Gunsmithing 1911 build questions

[BigAndy]

I have an American Classic Commander that I would like to rebuild. Pistol has maybe 250-300 round count. I bought all Wilson Combat and Les Baer internals. My questions are: 1) which book would be most beneficial for a first-time builder; 2) any tools that are necessities for installing the internals; and 3) any general advice? After this project I have an older BHP (9mm) that also needs updating.
Thanks in advance,
-JA

 

[MarshallDodge]

If you need to file, take material off the lowest cost part.

Make sure you fully understand how to fit a part, especially the safeties, before proceeding.

Read the gunsmithing forums on 1911forum and 1911pro for good information on what to do and what not to do. Lots of good reading on people that have made mistakes.

The Kuhnhausen books are very technical but give a good idea on how to work on 1911s.

For tools I would recommend a good set of small files and stones for removing material. Stay away from the Dremel as much as possible.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I used the Kuhnhausen books to help me understand operation and parts checking/fitting.

Can you help us understand what you would like to accomplish with some changes? It already comes with a Beavertail Grip Safety so that's good. If you want to change out the fire control parts, I would recommend a Cylinder and Slide drop in kit. If you want to improve accuracy, I would recommend a Kart Exact-Fit barrel. Using their installation tools, you can easily install a match grade barrel.

 

[bptactical]

If you have to ask such questions, your in over your head already. Not trying to be a jerk but if you are not familiar with the mechanicals, timing and relationships of the platform you can achieve two things in a hurry:
1- create an unsafe firearm.
2- ruin a good firearm.

If you are replacing fire control components do you have an understanding of sear angles, hammer hook height etc and have the correct tooling to adjust them as needed?
The Kuehnhausen books are a great reference but don't let your brain write a check your ass can't cash.

 

[W8-2112]

I agree with bptactical, the 1911 is not a AR and you can't approach this project like a lego set if you do you are only setting yourself up for failure. If you are set on doing the work yourself take a gunsmithing course first and then take another.

 

[BigAndy]

No prior experience in pistolsmithing. I just liked the look of the chrome Commander-style, especially at its price. Trigger sucks, so I figured I would replace it. Got a little click - happy on Midway and sprang for sear, trigger, sights, etc. Primarily going to be a carry gun, so functionality is paramount. Would like a nice trigger, but after reading some posts and manufacturer's content I think a barrel replacement is a little outside my means and abilities right now. Anyway, just looking for a decent read with good information and a ton of pictures before I jump on.
Thanks again,
-BigAndy

 

[bptactical]

No prior experience in pistolsmithing. I just liked the look of the chrome Commander-style, especially at its price. Trigger sucks, so I figured I would replace it. Got a little click - happy on Midway and sprang for sear, trigger, sights, etc. Primarily going to be a carry gun, so functionality is paramount. Would like a nice trigger, but after reading some posts and manufacturer's content I think a barrel replacement is a little outside my means and abilities right now. Anyway, just looking for a decent read with good information and a ton of pictures before I jump on.
Thanks again,
-BigAndy

And this illustrates very well the lack of knowledge of the platform.
The trigger sucks so replace the trigger = trigger still sucks.
The actual trigger has very little to do with the trigger pull and feel.
This is where the understanding of the system comes into play. The trigger bears on the disconnector which bears on the sear which bears on the hammer. Then you have the sear spring to add into the equation.
The relationship and engagement of all of those components is critical and a change to one item affects everything down stream. Tuning and adjustments need to be done to achieve the desired result.

Recipe for failure
What I find really quite disturbing is the fact you plan on carrying said pistol.
When you make the decision to carry a firearm on your person you are undertaking a TREMENDOUS responsibility and obligation to yourself and the society you encounter.
Pretty poor place to discover your kitchen table GumSmiffin is inadequate.
There are enhancements and modifications that can be performed on the platform for reliability but it takes a competent and knowledgeable Smith.

Besides, do you want to be in the situation, God forbid where you have to use the firearm defensively?
You can bet a prosecutor will have a field day with you.
I very strongly advocate keeping a carry gun as stock as possible, just fluff and buff what is there.
A prosecutor will use anything and everything they can to try and nail your hide to the wall.
Amateur Gunsmithing would bode poorly and be tough to defend.

 

[BigAndy]

Damn boys, I was just asking for a book recommendation. I did purchase a new sear, hammer, trigger, and spring set. Just looking to improve function on a budget build. I appreciate the heads-up about the legal aspect, but if it becomes necessary to defend myself or my family I think a prosecutor will be the last thing on my mind. Also, I would never just carry a project gun without thorough range time behind it, nor would I carry something that was unsafe.
-BigAndy

 

[bptactical]

After reading that, I guess you should just toss your gun in the trash so you never have a problem BigAndy. Seems that you've already comitted a crime and are being prosecuted in court over it, having a tough time defending yourself. That certainly doesn't sound good.

I have two customers who have been involved in defensive shoots (both good shoots), another one who is a forensic engineer that has been involved in numerous court cases and another who is a retired Fed shooting investigator.
There is good reason my carry piece is bone stock aside from the action smoothed.

Not trying to bust on you Andy, just trying to throw some light on a few things.
And unfortunately in this litigious society if one chooses to have a firearm for defensive purposes one is wise to keep a prosecutor in mind.

 

[avidflyer]

Damn boys, I was just asking for a book recommendation. I did purchase a new sear, hammer, trigger, and spring set. Just looking to improve function on a budget build. I appreciate the heads-up about the legal aspect, but if it becomes necessary to defend myself or my family I think a prosecutor will be the last thing on my mind. Also, I would never just carry a project gun without thorough range time behind it, nor would I carry something that was unsafe.
-BigAndy

Fuck it Andy, It's only money and it's your money.... tear it apart and learn something. Sure you need to function check any work you do and give it plenty of range time to make sure it's safe and reliable. Have fun and go at it. Not going to get into a long winded post but this over your head shit is way out there....if you use some common sense....

 

[MarinePMI]

I'd say there are two valid sides to this argument, both of which have been stated. I think bptactical is just trying to express some caution and some conscious, deliberate reasoning before jumping in whole hog.

Can you learn to do a trigger job on a 1911 by yourself? Probably, but there is likely to be some trial and error; and some of that error may not be present until after some time at the range. I say this after having completed my first trigger job on a 1911 (without knowing how to tweak the main spring correctly I might add). Everything was fine. Four months later, same pistol went full auto; fortunately it was at a range, and I was following good safety discipline. A thing like that will make you sit back and take serious note of what you're doing. It also makes you go back and ensure you damned well know all the relationships between all the parts involved. (Turns out, those hammer hooks can be a bitch. )

Trigger design and trigger geometry need to be well understood before undertaking a job on something as complicated as the 1911. It's not a legacy Model 70 (Winchester) trigger, that is fairly simple and straightforward.

There are many videos and descriptions available these days (which there weren't when I first attempted it), so it is reasonable to do it yourself. And (personally) I applaud your desire to be self reliant.

That being said, bptactical brings up some valid points about the dangers (physical and legal) of kitchen gunsmithing. And no, I don't think there's anything wrong with kitchen gunsmithing (hell, how do you think Brownell's got started?), just that when you're doing the job without having a shingle hung out, it opens you up to a lot of liability.

JMTCW...

Edit: Oh, and you'll need some good, quality stones. Files will only get you so far...

 

[xringaccuracy]

The Kuhnhausen book is great but it is a bit involved for first time reading. Whatever you decide on, go slow. A little bit goes a long way on fitting ignition components on a 1911. If they are drop in and function better than what you have, great.

 

[MarinePMI]

Jukyu-juichi,

I think we're in violent agreement.

As to what happened on my pistol; I got a little aggressive with the stones on the hammer hooks. One hook was much longer than the other, so in trying to even them out on a Powers Series 1 jig, I inadvertently cut them down to just right at tolerance and the through the case hardening (near as I could tell), causing it to wear excessively over time. In addition, I think the main spring was out of whack and/or the disconnector was not functioning correctly (perhaps just too short; it was fairly worn across the top). Essentially, once the trigger was pulled, whatever was in the mag was cycled through.

Lessons learned...

 

[bax]

I bought the Kuhnhausen books, a Caspian frame and commander slide, Kart barrel, and all the other parts and tools from Brownells and various other places. I already had several appropriate micrometers. My first gun took several months. I think I got too aggressive with the barrel ramp so it has a little trouble feeding SWC ammo but the gun shoots hardball every damn time and the brass looks good and lands in a bucket-sized pile behind my right shoulder. I have a good trigger and sights and the safety is 100%. You will need stones and files -- get good ones, they last a long time. Expect to ruin some parts, the thumb safety can be tricky. If you have a dremel, put it away. In pistol smithing, a dremel is not your friend. Going fast will wreck things. Before fitting a barrel, understand all of the different pieces and clearances, Kuhnhausen rocks for that. I think I spent about a week of evenings on the receiver rails and another week of evenings on the barrel. The next two guns went a little faster. I have two that I have still need some parts but are mostly done. I have been working on them on and off for about a year. It helps to have a gun that works that you can take apart and examine and measure. Do not be afraid to apply your file. The back of the slide and fitting the grip safety so that the receiver doesn't cut your hand can requires both enthusiasm and control. "Melting" the edges is another place for control. My guns aren't as pretty or good as my Wilson pistol but they are just as accurate and I can replace and refit any part in them.

 

[Twisted300Win MAG]

People are not born gunsmiths/pistolsmiths. And judging by the tight lipped secretive shit I've encountered trying to learn how to true actions and fit/chamber my own rifles. I'd say the only way to learn (unless you have tine for school or an aprenticeship) is to try it out yourself. Just go slow, use proper tools and techniques and understand the inplcations of what your doing. There are sources to find the required info you just have to look.The hide is the only place that I found that people were willing to share info. Have fun learn sonething.
Donald

 

[deadly0311]

My two cents... I had a rock island about 4 years ago that had a horrible trigger. I bought EGW ignition parts to fit myself. What I did was to take the rock island parts and those were my sacrificial parts to start with after thorough reading and studying the parts relationships. If you look through my posts here it may still be here but I wrote a thread detailing my process. To this day I have done well over 100 1911 trigger jobs and not a single one has been unsafe. Granted I do my hook height on the mill but slowing down it can be done just fine with stones.

 

[BigAndy]

I appreciate all of the insight from you guys. I believe the great thing about this forum is access to thousands of people, ranging from poor hobbyists like myself to long-time snipers and renowned smiths. It was my fault for not clearly explaining my background, goals, and equipment. I think that playing hobbyist with the stock parts, but getting a smith to do the actual job is the path I will take. I will probably pick up the book as well.
Thanks again,
-BigAndy

 

[bptactical]

I appreciate all of the insight from you guys. I believe the great thing about this forum is access to thousands of people, ranging from poor hobbyists like myself to long-time snipers and renowned smiths. It was my fault for not clearly explaining my background, goals, and equipment. I think that playing hobbyist with the stock parts, but getting a smith to do the actual job is the path I will take. I will probably pick up the book as well.
Thanks again,
-BigAndy

Now your thinkin!
Just the jigs for the hammer/sear will probably run more than what a decent Smith will charge to set up your fire control group.
Learn some Smithing, just start with something simple like a 10-22 build. Learn how the components work together to form a system.
Progress in complexity as your skill set grows.

 

[Twisted300Win MAG]

This thread pisses me off. Basically a guy posts a question and shows some interest in working on his pistol. Then in come the gun natzis and basically take the wind out of his sails. We're sorry sir but your an idiot and shouldn't atempt "smiffing" it's for the smart peolle who can understand how things operate. Fuck that! There are many kitchen smiths out there that can do as nice or nicer work then"the pros". I'm not saying that the project is simple and that it's for everyone but if it's what bigandy wants to do the more power to him. I was born legally blind and color blind, it's bad enough that I cannot get a drivers license. I have been told MANY tines that I can't or shouldn't do sonething. I refuse to think that I can't do anything until I try it. I was told i couldn't work on cars because my vision was too bad. I am a collision repair tech professionally everything from frame and mechanical to paint repair. I have won awards for some of the paint jobs I've turned out. I was told I couldn't bow hunt. I've killed 13 deer with a bow. I was told I couldn't shoot guns. I've killed an antelope at 565 yards and repeatedly hit steel out to 1208 yards. You should atleast try before you give up. Don't let the naysayers stop you. Firearms are dangerous, proper care should be used when operating and servicing them. But it's not rocket science or voodoo. I thought this forum was for like minded shooters and enthusiasts to bs and help each other out. Maybe I'm wrong
Ok I'm done ranting
Donald

 

[bptactical]

^^^
Whew!
I feel better now.
With 12 posts here and you are in process of working on your first 1911 I am sure BigAndy is in good hands.
The statement of "Since he has the existing parts, it doesn't seem that dangerous to me, athough I can see how others may view it that way." can be a fatal assumption.
In Gunsmithing one cannot "assume" anything.
We deal in absolutes.
When we modify/repair a firearm we must be absolutely sure that the work is executed to absolute perfection.
We work with tolerances of thousandths of an inch(if not less) and pressures in excess of 50,000 P.S.I. inches from our faces.
Those are absolutes.
A mistake can cost a life.
Absolute.
The example of the 1911 going FA is prime. An error, an oversight can have catastrophic consequences to one's life and livelihood (BTW- disconnector length should be checked)

In no way, shape or form was BigAndy's "aptitude" ever in question. The only thing in question was his choice of a fairly complex and at times finicky platform to cut his pistolsmithing teeth on. Add the fact that the intended use of the item in question is self defense and there is no room for error.

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure

 

[George Az]

Funny, if you bought more than one 1911, 20 years ago, even from COLT, even a Gold Cup, about 30-40% needed some type of smith work. Many a kitchen smith ruined them. But there are now many videos which explain in detail from a fluff and buff to slide tightening. I don't care one way or another, and in 1988 I screwed up my share of parts, and there were a bunch of shit parts out there too. There are even dedicated classes which you may find worthwhile. Look into it for yourself.

Half the crap you can do to a 1911, doesn't need it. It has to feed and go bang. It has to be safe. It doesn't need oversize magazine buttons and extended slide locks. We are so fortunate to have as many quality parts available, and again that doesn't mean they will all work together. Wilson, Ed Brown, EGW, McCormick there are a bunch of companies - heck Brownells has a dedicated 1911 catalog. I say, get a couple videos, read some books and carefully decide what you think you can do, vs what you will understand what a professional gunsmith can do for you. I can pin a front sight - I want to go with a milled sight now. I am told pinning is difficult, I didn't find it so. Screwing around with the internals got me a major safety malfunction once and I am lucky I followed the safety rules - such as always point it in a safe direction or something bad could have happened. Think about it.

 

[NXS338]

Bigandy should have no problems with making a few improvements to his 1911 as long as he goes slow and takes his time. I have not read the book referenced here but brownells has an excellent DVD set that shows you start to finish how to build a 1911 that I found quite interesting as well as informative. You can get all the tools and jigs you need from them and if you choose not to go that route there are quite a few videos on youtube that give you plenty of info. A 1911 is not as complicated as most would have you believe.

As for the " you dont know what your doing dont touch it! " crowd I ask you this, before getting on your soapbox and proclaiming what a great 1911 smith you are remember everybody has to start somewhere. Installing a few trigger parts and maybe sticking in a drop in barrel is just that and you are not building shit, simply modifying if you could even call it that. Building is starting from parts that are NOT fit and bought completely separate but with technology now even those are usually close. If you are that good then you should have a top shooter shooting your stuff and since there are only a few of these true 1911 smiths out there then you should be quite well known especially in the competitive pistol community. I have seen many 1911's fail that were built by guys who said they know what they were doing, they didnt...lol. The other plus is this, if for some reason the hobby guy messes up a hammer or sear or any of the little parts as long as he hasnt cut his frame in two or really dicked up his slide it can be fixed. If it works and he is successful then awesome he has learned something and has the self gratification of saying he did it himself.