Advanced Marksmanship 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

[Sterling Shooter]

Of course, the question is as absurd as the concept, unless you're prepping for "Night of the Living Dead"; yet, yesterday, while on the public range in my neighborhood, I was distracted by a guy shooting one of those. It appeared he was having a good time. I wondered though, what's the point? It would seem after a few rounds the concept would be unbearably boring, however, this guy went through several cases of shot-shells until he finally destroyed his two by four framed "bad guy" targets. What a big phrase "shooting community", from "bad guy" blasters to Olympic Biathlon marksmen.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

...guess it takes all kinds...

Me..., I think that's the <span style="font-style: italic">good</span> news...

Greg

PS ...and as always, I recommend the <span style="font-style: italic">20ga</span> Saiga for such exercises. ("an' twenty is plenty.")

 

[onechance]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

I have an Alliance Armament Wraithmaker 12 ga. full auto. It's 30" long and I have 1 30 rd. drum and 2 20 rd. drums. I use it for LE demonstrations. I don't see a problem with it. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: onechance</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have an Alliance Armament Wraithmaker 12 ga. full auto. It's 30" long and I have 1 30 rd. drum and 2 20 rd. drums. I use it for LE demonstrations. I don't see a problem with it. Different strokes for different folks.</div></div>

My point, although somewhat veiled, is that "shooting community" is a big universe where for most anyone, a foreign discipline might seem alien.

 

[Tucsondave]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

Shooting a Saiga is like riding a Harley. Its not the best handling,the fastest,or the most technologically advanced bike. But it sure is a blast to ride. Takes all kinds to make up a "community". Wave as I go by. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjo9Suwa75g

 

[Redmanss]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

Gave me a bit of the "WTF?!?!" until I saw who the OP was. I'm tracking with your intent Sterling.

While guys like that can be a bit distracting when you're trying to focus on precision marksmanship, I'm usually just happy to see someone shooting so long as it is done in a safe and responsible manner.

However I do get pissed when they blast the hell out of something then leave the target debris and wads strewn everywhere for someone else to clean up. The philosophy of "leave it better than you found it" is very ingrained into me.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gave me a bit of the "WTF?!?!" until I saw who the OP was. I'm tracking with your intent Sterling.

While guys like that can be a bit distracting when you're trying to focus on precision marksmanship, I'm usually just happy to see someone shooting so long as it is done in a safe and responsible manner.

However I do get pissed when they blast the hell out of something then leave the target debris and wads strewn everywhere for someone else to clean up. The philosophy of "leave it better than you found it" is very ingrained into me.</div></div>

My problem is I just don't understand it, that's to say, I don't get it, you know, the appeal in shooting somewhat mindlessly. I know about different strokes for different folks, and I think, hey, this is America, we're free to do mindless things; but, nevertheless, I don't get shooting 500 rounds of 12 ga shotshells rapid fire at a 7 yard bad guy target. Being a marketing guy, I think about things like this, but understanding this particular shooting endevor's appeal simply elludes me.

 

[turbo54]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

I identify mostly with precision marksmanship, but I own a Saiga 12, and I have the MD20 drums for it.

When I have a big shooting pit to work with, I certainly have fun chasing a cardboard box around under rapid fire. Obviously, the point of a shotgun with no choke whatsoever and an 18" barrel is intended to engage moving targets. Doing so is fun! I find it hard to believe the enthusiasts on this forum wouldn't enjoy a gas piston, semi-automatic 12 gague, a 20 round drum of #7 shot shells, and a pair of electic clay bird throwers launching birds 2 or 3 times per second.

A lot of folks with ARs and AKs think that WE are ridiculous for wanting to lay down in the dirt and only fire a round or two per minute.

OH: totally agree that people need to pick up their trash/debris after shooting at the pit. "The Pit" in Lapeer Michigan is apparently cleaned a couple times per year by prison inmates - which is a nice touch.

 

[Rotortuner]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

I also own a couple saigas, they are fun and Im with you in that i dont understand shooting 500 rnds at a square paper target. I have shot several hundred shells at a time, but its always at clays. A saiga and a couple of hand clar throwers make for a good time.

CJG

 

[notquiteright]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

It warms my heart to read this. it wasnt that long ago when some would look down at others and hold their own discipline above other's as 'more pure'.

Fact is the shooting community is large, (and a little scary at times). most of us have NO idea why others do the things they do.

From guys running around with super tricked out pistols blazing away like some video game, to guys wearing a half dozen jackets and an oven mit to shoot! They see something fun in what and how they do it that is lost on me.

But allus gut. It doesnt matter what I think of your style of shooting. Frankly I could care less what you think of what I like doing.

Now when it comes to litter bugs on the range-
I just figure those guys are Yankees and there is no accounting for them

 

[FNARSHOOTER]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

"You fight like you train"comes to mind. Maybe he was trying to build muscle memory. Then again maybe he was releasing some anger .I bet if you listened to what he was thinking It was somthing like"No you can't have a shotgun" or "You spent how much on ammo" followed by "eat this bitch"
Scot

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

As long as folks are shooting and doing it safely then I say "Have at it boys!"
Many times I have been to Knob Creek for the matches, gun show and main line show. You will see all kinds of people there but they all have a common idea.
God bless the 2nd Amendment!

 

[D_TROS]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rotortuner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also own a couple saigas, they are fun and Im with you in that i dont understand shooting 500 rnds at a square paper target. I have shot several hundred shells at a time, but its always at clays. A saiga and a couple of hand clar throwers make for a good time.

CJG </div></div>

My brother in law owns one and I have mag dumped it ($5 a box of twenty shells is almost same as a mag for an AR so many people are so fond of just unloading as fast as they can, which to me is the most irritating thing a person could do), and shot it at clays/prarie dogs. In its own, its fun. Not for me, but similiar to shooting full auto, you gotta try it at least once... I prefer my Benelli and think its much more fun/entertaining/challenging/etc shooting sporting clays, 2 at a time.

Regards,
_DT

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

You give folks full mags, they'll empty them.

I prefer to single feed...

 

[Graham]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

Tolerance isn't about leaving other people alone as long as they don't want to move into your neighborhood, it's about putting up with them and the things things you don't like about them in your neighborhood.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

My wife never got to fire full auto in the service so oneday I took her to an indoor range that rented MP5s down in Delaware.

Man the dirty looks we got!

At an international match a group of us took a Barrett 50 to a sight-in range where 50's are allowed. One old fart local came over to pitch his bitch like he owned the place.

We explained most the shooters couldnt shoot much less own such a weapon where they come from and we had checked, it was permitted.

He still bitched as he packed up and hauled out, promising he would stop by the office and let them know how upset he was!

Once upon a time we would burn-up all the excess '60 ammo by trying to chop down trees along the berm. just mindless blasting away.

Sometimes its all about the mindless fun.

 

[ckirkc]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

Sterling, new Saiga 12's sometimes require a several hundred round break-in period before they'll run properly. Its very possible and likely this gentlemen was actually just trying to break the gun in. or perhaps the gun didn't run at all when he bought it, he had work done, and what you saw was a function check. maybe he had 1 hr and 500 rounds to get an idea for what kind of reliability he could expect.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ckirkc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling, new Saiga 12's sometimes require a several hundred round break-in period before they'll run properly. Its very possible and likely this gentlemen was actually just trying to break the gun in. or perhaps the gun didn't run at all when he bought it, he had work done, and what you saw was a function check. maybe he had 1 hr and 500 rounds to get an idea for what kind of reliability he could expect.</div></div>

I suspect you're right, or perhaps he was just practicing for a role in "Night of The Living Dead part 2". I really don't know. Interestingly, speaking of mindless, I remember almost a decade ago, after wrapping up a juniors day long HP training session, the kid's dad said they were going to practice a little more on their own. As I was just getting out of the parking lot, looking back, I saw the kid, running through a 30 round mag just blasting at junk left out on the range with his match conditioned DPMS DCM rifle. Later, after close to a year of training to prep this kid for the National Matches, the kid said he was going to stay at home instead of making the trip to Camp Perry. He said it was more fun blasting junk. Today, juniors are vetted more carefully, as indeed there are kids out there that would rather have fun with reactive targets than with structured Bullseye events. As has earlier been said, different strokes for different folks.

 

[offroadr1]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

its not everyones thing, but people that are new or just fascinated by guns love shooting the saiga 12. every time a take someone new shooting, they want to shoot it. every time! girls like it too!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

I gotta say, I have some doubts about this entire thread.

Maybe I don't have dreams of rapidly emptying drum mags, but if it happens next to me and if it bothers me, I have no problem with packing things up and heading home to return another day. With a smile, even.

I don't even think about the legitimacy of the practice. I figure as long as the range dues are paid, nobody's taking rounds, the range doesn't take an undue beating, and any mess is dealt with properly, it's their range to use as they see fit, just as I do.

Jim Zumbo got into trouble by taking benign questions like this to an unnecessary length, and I think it was rightly so that he did. I also recognize that's <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">not</span></span> what's happening here, and I'm sorta hoping it doesn't go that way, either.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: offroadr1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its not everyones thing, but people that are new or just fascinated by guns love shooting the saiga 12. every time a take someone new shooting, they want to shoot it. every time! girls like it too!
</div></div>

So, what you're saying is it has a high cdi factor-chicks dig it!

Greg,

I leave everyone alone on the range. I don't offer advice unless it's asked for, and even then resist. But, I am alert, as it's my responsibility; and, often I get curious about why folks shoot the sort of guns they bring to the firing line. When I saw this guy tearing it up the other day it just made me wonder, nothing more than that. It's clear what entertains him would not entertain me. It does not matter what I think, of course; but, nevertheless, being a marketing guy, I still wonder what the appeal is here and what advertising copy might persuade a shooter with that sort of interest. It's fascinating. Also, why someone buys anything is their own business. I'm glad we live with the freedom to make choices, no matter what they are, that do not need to be justified to anybody. Buy a gun with or without a reason. My interest in this is just trying to understand why folks do what they do, what compels them. Again, this is all about me having a marketing interest where the search for appeal is ongoing.

BTW, the Saiga folks certainly know something about the market for their products, but, they're not revealing what they know.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

Charles;

I think you recognize that I was not criticising anyone in particular.

I was, instead, relating distant parallels and expressing some hope that this thread didn't follow the paths of some some not so recent debacles that did less good than otherwise.

I like the Saiga products. I just wish more of their products were actually available here, instead of being something like vaporware. My particular interest is in a Saiga .30-'06 rifle; not that I'm actually in a position to buy one at this particular moment.

Greg

 

[j-huskey]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

When I first saw this under advanced marksmanship, I said WTF, this has no business under advanced marksmanship, this is BS. After watching the thread develope, I understood why Charles posted it, didn't agree, but understood.

People shoot for a lot of reasons. That they shoot and promote the 2nd Amendment is as good a reason as any to support them, however they are shooting, without judging them against "my" standard.
I'm glad they are shooting their blaster and supporting the 2nd Amendment and the industry.

Charles, you make a mistake in not talking to those people with an open mind and opening a door for them to provide an opportunity to help them grow in the shooting sports. You fail to market something to them by not talking to them.

That was one of the "big" things that I remember from my "to be an NRA instructor" courses, to be open minded and willing to work with "all manner" of people as students to bring them in to our way of life.

Yes, its all about marketing, and in this case, your willingness to talk to them as a NRA instructor, where in your post above, "you wonder", well you missed a perfectly good opportunity to ask him and find out because nobody on this board can answer your question about the man who stood in front of you and presented himself to be asked.

You missed a chance and I wish you had not. Maybe next time, you will talk to him and you won't have to wonder.

 

[Redbeard80]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

I have a Tromix S17 the 8" barrel model with fedral low recoil buckshot or speer lawman buckshot it groups 8" sometimes a little smaller at 25 yards for a entry gun, home defence that is great. Also it is fun to shot clays with it you have to get them close and fast, which is good practice.

 

[taseal]

Re: 12Ga. Saiga with drum mag accuracy?

They're fun in their own ways... I know this dude on another forum who can't stand people who 'waste' ammo... he is a 'competition' shooter and thinks he's a bad motherfucker with his .260

he was calling the slide fire bump fire stock 'toy for idiots'

well, honestly, sometimes it's just fun to shoot full auto....

when we have extra ammo layign around and wanna have fun, we'll usually stick it in a SAW and let loose... i've never seen anyone put them in a rifle and start taking long prciesion slow fire shots....

it's just fun

plus a Saiga 12 can be devastating. imagine that thing clearing a room... I rather take my Saiga 12 with a 10 round mag then bring my M4 to clear a room...

and it's actually not too expensive... 100 rounds of birdshot for like 25 bucks...

Here is mine... it's the 1st thing I'm going for if someone tries to come in my home. I keep it with the 5 rounder on the shotgun. gonna get a 8 rounder for self defense/home use and 10 rounder for range... that 20 round drum is badass, but heavy as hell