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17HMR Ammo Sorting by Concentricity

clmayfield

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 14, 2008
2,050
12
50
San Antonio, Texas
Because I guess I have too much time on my hands or because I am a freak, I decided to sort my 17HMR ammo by concentricity to see if it would make a difference. 22LR ammo won't fit in my Sinclair's concentricity guage, but on 17HMR, with the two blocks as close together as possible and with some diligence, I can take some runout readings.

My distribution looked like this:
Runout % of Population
0-1....... 2%
1-2....... 10%
2-3....... 19%
3-4....... 19%
4-5....... 18%
5&+....... 33%

These runout numbers are in thousandths of an inch. I could mention brand, but it is all made by CCI, so it doesn't matter. The bullet is V-Max.

Here are the targets

5 and up runout:
080710517HMRpost.jpg


1-2 runout:
0807101-217HMRpost.jpg


My >5 target doesn't look so bad because the POI is very centered. On the other hand, my 1-2 target doesn't look so good because the POI started to wander down. I was shooting in 100 degree temps and what I have found is that after a number of shots in that kind of heat, POI does wander. I shot the >5 target first and the barrel was pretty hot by the time I shot my second target. Nonetheless, group sizes were smaller with the 1-2 ammo, but as you can see, the last two groups (at the bottom of the 1-2 target) were also the largest. I will have to do this test again, shooting the 1-2 first, then the >5.

Quantitatively, the average MOA for the >5 was 1.179 and the average MOA for the 1-2 was .969, so this number improved by 22% with sorting. I also measured average distance to center of the group. This number improved far more: from .443 MOA to .328 MOA, a 35% improvement.

From a statistical perspective, the improvement was less than 1 standard deviation, so the improvement was not statistically significant. Still, I think it is worth further investigation.

With better conditions, we might get a better comparison. I mentioned the high temps, but mirage was bad and windspeeds varied from 5 - 15 mph coming from 7 to 9 o'clock. Further, I just know from experience that groups are usually tighter from this gun.
 
Re: 17HMR Ammo Sorting by Concentricity

knowing how well you shoot though, i believe there is some substance to your findings.

unfortunately, as with many of the ammos i've tested, the best grouping measured lot seems to have the least amount of rounds in it, as in your population numbers depicts.

but that's some good stuff you've found, another way of sorting to produce better performance.

cool!
 
Re: 17HMR Ammo Sorting by Concentricity

Wow, I really like your study. I think this really merits further investigation on a better day. I will have to search around for a concentricity guage made for 22s.

Please add to this if you have an opportunity to do more shooting on a calm cool day.

Also, are you saying all .17 ammo is manufactured by CCI?
 
Re: 17HMR Ammo Sorting by Concentricity

Searcher, yes, all 17HMR ammo is manufactured by CCI. The only differences for the V-Max's are the colors of the ballistic tips and the stamps. The hollowpoints and JHP's are likewise all the same.

This has been proven a number of times on this Board and others.

There is a concentricity guage for 22LR made by Nielson Brothers. http://www.nielsonbrothersarms.com/

It is kind of pricey, so I have resisted.

TP, thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately, the zero runout rounds are few and far between , but the really crappy thing is that 33% of rounds exhibited runout greater than 5 thou. That is a lot for such a short cartridge. If I cull those out, the ammo goes from $9.99 a box to $13 or $14 a box. No way do I go through 33% of my ammo in foulers and sighters.
 
Re: 17HMR Ammo Sorting by Concentricity

i hear ya, i usually put my sorted stuff into a few catagories:

sighters / foulers / plinkers / short range rounds - the worst of the bunch
silhouette rounds - ok shooting, but not something shooting pinpoint
paper / hunting rounds - the best of the rest, for score and critter getting.

i just seems my paper / hunting rounds have the least amount of "population" no matter what manufacturer, grain, etc.

but adding concentricity to sorting RF ammo seems to have merit, the results of your next test should be interesting.
 
Re: 17HMR Ammo Sorting by Concentricity

Do you think that maybe, along with heat being a factor, the shifting wind spoiled your findings?

From the little bit of shooting I've done with my .17HMR, it seems that it doesn't take much of a wind to blow those little bullets around.
 
Re: 17HMR Ammo Sorting by Concentricity

It was definitely an issue. If you look at group height, the 1-2 thou averaged .7 MOA vs .768 for the >5, which is another good way to look at it.

Low runout was definitely better, but was it worth the 3 hours or so it took me to sort a brick of ammo? I need more testing. I am interested because I might try using the 17 for Smack the Smiley. I will have to test at 50 yards to know whether I can squeeze the same accuracy out of my 17 at 50 vs. my 22LR. I have a hunch my 22 is tighter at close range, but this is a "practical" consideration.
 
Re: 17HMR Ammo Sorting by Concentricity

I would love to see the powder variations that occur within one box of ammo as I have my suspicions that the results might be suprising.

Good write up Carter, seems like its a worthwhile subject to look into further.
 
Re: 17HMR Ammo Sorting by Concentricity

I have some bad news for people wishing to sort by concentricity (or maybe some good news). I shot another 2 5X5's today, this time with 2-3 thou runout vs. >5 thou.

The >5 thou runout averaged .997 MOA. The 2-3 thou averaged 1.22 MOA. So the high runout was 22.5% better than the low runout. Greg Langelius decries those who worship at the twin altars of runout and concentricity. I am one of those, and from what I have found, concentric 17HMR ammo shoots no better than non-concentric 17HMR.

The more disturbing thing about this study is that conditions were more ideal today than with my first test and yet group sizes were slightly larger. A this point, it looks like my 22LR is, in fact, more accurate than my 17 at 100 yards.

Concerned with my shooting ability, I took my 22LR to the 50 yard line and shot pretty good groups (around .25" or half MOA for the most part). The bright side is that I don't have to waste time sorting ammo. The downside is that I might well have reached the accuracy potential of this weapon. Worse, this Anschutz 17 HMR, while looking promising at the outset, appears to shoot no better than my Marlin 917VS.

Next session, I will try leaving it dirty as the second target was better than the first in both of these test sessions. Man, the 17 is so dirty, though. I have to run about 15 patches with solvent and the last one still doesn't come out clean. That is some dirty powder that CCI uses.
 
Re: 17HMR Ammo Sorting by Concentricity

The problem with Marlin and Savage is that there is variation from rifle to rifle. I must have gotten a shooter with my Marlin.

It would be nice to shoot them truly side-by-side. But going off of old records, I am seeing similar group sizes between the Anschutz and the Marlin. That said, the fit and finish, etc. is far superior on the Anschutz. But at the end of the day, what we all really want is accuracy.