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Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">32"!! Damn! </div></div>
Yes, which is why these threads make me giggle. It is also why I mentioned my F-T/R load is definitely not an all around load. I get a muzzle velocity of 2840FPS for that bullet in my rifle and that keeps the bullet above Mach 1.2 at 1000 yards and at 100ASL. The load is not a maximum load but since I reached the velocity I wanted and found an accuracy node above the desired velocity, there is no need to go higher.
I totally get the requirement for the short barrel, but I am telling you that when you shorten the barrel to 16 inches, you get a humonguous muzzle blast and the attendant low velocity, which makes the 16 inch barrel a very poor choice for 1000 yards. Will it hit at that range or further? Absolutely, just aim higher. It won't do it with any degree of reliability, especially if there is wind, but the bullet will get there. Eventualy.
You need to match the tool to the job and here we have two extremes; a 16 inch barrel and a 32 inch (very) heavy barrel. My rifle was put together specifically for F-T/R LR competition. I have yet to shoot it in competition at distances less than 800 yards. I can also tell you my arm gets tired carrying the rifle from the 800 to the 900 yard line. The stupid thing weighs 17+ pounds with bipod and scope; it's all barrel. A rifle with a 16 inch barrel will definitely be very handy and should be nice to carry, especially if it's not a heavy contour barrel. You just need to be aware of its limitations and its huge muzzle blast and don't take it to a LR match.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">32"!! Damn! </div></div>
Yes, which is why these threads make me giggle. It is also why I mentioned my F-T/R load is definitely not an all around load. I get a muzzle velocity of 2840FPS for that bullet in my rifle and that keeps the bullet above Mach 1.2 at 1000 yards and at 100ASL. The load is not a maximum load but since I reached the velocity I wanted and found an accuracy node above the desired velocity, there is no need to go higher.
I totally get the requirement for the short barrel, but I am telling you that when you shorten the barrel to 16 inches, you get a humonguous muzzle blast and the attendant low velocity, which makes the 16 inch barrel a very poor choice for 1000 yards. Will it hit at that range or further? Absolutely, just aim higher. It won't do it with any degree of reliability, especially if there is wind, but the bullet will get there. Eventualy.
You need to match the tool to the job and here we have two extremes; a 16 inch barrel and a 32 inch (very) heavy barrel. My rifle was put together specifically for F-T/R LR competition. I have yet to shoot it in competition at distances less than 800 yards. I can also tell you my arm gets tired carrying the rifle from the 800 to the 900 yard line. The stupid thing weighs 17+ pounds with bipod and scope; it's all barrel. A rifle with a 16 inch barrel will definitely be very handy and should be nice to carry, especially if it's not a heavy contour barrel. You just need to be aware of its limitations and its huge muzzle blast and don't take it to a LR match.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
if i get to feeling better I will take my 14.5 inch ar-10 to the farm this weekend and see if I can go to 1200 yards.... : )
if i get to feeling better I will take my 14.5 inch ar-10 to the farm this weekend and see if I can go to 1200 yards.... : )
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if i get to feeling better I will take my 14.5 inch ar-10 to the farm this weekend and see if I can go to 1200 yards.... : ) </div></div>
It will, just aim about 30 degrees up.
Hope you feel better soon.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if i get to feeling better I will take my 14.5 inch ar-10 to the farm this weekend and see if I can go to 1200 yards.... : ) </div></div>
It will, just aim about 30 degrees up.
Hope you feel better soon.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vmpgsc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">........or the truth coming out about the capabilities of a 16" barreled .308......</div></div>
If I wanted to maximize a 16" 308, here's the route I'd take (an Uber-Gladius):
Long action 700 (some will say why not 30-06 then?, I say too much muzzle blast, not enough velocity gain.)
1/10 twist bbl
Throated for 208 AMax at 3.00" OAL
Win brass
208 AMax
Moly
RL17
A good muzzle brake is a given.
I'm getting 2650 fps from a 20.5" 308 with 208s and '17. A 16" bbl would probably still get 2500 fps. Let the 208s BC do the rest. M118 is a handicap, but I understand if it's for Mil/LEO use.
</div></div>
Why the long action? So you can feed at 3.00" from the mag?
I say ditch the Remington and skip the problem. I can feed from the mag at 2.980" in my Savage.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vmpgsc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">........or the truth coming out about the capabilities of a 16" barreled .308......</div></div>
If I wanted to maximize a 16" 308, here's the route I'd take (an Uber-Gladius):
Long action 700 (some will say why not 30-06 then?, I say too much muzzle blast, not enough velocity gain.)
1/10 twist bbl
Throated for 208 AMax at 3.00" OAL
Win brass
208 AMax
Moly
RL17
A good muzzle brake is a given.
I'm getting 2650 fps from a 20.5" 308 with 208s and '17. A 16" bbl would probably still get 2500 fps. Let the 208s BC do the rest. M118 is a handicap, but I understand if it's for Mil/LEO use.
</div></div>
Why the long action? So you can feed at 3.00" from the mag?
I say ditch the Remington and skip the problem. I can feed from the mag at 2.980" in my Savage.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
Yes, I spec'd the long action for the 3.6" magazine.
2.98" from the Savage would do nicely too. and since it's already 1/10 twist, you almost there, if throat geometry is in harmony. Cut/brake/enjoy.
Yes, I spec'd the long action for the 3.6" magazine.
2.98" from the Savage would do nicely too. and since it's already 1/10 twist, you almost there, if throat geometry is in harmony. Cut/brake/enjoy.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, I spec'd the long action for the 3.6" magazine.
2.98" from the Savage would do nicely too. and since it's already 1/10 twist, you almost there, if throat geometry is in harmony. Cut/brake/enjoy. </div></div>
I had to use a throating reamer to push mine back .067".
3.6" is nice and long though, I think that would be a great OAL for '06 with 208s, but I'm sure the throat would need to be extended for that too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, I spec'd the long action for the 3.6" magazine.
2.98" from the Savage would do nicely too. and since it's already 1/10 twist, you almost there, if throat geometry is in harmony. Cut/brake/enjoy. </div></div>
I had to use a throating reamer to push mine back .067".
3.6" is nice and long though, I think that would be a great OAL for '06 with 208s, but I'm sure the throat would need to be extended for that too.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
Seating the 208 to 3.5" in the '06 puts about .304" of bearing surface inside the case.
My 30-06 throat is wearing a bit after nearly 5000 rounds. I'm kissing lands at 3.45" right now with the 208. Throat has advanced about .15" from when it was new.
Seating the 208 to 3.5" in the '06 puts about .304" of bearing surface inside the case.
My 30-06 throat is wearing a bit after nearly 5000 rounds. I'm kissing lands at 3.45" right now with the 208. Throat has advanced about .15" from when it was new.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
The key things here are using mil ammo 16" AR based rifle so all of the handloads with diferent projectiles dont even come into it. It also does not say how many shots were fired to hit the plate the first tims. It would be possible to get 2 hits in a row but what about the rest of them, if you throw enough lead down range soon enough sompthing will hit. ALso as LowLight said a 16" semi auto 308 will work well to 800 but past ehrer the results will not be as repetable.
If you were to shoot 1000 yards the longest barrel that you can comfortably use is the best. i am heading over for the state match rifle championships shot at 1000,1100 and 1200 yards tomorrow and in MatchRifle they are limited to a 308 but i am shooting F Class so a 7mm Rem SAUM will be fired by me as it kicks the ass of the 308 at those ranges. their are guys that have shot their 6mm Dashers with 107 sierra's and beet the 308's and most of the 308 shooters have a 34" barrel to get the most velocity they can they are also limited to 2.5kg barrel weight so 40" barrels cant fit into the weight limit.
So knowing what it takes to shoot a 308 to 1100 adn 1200 yards in a bolt action i dont think that the results are realistic expectation but someone might fluke it and then claim it is possible all the time.
as fot the challange to shoot a 168gr MatchKing to 1000 yards in a 26" barrel i have done it they shoot perfectly in a Sendero 300 ultramag lucky no money was on the chalange make sure you chose the cartrige next time.
The key things here are using mil ammo 16" AR based rifle so all of the handloads with diferent projectiles dont even come into it. It also does not say how many shots were fired to hit the plate the first tims. It would be possible to get 2 hits in a row but what about the rest of them, if you throw enough lead down range soon enough sompthing will hit. ALso as LowLight said a 16" semi auto 308 will work well to 800 but past ehrer the results will not be as repetable.
If you were to shoot 1000 yards the longest barrel that you can comfortably use is the best. i am heading over for the state match rifle championships shot at 1000,1100 and 1200 yards tomorrow and in MatchRifle they are limited to a 308 but i am shooting F Class so a 7mm Rem SAUM will be fired by me as it kicks the ass of the 308 at those ranges. their are guys that have shot their 6mm Dashers with 107 sierra's and beet the 308's and most of the 308 shooters have a 34" barrel to get the most velocity they can they are also limited to 2.5kg barrel weight so 40" barrels cant fit into the weight limit.
So knowing what it takes to shoot a 308 to 1100 adn 1200 yards in a bolt action i dont think that the results are realistic expectation but someone might fluke it and then claim it is possible all the time.
as fot the challange to shoot a 168gr MatchKing to 1000 yards in a 26" barrel i have done it they shoot perfectly in a Sendero 300 ultramag lucky no money was on the chalange make sure you chose the cartrige next time.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip)
If you were to shoot 1000 yards the longest barrel that you can comfortably use is the best. i am heading over for the state match rifle championships shot at 1000,1100 and 1200 yards tomorrow and in MatchRifle they are limited to a 308 but i am shooting F Class so a 7mm Rem SAUM will be fired by me as it kicks the ass of the 308 at those ranges. their are guys that have shot their 6mm Dashers with 107 sierra's and beet the 308's and most of the 308 shooters have a <span style="font-weight: bold">34" barrel to get the most velocity they can they are also limited to 2.5kg barrel weight</span> so 40" barrels cant fit into the weight limit.</div></div>
Are you sure? Two point five kilos is barely 5 pounds. At 34 inches, that must be one heck of a thin barrel, better used as a tomato plant stake. That's analoguous to a light varmint sporter barrel. It will heat up rapidly, yuck. I've never heard of that restriction in F-class,either open or T/R; this must be some sort of Aussie thing (need to check F-class rules in Australia). The barrel on my F-T/R 308 weighs in at just a shade under 9 pounds and it's only 32 inches.
Maybe the steel is lighter in Australia or the gravitational constant is not.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(Snip)
as fot the challange to shoot a 168gr MatchKing to 1000 yards in a 26" barrel i have done it they shoot perfectly in a Sendero 300 ultramag lucky no money was on the chalange make sure you chose the cartrige next time. </div></div>
I would be really appreciative if you could convice all my competitors to use the 168gr SMK bullet, just as long as I don't have to pull targets for any of them.
Also, I'm detecting a trend here. Others use .308 but you go and use a 7mm Rem SAUM (as it kicks the ass of the .308). Then you claim to have shot the 168 SMK to 1000 yards with no problem, "in a Sendero 300 ultramag." So, even though the thread here is ".308 at 1200 yards," you just tell us about how you shoot so much better, because you use a different caliber. Are you the type of guy who claims he can beat say any cyclist in the world, riding his motorcycle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip)
If you were to shoot 1000 yards the longest barrel that you can comfortably use is the best. i am heading over for the state match rifle championships shot at 1000,1100 and 1200 yards tomorrow and in MatchRifle they are limited to a 308 but i am shooting F Class so a 7mm Rem SAUM will be fired by me as it kicks the ass of the 308 at those ranges. their are guys that have shot their 6mm Dashers with 107 sierra's and beet the 308's and most of the 308 shooters have a <span style="font-weight: bold">34" barrel to get the most velocity they can they are also limited to 2.5kg barrel weight</span> so 40" barrels cant fit into the weight limit.</div></div>
Are you sure? Two point five kilos is barely 5 pounds. At 34 inches, that must be one heck of a thin barrel, better used as a tomato plant stake. That's analoguous to a light varmint sporter barrel. It will heat up rapidly, yuck. I've never heard of that restriction in F-class,either open or T/R; this must be some sort of Aussie thing (need to check F-class rules in Australia). The barrel on my F-T/R 308 weighs in at just a shade under 9 pounds and it's only 32 inches.
Maybe the steel is lighter in Australia or the gravitational constant is not.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(Snip)
as fot the challange to shoot a 168gr MatchKing to 1000 yards in a 26" barrel i have done it they shoot perfectly in a Sendero 300 ultramag lucky no money was on the chalange make sure you chose the cartrige next time. </div></div>
I would be really appreciative if you could convice all my competitors to use the 168gr SMK bullet, just as long as I don't have to pull targets for any of them.
Also, I'm detecting a trend here. Others use .308 but you go and use a 7mm Rem SAUM (as it kicks the ass of the .308). Then you claim to have shot the 168 SMK to 1000 yards with no problem, "in a Sendero 300 ultramag." So, even though the thread here is ".308 at 1200 yards," you just tell us about how you shoot so much better, because you use a different caliber. Are you the type of guy who claims he can beat say any cyclist in the world, riding his motorcycle?
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wild_Bill said:(snip)
I would be really appreciative if you could convice all my competitors to use the 168gr SMK bullet, just as long as I don't have to pull targets for any of them.
</div></div>
Sig, it isn't any fun unless someone catches some shrapnel in the face or head.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
I usually wear a wide brimmed hat and big glasses. It does get a little warm in the pits in south Texas so my arms are bare and I still have a little mark on my left hand from the last piece of jacket that came from a bullet hitting the target next to mine.
Hum, if I were John Kerry, I could have put in for a Purple Heart.
I usually wear a wide brimmed hat and big glasses. It does get a little warm in the pits in south Texas so my arms are bare and I still have a little mark on my left hand from the last piece of jacket that came from a bullet hitting the target next to mine.
Hum, if I were John Kerry, I could have put in for a Purple Heart.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't a keyholing tumbling 308 akin to throwing rocks? </div></div>
I sure wouldn't want to be hit by it
What the actual rifle was made for doing...close range(MOUT) multiple targets
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't a keyholing tumbling 308 akin to throwing rocks? </div></div>
I sure wouldn't want to be hit by it
What the actual rifle was made for doing...close range(MOUT) multiple targets
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Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
Must. Remain. Quiet. About. Bizarre. Shooting. Styles. In. Video.
Must. Remain. Quiet. About. Bizarre. Shooting. Styles. In. Video.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
While not ideal, a bullet can go trans-subsonic and keep on trucking with some level of predictability.
9" plate at that distance would require quite a few sighters to get the average dope and then some hits should start happening if the accuracy were there to begin with.
Like shooting a 22 LR in wind out to 300 yards.
first shot ain't likely but...........
While not ideal, a bullet can go trans-subsonic and keep on trucking with some level of predictability.
9" plate at that distance would require quite a few sighters to get the average dope and then some hits should start happening if the accuracy were there to begin with.
Like shooting a 22 LR in wind out to 300 yards.
first shot ain't likely but...........
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
Will factory ammo work fine for practicing up to 800 yards from a 26" barrel?
Will factory ammo work fine for practicing up to 800 yards from a 26" barrel?
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Must. Remain. Quiet. About. Bizarre. Shooting. Styles. In. Video. </div></div>
Its is a little different, guess thats how he controls the bi-pod hop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Must. Remain. Quiet. About. Bizarre. Shooting. Styles. In. Video.
Its is a little different, guess thats how he controls the bi-pod hop
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
Funny thread. The SMK 168 was said to resist tumbling better than other bullets and that it was a tumbling biotch. Which is it? Obviously even the "pros" can be wrong from time to time.
okie
Funny thread. The SMK 168 was said to resist tumbling better than other bullets and that it was a tumbling biotch. Which is it? Obviously even the "pros" can be wrong from time to time.
okie
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
The SMK 168 was designed for 600 yard competition, and excels there. I have seen people run it at 1000 yards by pushing it to 2900-2950, but as there are much better alternatives for 1000 yard paper punching competition (both lighter and heavier than 168), it begs the question; why?
The elevation difference surprised me the first time I shot 1000 yards at Raton, running a slow 155 through a 25" barrel, I needed 34 minutes of elevation to get to 1000 at my home range at 500' or so. The come-up for Raton was 29 min!
In my experience, it is possible to get good accuracy out of a .308 at 1200 yards, hell Monte Milanuk blew a spotter out (the spindle, not just hitting the cardboard) at 1200 at last year's 1200 yard F-Class Championship match, but I'll be honest, we were not disappointed too much if we leaked one out of the 10" "10" ring. I think Monte won this match with a 138 or 139 out of 150 possible, the bulk of the rest of us were 3-4 points below that. "X" count was... low!
We were playing this game with 155's running between 3000 and 3100 fps out of 30" barrels. If someone is finding a way to duplicate this with a 16" barrel, my hat is off to them. the high altitude helps, but the real feat here is the wind reading ability, and given Raton's notorious gales, is no small feat.
Darrell
The SMK 168 was designed for 600 yard competition, and excels there. I have seen people run it at 1000 yards by pushing it to 2900-2950, but as there are much better alternatives for 1000 yard paper punching competition (both lighter and heavier than 168), it begs the question; why?
The elevation difference surprised me the first time I shot 1000 yards at Raton, running a slow 155 through a 25" barrel, I needed 34 minutes of elevation to get to 1000 at my home range at 500' or so. The come-up for Raton was 29 min!
In my experience, it is possible to get good accuracy out of a .308 at 1200 yards, hell Monte Milanuk blew a spotter out (the spindle, not just hitting the cardboard) at 1200 at last year's 1200 yard F-Class Championship match, but I'll be honest, we were not disappointed too much if we leaked one out of the 10" "10" ring. I think Monte won this match with a 138 or 139 out of 150 possible, the bulk of the rest of us were 3-4 points below that. "X" count was... low!
We were playing this game with 155's running between 3000 and 3100 fps out of 30" barrels. If someone is finding a way to duplicate this with a 16" barrel, my hat is off to them. the high altitude helps, but the real feat here is the wind reading ability, and given Raton's notorious gales, is no small feat.
Darrell
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimResin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will factory ammo work fine for practicing up to 800 yards from a 26" barrel? </div></div>
IMHO, 800 yards is pushing it for factory ammo, not from a retained velocity standpoint, but because *any* factory ammo will have troubles with vertical stringing due to differing velocities. I guess too, it depends on what you're shooting at. It would make a 1/2 min. target difficult.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimResin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will factory ammo work fine for practicing up to 800 yards from a 26" barrel? </div></div>
IMHO, 800 yards is pushing it for factory ammo, not from a retained velocity standpoint, but because *any* factory ammo will have troubles with vertical stringing due to differing velocities. I guess too, it depends on what you're shooting at. It would make a 1/2 min. target difficult.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
11x7" steel piece. I am going to buy reloading equipment over the winter but for now I have 400 rounds of factory ammo. Also it seems cheaper to buy factory ammo and then use the brass instead of buying the brass brand new.
11x7" steel piece. I am going to buy reloading equipment over the winter but for now I have 400 rounds of factory ammo. Also it seems cheaper to buy factory ammo and then use the brass instead of buying the brass brand new.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
Tim,
If it was me, I'd move up to 600 yards and use the 400 rounds for position and wind reading practice. You won't be fighting the random variable of where the factory load will go. Most times, of course, it will impact where expected, but for those that don't, you will have to question; was that errant shot me, the wind, or the ammo? Not a good situation for developing skills
What brand of cases does your factory ammo use?
As to cost of new cases, 1000 Winchester cases typically runs ~$300-$350, depending on where you find them
Darrell
Tim,
If it was me, I'd move up to 600 yards and use the 400 rounds for position and wind reading practice. You won't be fighting the random variable of where the factory load will go. Most times, of course, it will impact where expected, but for those that don't, you will have to question; was that errant shot me, the wind, or the ammo? Not a good situation for developing skills
What brand of cases does your factory ammo use?
As to cost of new cases, 1000 Winchester cases typically runs ~$300-$350, depending on where you find them
Darrell
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
Tim,
The factory ammo I am issued for duty and most schools is the 168gr Federal Gold Metal Match. For man sized targets to 800 it's adequate. If I was competing then it would not be. The windage is excessive compared to my 175 and 155gr handloads.
The 168gr FGMM out of my 26" factory Remington barrel will go transonic somewhere between 900 and 1000 yards at 400'ASL around 60*F.
I guess it really depends on what you are practicing for. If you plan on shooting matches with handloads, then practice with handloads. I am issued 168FGMM for duty so I need to practice with it.
The last 1K session I was shooting we were fighting a 15mph fishtailing wind. It would actually change direction while the bullet was in flight. I would place a round in one side of the target, then have to hold 180* the other way and throw one just off the silhouette. What shooting at this range with an "inferior" round does is require that you are absolutely perfect with your inputs.
I probably don't have the experience Darrell has, but some factory ammo is pretty dang consistent. You just have to learn to work inside of its limitations.
Tim,
The factory ammo I am issued for duty and most schools is the 168gr Federal Gold Metal Match. For man sized targets to 800 it's adequate. If I was competing then it would not be. The windage is excessive compared to my 175 and 155gr handloads.
The 168gr FGMM out of my 26" factory Remington barrel will go transonic somewhere between 900 and 1000 yards at 400'ASL around 60*F.
I guess it really depends on what you are practicing for. If you plan on shooting matches with handloads, then practice with handloads. I am issued 168FGMM for duty so I need to practice with it.
The last 1K session I was shooting we were fighting a 15mph fishtailing wind. It would actually change direction while the bullet was in flight. I would place a round in one side of the target, then have to hold 180* the other way and throw one just off the silhouette. What shooting at this range with an "inferior" round does is require that you are absolutely perfect with your inputs.
I probably don't have the experience Darrell has, but some factory ammo is pretty dang consistent. You just have to learn to work inside of its limitations.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
Just ask ML what the bullet and its muzzle velocity are. You can figure out the rest with an external ballistics calculator. No magic here, just Newtonian physics.
Just ask ML what the bullet and its muzzle velocity are. You can figure out the rest with an external ballistics calculator. No magic here, just Newtonian physics.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The barrel on my F-T/R 308 weighs in at just a shade under 9 pounds and it's only 32 inches.
</div></div>
Holy hell! *Thats* a barrel!
I like the 30" "bull" (.999" @ muzzle) taper, it weighs in at 6lb 5oz. I'm doing a new rifle build for F-T/R class next week and I'm looking at some fluting to get the weight down a bit (so as to still run Nightforce glass and Sinclair bipod).
As regards good (*excellent*) factory ammo, I have used HSM 175 grain "police" ammo in a number of sniper matches back to 700 yards with excellent results. Naturally the targets were simply man sized silhouettes and steel, but the accuracy was quite good. Moreover, the sD of the HSM was also good (15-18fps), which probably was the reason for its accurate performance at longer range. The best part of the HSM is that it is loaded in Winchester cases... perfect for reloading!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The barrel on my F-T/R 308 weighs in at just a shade under 9 pounds and it's only 32 inches.
</div></div>
Holy hell! *Thats* a barrel!
I like the 30" "bull" (.999" @ muzzle) taper, it weighs in at 6lb 5oz. I'm doing a new rifle build for F-T/R class next week and I'm looking at some fluting to get the weight down a bit (so as to still run Nightforce glass and Sinclair bipod).
As regards good (*excellent*) factory ammo, I have used HSM 175 grain "police" ammo in a number of sniper matches back to 700 yards with excellent results. Naturally the targets were simply man sized silhouettes and steel, but the accuracy was quite good. Moreover, the sD of the HSM was also good (15-18fps), which probably was the reason for its accurate performance at longer range. The best part of the HSM is that it is loaded in Winchester cases... perfect for reloading!
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just ask ML what the bullet and its muzzle velocity are. You can figure out the rest with an external ballistics calculator. No magic here, just Newtonian physics. </div></div>
Lets see here I DID ask ML what the MV was ....... he didnt say ..... beat around the bush and never answered the question.
ML DID say that Mr Coker was shooting M118LR .... so thats what a 175?
I still dont know if I am believing everything. But I will say this I am not calling BS until they are in the general populations hands and cant do what he claims ........ but with a limited number of completed rifles being tested ....... yeah its possible, and I have the thought of "trust but verify". I will believe him now until I am proven wrong.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just ask ML what the bullet and its muzzle velocity are. You can figure out the rest with an external ballistics calculator. No magic here, just Newtonian physics. </div></div>
Lets see here I DID ask ML what the MV was ....... he didnt say ..... beat around the bush and never answered the question.
ML DID say that Mr Coker was shooting M118LR .... so thats what a 175?
I still dont know if I am believing everything. But I will say this I am not calling BS until they are in the general populations hands and cant do what he claims ........ but with a limited number of completed rifles being tested ....... yeah its possible, and I have the thought of "trust but verify". I will believe him now until I am proven wrong.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
hmmmm yea.....sounds real cool. DEE DEE DEE!
hmmmm yea.....sounds real cool. DEE DEE DEE!
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darrell Buell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The barrel on my F-T/R 308 weighs in at just a shade under 9 pounds and it's only 32 inches.
</div></div>
Holy hell! *Thats* a barrel!
I like the 30" "bull" (.999" @ muzzle) taper, it weighs in at 6lb 5oz. I'm doing a new rifle build for F-T/R class next week and I'm looking at some fluting to get the weight down a bit (so as to still run Nightforce glass and Sinclair bipod).
</div></div>
Yeah, I'm all about the barrel. It's a Broughton 7.9B contour and the Broughton website says that at the finished length of 31 inches it's 8.9 pounds. I did not weigh it when I gave it to the gunsmith to install. I have a Sinclair bipod but I run a Weaver T-36, not a Nightforce and that saves me a pound right there. The whole thing weighs 17.5 pounds; With the barrel and the scope, I'm at 12 pounds, with the remainder for the action, stock and rings.
I'm a little suprised that your heavier contour barrel only weight 6.4 pounds, the website shows the 7.97 contour to be 9.4 pounds at 31 inches. Maybe the steel used is heavier.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darrell Buell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The barrel on my F-T/R 308 weighs in at just a shade under 9 pounds and it's only 32 inches.
</div></div>
Holy hell! *Thats* a barrel!
I like the 30" "bull" (.999" @ muzzle) taper, it weighs in at 6lb 5oz. I'm doing a new rifle build for F-T/R class next week and I'm looking at some fluting to get the weight down a bit (so as to still run Nightforce glass and Sinclair bipod).
</div></div>
Yeah, I'm all about the barrel. It's a Broughton 7.9B contour and the Broughton website says that at the finished length of 31 inches it's 8.9 pounds. I did not weigh it when I gave it to the gunsmith to install. I have a Sinclair bipod but I run a Weaver T-36, not a Nightforce and that saves me a pound right there. The whole thing weighs 17.5 pounds; With the barrel and the scope, I'm at 12 pounds, with the remainder for the action, stock and rings.
I'm a little suprised that your heavier contour barrel only weight 6.4 pounds, the website shows the 7.97 contour to be 9.4 pounds at 31 inches. Maybe the steel used is heavier.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm a little suprised that your heavier contour barrel only weight 6.4 pounds, the website shows the 7.97 contour to be 9.4 pounds at 31 inches. Maybe the steel used is heavier. </div></div>
Whoops, my bust. I was looking at the wrong column in the excel sheet. My current barrel is actually 6lb 10oz. The other thing to keep in mind is that this barrel is a stock 30" Savage, so it doesn't have the large diameter shank. Just forward of the threads, the OD is 1.11" which tapers smoothly to the muzzle at .999. I'm guessing that your shank diameter is at least .125" larger for at least 6" of the initial length. That accounts for about .45 lbs, the additional 2" of barrel length accounts for another .36 lb. The density difference in the typical range of barrel steels is fairly negligable.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm a little suprised that your heavier contour barrel only weight 6.4 pounds, the website shows the 7.97 contour to be 9.4 pounds at 31 inches. Maybe the steel used is heavier. </div></div>
Whoops, my bust. I was looking at the wrong column in the excel sheet. My current barrel is actually 6lb 10oz. The other thing to keep in mind is that this barrel is a stock 30" Savage, so it doesn't have the large diameter shank. Just forward of the threads, the OD is 1.11" which tapers smoothly to the muzzle at .999. I'm guessing that your shank diameter is at least .125" larger for at least 6" of the initial length. That accounts for about .45 lbs, the additional 2" of barrel length accounts for another .36 lb. The density difference in the typical range of barrel steels is fairly negligable.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sig685, What do you recommend for an any alt .308 F T/R load? I know your an accomplished F-Class shooter so if its good for F-Class it should be good all around. Thanks in advance! </div></div>
JFC: What barrel twist and length? If it is in the 28-30" 1:12 range, consider a "fast" "modern" 155 grain load. as a general rule, we are seeing these outperform the heavier stuff, at least until you get into the 185 grain range, then the differences even out again if you can push the 185's fast enough. If it helps, the entire US F-T/R Team ran 155's at the World Championships this summer. At least the top 6 positions at F-T/R Nationals were running 155's.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sig685, What do you recommend for an any alt .308 F T/R load? I know your an accomplished F-Class shooter so if its good for F-Class it should be good all around. Thanks in advance! </div></div>
JFC: What barrel twist and length? If it is in the 28-30" 1:12 range, consider a "fast" "modern" 155 grain load. as a general rule, we are seeing these outperform the heavier stuff, at least until you get into the 185 grain range, then the differences even out again if you can push the 185's fast enough. If it helps, the entire US F-T/R Team ran 155's at the World Championships this summer. At least the top 6 positions at F-T/R Nationals were running 155's.
Re: 16" .308 at 1200 yards...
This thread is great; it has it all!
Let me gently disagree somewhat with Darrell here. One does not have to go to the 185 or greater to balance out velocity Vs high BC, which is really what this is all about.
I found the 180gr JLK LBT to be an excellent LR bullet for .308 Winchester but it needs to be driven fast to do well at 1000 yards. The astute reader will have noticed that I did not recommend anything to JFComfort, what I did do is describe what I was doing in terms of long barrel and higher weight and BC bullet.
Let me say that I do agree with Darrell about using the 168 or the 175 instead of the new 155, but I do believe that driving the 180JLK faster by using a longer barrel (32 inches,) makes the load a better performer. I always say that I am a barrel guy, or "it's all about the barrel." I am consistent in that and I believe a longer launch pad makes a difference. I don't believe the stock Savage F-T/R is available with a longer barrel.
However, it is hard to argue with success and Darrell and the rest of the Team USA F-T/R have done very well with their concept. I also think the 155gr is easier to develop a load and handload for compared to the VLD design of the JLK.
So, there you have it, two methods: fast and light bullets with good BC; not quite as fast and heavier bullets with much better BC.
You will have noticed neither of the two methods are using 16 inch barrels.
This thread is great; it has it all!
Let me gently disagree somewhat with Darrell here. One does not have to go to the 185 or greater to balance out velocity Vs high BC, which is really what this is all about.
I found the 180gr JLK LBT to be an excellent LR bullet for .308 Winchester but it needs to be driven fast to do well at 1000 yards. The astute reader will have noticed that I did not recommend anything to JFComfort, what I did do is describe what I was doing in terms of long barrel and higher weight and BC bullet.
Let me say that I do agree with Darrell about using the 168 or the 175 instead of the new 155, but I do believe that driving the 180JLK faster by using a longer barrel (32 inches,) makes the load a better performer. I always say that I am a barrel guy, or "it's all about the barrel." I am consistent in that and I believe a longer launch pad makes a difference. I don't believe the stock Savage F-T/R is available with a longer barrel.
However, it is hard to argue with success and Darrell and the rest of the Team USA F-T/R have done very well with their concept. I also think the 155gr is easier to develop a load and handload for compared to the VLD design of the JLK.
So, there you have it, two methods: fast and light bullets with good BC; not quite as fast and heavier bullets with much better BC.
You will have noticed neither of the two methods are using 16 inch barrels.
