185 Bergers?

[gregsjt]

So last night I read through the entire .308 Win load thread and if I remember right there was only one load for the 185 Berger. So, why no love? It seems that with a G1 BC of .550 give or take, it should be pretty good, especially compared to the 175's with BC around .5. I think the 185 hybrid looks really interesting with a higher BC and with supposedly less OAL issues.

If you do use this bullet what loads are you using and what velocity are you getting?
Thanks

 

[Leaddog]

Re: 185 Bergers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gregsjt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So last night I read through the entire .308 Win load thread and if I remember right there was only one load for the 185 Berger. So, why no love? It seems that with a G1 BC of .550 give or take, it should be pretty good, especially compared to the 175's with BC around .5. I think the 185 hybrid looks really interesting with a higher BC and with supposedly less OAL issues.

If you do use this bullet what loads are you using and what velocity are you getting?
Thanks
</div></div>

The Berger 185 BTLR is a great bullet. I load 41.6 grs. of Varget and it gives me 2577fps at 51 degrees. My bore is tight. Your mileage will vary so work up slow and safe.

I said goodbye to the 175's a long time ago.

 

[vman]

Re: 185 Bergers?

Ive got some 185 Bergers at home, but due to their cost I have not used them up... Bergers are very expensive bullets in Australia

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: 185 Bergers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bergers are very expensive bullets in Australia </div></div>
Berger's are expensive everywhere

 

[vman]

Re: 185 Bergers?

Do they cost $85Aud ($84 USD) for a box of 100 at your local store? Didnt think so

I may as well shoot a .338 Lapua magnum, its cheaper than handloading Bergers

 

[Policeman]

Re: 185 Bergers?

LUCKILY no they don't cost $84/100 here in the states. I use to use 40 grns of varget for 600 yrds for a while. Tried Re17 too with 185s. I got tired of paying $45-$47 for bullets with f---ed up meplats or other QC issues and went to a custom rebated boat tail bullet in 185.

Po-Po

 

[John L]

Re: 185 Bergers?

Greg,
When I spoke with Bryan Litz about .308 Palma loads this was his recomended bullet. It is what he uses for his long range shooting. I have not had time to work up a load for it yet, so I cannot help there.

John

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: 185 Bergers?

Vman, berger's run at that same price here in the UK too,
So I fully sympathise!

Lapua brass/bullets, and Viht powder is cheaper here than USA tho,
So that's a bit of an offset ;D

If only Lapua made petrol..

 

[gregsjt]

Re: 185 Bergers?

Is that the main reason for their apparent unpopularity, cost? Or is it hard to make them go fast enough to make a difference vs. the 175 SMK?

For you guys that use them, what velocity are you getting?

 

[clmayfield]

Re: 185 Bergers?

I just bought 600 of these. I was wondering about what kind of velocities to expect. That is the downside of using a bullet that hasn't gotten a lot of play. I barely even know where to start with load development.

Leaddog, are you getting any pressure signs at 2577 fps? I figured I could squeeze 2,600 fps out of the 185 gr no problem, but I also like to keep my loads pretty moderate.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: 185 Bergers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just bought 600 of these. I was wondering about what kind of velocities to expect. That is the downside of using a bullet that hasn't gotten a lot of play. I barely even know where to start with load development.

Leaddog, are you getting any pressure signs at 2577 fps? I figured I could squeeze 2,600 fps out of the 185 gr no problem, but I also like to keep my loads pretty moderate.</div></div>

I have no pressure signs at all with that load. I was never a fan of pushing lead as fast as I could. As long as you stay above 1250 fps or so at 1000 you are good to go. My load will do it except in the very coldest of the winter, but it will still stay supersonic.

I load .005 off the lands because that's what my rifle likes. I spoke with Walt Berger and he said loading them to just touching the lands is best. I haven't experimented because my load works great just the way it is. Berger also suggests 41.6 grs. as max with Varget which is where I am with this load combo.

Just so we are on the same page.... I am talking about the 185 BTLR, not the VLD's.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: 185 Bergers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gregsjt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is that the main reason for their apparent unpopularity, cost? Or is it hard to make them go fast enough to make a difference vs. the 175 SMK?

For you guys that use them, what velocity are you getting?
</div></div>

I like the 185 Berger LRBT (non-VLD). As to whether you can get them fast enough vs the popular (and inexpensive) 175 SMK, here' a JBM chart I ran, using G7 BC's for both.

308 Win. 175 SMK @ 2700 FPS

1000 Yds Drop -10.8 Mils -37.1 MOA Drift 2.9 MILS 9.9 MOA

308 Win Berger 185 LRBT @ 2600 FPS

1000 Yds Drop -10.4 Mils -35.9 MOA Drift 2.4 Mils 8.3 MOA

The 185 Berger shows 18" less drift @ 1000 yds, going 100 FPS slower than the 175 SMK.

As to load data, I used Hodgdon's data for a 190 Grain SMK as a starting point and worked up. IMR 4064 gave me just over 2600 FPS.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: 185 Bergers?

Bob - Thanks for the math. Nothing like facts to show the superority of the 185. It should be pointed out that even though the 185 MV is 100fps slower than the 175, the 185 will retain approx. 100 fps more velocity at 1000 yards. This is quite significant, especially in colder temps.

 

[vman]

Re: 185 Bergers?

The heavier projectiles will always have a good advantage from their added weight.

Problem with .30 cal is, what do you consider heavy?

Now, 240gr SMK! Thats a nice pill

 

[9sigman45]

Re: 185 Bergers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leaddog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob - Thanks for the math. Nothing like facts to show the superority of the 185. It should be pointed out that even though the 185 MV is 100fps slower than the 175, the 185 will retain approx. 100 fps more velocity at 1000 yards. This is quite significant, especially in colder temps. </div></div>

And it gets even better when that 185gr BT starts out well in excess of 2,700fps.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: 185 Bergers?

That's fast. Are you able to achieve higher MV's with 185 Bergers than 175 SMK's. If so, how? Is there less bearing surface? Now I am really curious.

Also, how much powder is everyone using? Assuming everyone is running Varget... probably a bad assumption.

 

[gregsjt]

Re: 185 Bergers?

So I did three ladder tests with 4064, Varget, and Reloader 15 last night. I forgot my chrono but I ran into pressure at the following:
4064 43.5 grains, crater and ejector marks (Max For Sure)
Varget 44 grains, same as above
RL 15 45 grains, not that bad just a littel crater

It was about 40 degrees and I was using the VLD's seated to 2.830, 24 inch 5R barrel with a suppressor.

I'm going to do it again next week with a smaller window of charge weights, but I'll remember my chrono.

 

[9sigman45]

Re: 185 Bergers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's fast. Are you able to achieve higher MV's with 185 Bergers than 175 SMK's. If so, how? Is there less bearing surface? Now I am really curious.

Also, how much powder is everyone using? Assuming everyone is running Varget... probably a bad assumption. </div></div>


My match load (F-tr) sends a 175gr SMK with an avg vel of 2,805fps. This is being done with no pressure signs at all! No sticky bolt and no ejector swipe. On the rounds I loaded today for next week's match, the brass is on it's 8th firing. My buddy has been using 185gr Berger BTs at an avg vel 2,760fps. However, he only gets between 3 to 4 firings before the primer pockets are shot.

Please note that these rifles are single shot actions (i.e. the rounds are loaded long) with 30" match barrels and tight chambers. At any distance from 800 yards and in, I seem to have an advantage with the Sierra, but at 1,000 yards the advantage definetly shifts over to the Bergers. Hence, that's why I bought 3,000 Berger 185gr BTs this winter for my new rifle that's scheduled to be complete by the end of the month.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: 185 Bergers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hence, that's why I bought 3,000 Berger 185gr BTs this winter for my new rifle that's scheduled to be complete by the end of the month.

</div></div>

Nice you have Camp Butner not too far away to shoot those Bergers! Nice range, I like shooting there when I can get away.

 

[USFTR]

Re: 185 Bergers?

Just to compliment what Sigman said, in my barrels (I have a few to choose from), I get anywhere from 2776 to 2805 with the 185BT using Varget and a loooooong barrel. My shortest barrel is 31". To compare, the best I can get a 210BT going is 2660 fps and that gives me very little advantage over the 185BT at 1000 yds. Yes, we are talking a standard .308Win.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Re: 185 Bergers?

Well, if you really wanna run the Berger 185 BT LR to it's full potential in a .308 loaded to mag length then you're gonna need to get yourself some of Alliant's new 2000-MR powder. I've been getting average velocities around 2770 with no pressure signs from a 25" barrel. No tight chamber or neck. This combo kicks ass at long range. There's a pretty good amount of data on this combo in this thread:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2363447&nt=2&page=1

-SBS

 

[5RWill]

Re: 185 Bergers?

Well if your going to put a 175gr bullet up against berger's 185gr it needs to be the equivalent, which is the 175gr BT LR. All same conditions. This is with a 10mph wind drift. The 185gr BT LR still retains 27fps more than the 175gr @ 1000yds. But no huge difference.
185gr BT LR (litz) @ 2615fps at 1000yds

Elev(Mil): 10.3
Wind(Mil):2.4

175gr BT LR (litz) @ 2715 at 1000yds

Elev(Mil):10.0
Wind(Mil):2.5

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: 185 Bergers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gregsjt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So last night I read through the entire .308 Win load thread and if I remember right there was only one load for the 185 Berger. So, why no love? It seems that with a G1 BC of .550 give or take, it should be pretty good, especially compared to the 175's with BC around .5. I think the 185 hybrid looks really interesting with a higher BC and with supposedly less OAL issues.

If you do use this bullet what loads are you using and what velocity are you getting?
Thanks
</div></div>

Two other bullets to consider are the Lapua 185 Scenar (.521 IIRC) and their 185gr FMJ rebated boat tail D46 (.547).

They're a bit spendy, but still cheaper than the Bergers.

Chris

 

[5RWill]

Re: 185 Bergers?

Hell the new Hornady 178gr BTHP has a aclaimed BC of .530...only cost 30$ hell of a price.