don't think twice, no matter what it takes, just make it happen.
    and I got a grin on my face.
     
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