175SMK + 47gr Varget?

[orkan]

Doing a little load development tonight. I always start out by laddering up just to see where pressure starts in.

Action - lawton 7000 repeater
Barrel - 18" Lawton 308 3-groove

Brass: Winchester
Primer: CCI 200
Powder: Varget
Bullet: 175SMK

Primers are flat from 42gr - 47gr. No cratering, no split necks. Bolt wasn't stiff at 47gr. I usually hit pressure around 45... so I was quite surprised to see this. I didn't go above 47... but it would appear that I could.

The next step would be to load a few from 44gr and up for groups and slinging through the chrono. Wondering if I should test at 47 and consider that for a full time load. I've seen plenty of folks running 45 under 175, but 47 is a bit higher... and gives me pause, even though I'm not running into pressure. (at least that I'm seeing)

Thoughts?

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Dude, that is a frigging lot. I've never seen a .308 handle more than about 45.8. What speed is it pushing? You have pictures of the brass?

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

I can take some quick. Give me 5 minutes.

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Given the differences of lot to lot of Varget-47grs is a HOT load. Question is-how do it shoot?

Granted you got a short tube-but what velocities are you trying for? 47 under a 155scenar would be screaming.

That's a top notch action-strong as hell and has alot of camming power. I'd worry less about the chrono and see how it groups.

 

[wirehand]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

What is the temps during shooting ?
Eventhough Varget is more temp stable there will be a point.
My thoughts are it won't be as forgiving in the summer.

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Temps are pretty much room temp. Didn't shoot for groups yet. Just considering even TRYING 47, as I know its up there. Wanted a second opinion. (or third or fourth)

I took the rounds, single loaded them, and opened my door and shoot them into my dirt pile. Just pressure testing. So temp is basically room temp. 70f. The powder/brass/barrel might be 60f at the lowest. (since the gun sits by an exterior wall)

Here are the pics. Left to right: 44gr, 45, 46, 47gr.

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Granted you got a short tube-but what velocities are you trying for? </div></div>

I'd really like to get 2650-2700. ... but obviously accuracy is main concern and goal.

I basically just wanted to run it by some of you folks that are more knowledgeable than myself and get your thoughts on whether I should even try... even IF I'm not showing pressure.

 

[wirehand]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Don't look bad.
Next step would be measuring between the base and at the web.
OAL ?

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

I've seen worse with less...

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

OAL - 2.800

2.210 to ogive.

Believe me, I was as shocked as you guys are. I couldn't believe I could even lift the bolt, much less not see pressure on winny brass.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

The pix aren't good enough to look for ejector pin marks, so have a look yourself. I gotta say I've never even heard of anyone shooting 47 grains of Varget with a 175SMK. Please take a "Before" picture of your rifle, just in case.

Stay safe.

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OAL - 2.800

2.210 to ogive.

Believe me, I was as shocked as you guys are. I couldn't believe I could even lift the bolt, much less not see pressure on winny brass. </div></div>

Famous last words. I din't think you could fit 47gr. in a winchester case. How long is your drop tube? It has got to be a compressed load. IMO, 43.5 to start and see how it shoots. YOU shoot a string of 40 rounds in the heat of summer-I'll bet you'll see some pressure signs.

Although you probably won't have to deprime the cases!! You'll find them in the mag well!

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

I usually stop when I see ejector pin marks... but I don't have any here, even at 47gr. Which is why I was baffled.

I loaded up 5 more at 47 and shot them just now. Still no signs of pressure. I've never seen this before in my life. I agree with what has been stated, and it is likely I won't end up at 47.

For the record, I'm not using a drop tube. Just a funnel. 47gr fills the case right to the bottom of the neck. With a drop tube, I could pack even more!

 

[One_Man]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Holy Sh*t! I am using 47.0gr with a 125gr Berger FB Match but Lapua brass. Fills the case halfway up the neck. Are you seating the 175 SMK long?

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

are you sure your scales are accurate

 

[dvdt]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

No expert here, but is there any chance your Varget might have an issue? I'd shoot (pun intended) the lot # to Hodgdon and see if they know of any issues. Hell, for that matter post it up here too.

FWIW, I'm running 42.4 gr Varget and my lapua cases are pretty damn full.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are you sure your scales are accurate </div></div>
My thought exactly.

 

[SScott]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are you sure your scales are accurate </div></div>
+1, also get some crono data.
SScott

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

They have been to this point. I throw onto the 5-0-5, then double check on a My Weigh Gem Pro 250(calibrated) and checked against check weights. All is fine. I've used this 5-0-5 for about 6 years, and the my weigh gem pro for the last 3 or so, and have not experienced any problems with weight. My 30gram check weight registers 463gr on the nose, and google says that 30 grams = 462.970751 grains. So at most, I'm off 3 hundredths of a grain. Acceptable in my book.

Prior to this, I saw pressure on several of my other rem700 SPS's at around 45.8gr, if not sooner. This is the only custom tube I have, or I'd be able to compare there as well.

As for the varget... its possible that it may be tainted, but unlikely... as I always mix powders. In this case, I had 5 1 lb bottles that I mixed together. I load tested out of this batch for a different rifle and things went as expected there, so I wouldn't lean toward the powder at this point.

The winchester brass is pretty thin, so I know it can take a bit more powder than the LC LR or lapua.

By all means gentlemen, keep firing away at me and I'll keep answering the best I can. This just seems unusual, and safety is always my #1 concern when reloading. Has anyone else been able to approach 47gr varget with my components? How close did you get?

Parkinsence, I'm seating 2.210 to ogive. Definitely not long. I planned to run out to 2.220 and do some testing after I get my powder charge narrowed down. My chamber measures 2.230, FYI.

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

I just pulled out 2 more separate 20gram check weights and both registered 308.65gr. Google says 20 grams = 308.647167 grains. So again, 3 hundredths of a grain off. Its not the scales.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

WOW!!! 47gr Varget and 175SMK's at 2.800 OAL, and your primer still has a radius around the edge??

You may have some bunk Varget there, that load under a 175 should have you beating the bolt handle with a 2X4 to get it open!!

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that load under a 175 should have you beating the bolt handle with a 2X4 to get it open!! </div></div>

My thought exactly. ... but I'm not.

 

[USMCj]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

most I have gone was 45gr! Vargay with the 175s. 47 seems way too hot to me.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

WOW brass looks good and your really packing that hole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[paul T]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Whats groups like.

 

[acehigh]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

were all 5 of the 1# cans the same lot#? I've never mixed powder period. Much less from different lot #'s. If it's normal Varget, I can't even get 47 gr's in a case. ANY case. Can you post your lot #'s? I guarantee that someone on this site has some of the same lot #. I've got a few 1# bottles from 3 or 4 years back.
jh

 

[81STFACP]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The winchester brass is pretty thin, so I know it can take a bit more powder than the LC LR or lapua.

</div></div>

What is the water weight capacity of that particular Winchester brass?

 

[Domestique]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Something seems amiss here. I cant fit much more than 45 grains into my Winchester brass with a 2.81" COAL.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

A: 47.0 gr Varget is really hot behind 175 gr of anything in 308
B: you can get 47.8 gr into a Win case and it is over 1/2 way up the neck
C: Can't understand why you are not seeing massive pressure issues
D: 47.8 is right on the edge of sane pressures in 155 gr.

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

A) I agree.
B) Yes, that is pretty much what I'm seeing. They hold more than you'd think.
C) I don't understand it either, hence my post.

D) 155 is a lot lighter than 175, hence my post.

As for varget lots:
Most came from lot 4719.
4744, 4720 were also in the mix. I stirred up 3 1lb 4719 with 1 4744 and 1 4720. I normally use 8lb'ers... but I had a few little jugs sitting around so I figured I'd use them up.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Orkan,

A) Your 2 grains over MAX, according to Hodgdon
B) If you can get 47 grains into the case, whoopie for you.
C) Every rifle is different:

You may not be seeing pressure signs, because maybe 47 grains is not MAX IN YOUR RIFLE, at these temps and the powder lot #.

A MAX load is just a guide. Some rifles reach MAX at lower charges, some will reach MAX at higher charges. A better question is what's your velocity? You can almost bet that if your above 2690 FPS (Hodgdon uses a 24" pressure barrel) with that load, then you are over pressure. If your below that velocity, maybe not.......

As an illustration, I had a factory Sako 9.3x62 I reloaded for. My max charge was 10 grains (not lying) over the Speer book MAX. My velocity was 56 FPS under the Speer book MAX. That load ( 10 grains over) was perfectly safe in that rifle only.

I also had a 7mm Rem mag, that when Hodgden released there # 26 manual, my load (considered safe in manual 24) was now 5 grains over max with H-1000. In fact the old minimum was now over the MAX load. I did not change a thing, and keep right on trucking with the old load, in that rifle.

But understand you are in uncharted territory. All rifles do not show pressure the same way. Some will crater primers with less than max loads. That's a rifle problem of course, and not a load problem, but it does take some experience to recognize the differences.

Not saying that your inexperienced, but you do need to tread lightly. It is more important to be safe, and accurate, than
chase that last 50 FPS.

YMMV....

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But understand you are in uncharted territory. All rifles do not show pressure the same way. Some will crater primers with less than max loads. That's a rifle problem of course, and not a load problem, but it does take some experience to recognize the differences.

Not saying that your inexperienced, but you do need to tread lightly. It is more important to be safe, and accurate, than
chase that last 50 FPS.

YMMV....
</div></div>

Thanks Bob, you are exactly right. Thats why I posted up here. When in uncharted territory, I call upon the vast knowledge base here.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EdZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Something seems amiss here. I cant fit much more than 45 grains into my Winchester brass with a 2.81" COAL. </div></div>

Last month I loaded up 46.5 grs of Varget in Win 2x brass under 155 gr Scenars and I still had enough room to get to the promisted land of 47.7 grs.

Those were 155s however, not 175s.

47grs of Varget is easy in Win brass.

Chris

 

[Australian shooter]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Interesting results Orkan,
I have used up to 48grn of Varget (ADI 2208) with 168grn Sierras, with no problems, but it was not an accurate load!!! and booted too hard.


for you reference
http://www.adi-limited.com/handloaders-guide/rifle.asp (the varget manufactures web page an loading data)

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

orkan,
ran some #'s for you on quickload.
18" barrel/47gr Varget/ 175gr SMK
COAL 2.80
start pressure of 3626psi
chamber pressure =71,828psi
velocity=2669fps
quikload is telling me you are over pressure, but the round edge of your primers is saying something different.Also, don't see any major cratering in the primer. Try and measure your expansion on the brass just ahead of the web, anything over .005 I would back off.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Hi i would back it down to 45gr MAX and see how it shoots you might not be seing pressure but i assure you it is there. Cases wont crach necks with hot loads but the primer pockets will losen up but the main concern is your barrel and lugs. If you continuasly shoot these loads that are around proof testing loads you can create stress fractures in the barrel and lugs over time with catastrofic results, Win brass is very large in volume but dont go mad if you have a short barrel you will get a lower velocity just read the wind and dial the elevation you will likley find that the groups will get smaller around the 45gr mark compared to that excessive hot load. I would not load any more if i was you and if you were shooting at my range and told me that that load was the one you were using i would not let you shoot them as you are way overloaded and that is when people get hurt.

I hope you find a good accurate load shit you are looking to get a velocity that is comparable to a 26" barrel from your 18" barrel if you want velocity mabe you should have got that longer barrel or mabe try RE17 it might help you get the velocity but it probably wont outshoot the 45gr Varget i also like to use Lapua cases as they are much better in the long term than Win brass all the Win brass we get here is crap.

Good Luck and stay safe

 

[AUJohn]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Stupid hot loads are bad.

Chrono the loads NOW. Working up using the velocity increase drop off point to see where you are about to spike.
If you are not getting a spike at that level "something" is up. Scales, powder or some other factor. If you are riding the spike (you will be) then you are going to be in for a little (or big) shock one day

I'm not a big fan of needing a Chrono but in this sort of situation where you are pushing over the limits you need everything you can use.

Brass is a best guess and nothing more. when other factors (common sense as an example) tell you you are way up there you need to work out what's going on. It's "odd" that you are not seeing primer flow but ASSUMING it's safe due to the lack of it is insane.

I would also test for peak accuracy from a lower level.


(and possibly seek the help of a competent adult before loading more)

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Yeah... I realize its over max, and am taking necessary precautions. Still doesn't mean its showing pressure. I have a batch I'm going to shoot today. 43-47gr in .5gr increments. Will be sending them across the chrono today if the wind holds.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah... I realize its over max, and am taking necessary precautions. Still doesn't mean its showing pressure. I have a batch I'm going to shoot today. 43-47gr in .5gr increments. Will be sending them across the chrono today if the wind holds. </div></div>

Just mic your case head/web area on your brass, just above the extractor groove.

It should be .4703". If it's much larger than that, you're blowing out your brass. This is a better indicator of pressure and potential case head separation than anything else. You'll want a precision mic to accomplish this task.

Chris

 

[69daytona]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

47.5gr of Varget behind the 155Palma is what a good friend of mine uses for Palma matches it comes out the end at 2850 with a 30" barrel and 1-13.5 twist. I would think that load behind a 175smk with a tighter twist would give some pretty high pressure but apperantly your rifle handles it well. I would do what others are asking you to do and meausure the web area. No sense in takeing a chance for a few extra fps.

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It should be .4703". If it's much larger than that, you're blowing out your brass. This is a better indicator of pressure and potential case head separation than anything else. You'll want a precision mic to accomplish this task.

Chris </div></div>

Unfortunately I don't have a precision mic. (yet)

Using my caliper, I get a measurement of .4710. This is the same on all brass from 43gr up to 47gr.

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Lt. Arclight: No problems, I can fit 48gr of Varget in Win .308 cases with only a 5" drop tube and it's just at the neck shoulder junction. However, I'd imagine with a 175 SMK, it would be all sorts of crunchy and probably push the bullet back out somewhat.

Orkan: = I've never seen 47gr of Varget with a 175. I'd chrony that load working up from 45.5 to 47. I'm guessing somewhere in the 46.4 - 46.8 range FPS is going to start to decline - that should open your eyes quickly and tell you to back off on the charge weight.

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mavrick10_2000</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm guessing somewhere in the 46.4 - 46.8 range FPS is going to start to decline</div></div>

Hit it right on the nose. I started seeing velocity drop at 46.5gr. I didn't bother to shoot the 47's after that.

I'll post all the chrono data later when I've got more time.

 

[chung400ramair]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

orkan your fellow shooters here @ the Hide have explored most all the avenues of approach to the fact that your rifle can and has fired this recipe w/o ill results. Two other things you may do can bring empirical facts to help clarify this conundrum better, the suggestions of knowing the FPS of the load thru chrono by fellow Hide responders is good. Second, i am sure a call to the makers of Varget will (probably) open the doors to a test in their facilities of your current blend for pressure and other factoids pertaining to your load. i would ask if they wouldn't mind taking delivery of a few of your prepared rounds. look forward for your updates. KYPD

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

Chrono results:

<span style="font-weight: bold">44gr</span>
2510
2534
2511
2520
2496
Avg - 2514
ES - 22
SD - 7.0

<span style="font-weight: bold">44.5</span>
2524
2544
2535
2508
2519
Avg - 2526
ES - 36
SD - 12.3

<span style="font-weight: bold">45</span>
2551
2573
2558
2567
2570
Avg - 2563
ES - 22
SD - 7.0

<span style="font-weight: bold">45.5</span>
2574
2573
2565
2569
2571
Avg - 2570
ES - 9
SD - 0

<span style="font-weight: bold">46</span>
2633
2639
2612
2612
2625
Avg - 2624
ES - 27
SD - 11.1

<span style="font-weight: bold">46.5</span>
2632
2626
2629
2609
2605
Avg - 2620
ES - 27
SD - 10.8

I had 47gr rounds worked up, but I saw a very harsh ejector wipe on the first one fired, so I stopped there and will be pulling them down. I cleaned my chamber/barrel prior to this load development, so I think the chamber was just abnormally clean, which kept me from seeing pressure on 47gr yesterday. However, today after working up and firing 30rnds prior to getting to 47, it was a more realistic scenario than a spotless chamber. I started seeing ejector marks at 45.5, and they were just a touch more pronounced at 46, but not severe. 46.5 showed ejector marks that were pronounced, but I still had to search a bit for them. At 47 however, on the one I did fire... it was severe. Completely shined up and the lettering was flattened out. NOTHING like what I experienced yesterday with a spit-shined chamber.

The 45.5gr, and 44gr loads show great potential. I plan to load a couple batches at those nodes and try a few groups of each. I would really like to get a bit more velocity, but I suppose 1 mil or less of elevation isn't really going to be noticed. 46gr showed very solid accuracy. Should I even consider loading at that charge?

I also did a few groups with some 150gr noslers for coyote hunting. 47gr @ 2700+fps is showing great promise!

Thoughts?

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

On the 175 loads keep 46 as absolute max with the current weather and temp conditions. When outside temp hits in the high 80's-90+* drop the charge weight to 45ish and slowly work up and chrony the loads again. That will give you your year round safe maximum. I'd seriously work around the 45.5gr load though down or up in .1 gr increments if you've got good accuracy. SD = 0 that's a bit of margin, although the speeds look pretty consistent. I wonder what you're software's calculation uses for a threshold for not statistically significant to have a 0 without an error.

On the 150's or 155's 47 grains generally shouldn't be an issue. I run 155 Scenars in win brass with 47.4 grains of Varget 2932 avg. Actually in my rifle, this exact load works for 155 AMAX and 155 Nosler CC's as well. Hodgdon's max is 47gr's, IIRC Noslers lists MAX at 48gr Varget.

Work up your loads from lower or midrange charge weights. Personally I'd wait on extensive load development until temps start really getting up in the high 80's and 90's to test near or at MAX loads.

Try 45.6gr Varget with the 150's and 155's is a low-mid velocity node in my rifle.

 

[mark4567]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

44gr varget, 168 A-Max, Win case, CCI BR-2 primer.
Out of a 20" stock Howa gives me .37" @ 100yds. Not shot it at any longer yet this was just playing around in the back yard. It was 27f and no wind but with 2ft of snow on the ground I wasn't walking to 300yds to set up and check targets.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

I would be looking att he 44gr loads as you have a short barrel the pressure is only against the case for a shorter time but the peak pressure will still be very high it is interesting that at 44.5gr it was lower than at 44gr then at 45 gr it was the same again. That is a big tel tale sign that the pressures are starting to spike in your barrel. if the velocity drops with another half a grain stop there as the larger volume of powder is going slower and detonation comes close behind it dont go up to 46 at all you are in dangerous teritory after 45gr in your barrel the chrono is telling you something. So from YOUR results 44gr would be the place to start.

 

[orkan]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> interesting that at 44.5gr it was lower than at 44gr then at 45 gr it was the same again. </div></div>

Actually that is not correct. I put the wrong number in there for the average, I got those fields crossed up somehow. I did the math on the averages myself, and that one was off. The actual figures are as follows:

44 Avg - 2514
44.5 Avg - 2526
45 Avg - 2563
45.5 Avg - 2570
46 Avg - 2624
46.5 Avg - 2620

It isn't until 46.5 that velocity starts to decrease. The 45.5 load showed single digit ES and was very accurate. No doubt that I'll want to wait for some hot days before settling on a load. Performing the diligence on each rifle sure does teach you a lot about the differences from one gun to the next... that is for certain.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 175SMK + 47gr Varget?

That makes more sense but twhen you increase from 45gr to 45.5 there is only 7fps there so stay at 45gr max as you are starting to get high pressures above it.