Put about a hundred rounds of some cheap stuff through my 1911 today and found I was on average low and left. Is the likely culprit trigger pull or grip. I put the last 4 dead together so I am pretty sure its me and not the sights for instance. Ideas on what I can isolate to try and correct the issue?
Suppressors 1911 POI low and left
- Thread starter Bamf911
- Start date
Re: 1911 POI low and left
Sounds like you've already figured it out. At the range, a pretty effective method to confirm is to have someone load a snap cap or two in your mags so that you won't know when the pistol won't fire. More likely than not when the firing pin stikes the inert round, you'll have noticed the pronounced amount of flinch (anticipation, trigger jerk, whatever.....)you've developed. Double plugging your hearing protection and quite a bit of dry fire practice usually helps. Good luck!
Sounds like you've already figured it out. At the range, a pretty effective method to confirm is to have someone load a snap cap or two in your mags so that you won't know when the pistol won't fire. More likely than not when the firing pin stikes the inert round, you'll have noticed the pronounced amount of flinch (anticipation, trigger jerk, whatever.....)you've developed. Double plugging your hearing protection and quite a bit of dry fire practice usually helps. Good luck!
Re: 1911 POI low and left
ha thats how i shoot as well, I am pretty sure it is the shooter as my glock 21sf shoots quite nice in the hands of my friends. But for me I shoot low and left like you must be doing something ate up.
ha thats how i shoot as well, I am pretty sure it is the shooter as my glock 21sf shoots quite nice in the hands of my friends. But for me I shoot low and left like you must be doing something ate up.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
Maybe this'll help ya?
http://www.homegunsafety.com/correction_chart.gif
Not an end-all be-all, but perhaps help you on what areas to be more aware?? Also for a right-handed shooter.
If you'd like just google "shooting error chart" that's how I got it. But hey, at least practicing is fun!
-G45
Maybe this'll help ya?
http://www.homegunsafety.com/correction_chart.gif
Not an end-all be-all, but perhaps help you on what areas to be more aware?? Also for a right-handed shooter.
If you'd like just google "shooting error chart" that's how I got it. But hey, at least practicing is fun!
-G45
Re: 1911 POI low and left
As others have noted it is anticipation. Ideally you will come to the point wherein you instantly (like at the moment the shot is broken) know if your mechanics were correct, from there you will progress to calling your shot, tracking your FS through the arc of recoil, and finally pre-staging a trigger.
One drill that can help a shooter identify proper mechanics (assuming they can occasionally concentrate and make POA / POI the same)is to square up to the target at a reasonable distance (based on ability), line up the sights and then close your eyes. Really allow yourself to feel everything - how much tension do you have in your hands, elbows, and shoulders? is the tension pretty evenly distributed between the limbs?, are you leaning forward or neutral? can you really feel your trigger as you pass through the pull? what happened at ignition? did you feel the muzzle re-orient? what happened through the arc of recoil? when the gun settled, were the sights lined up - back on the original POA? If not, start thinking about why? Once you start to sense how your body moves and works with your eyes closed you can quickly understand and be able to correct errors with them open.
Pick up a copy of Brian Enos' book: <span style="font-weight: bold">Beyond Fundamentals</span>
Good luck
As others have noted it is anticipation. Ideally you will come to the point wherein you instantly (like at the moment the shot is broken) know if your mechanics were correct, from there you will progress to calling your shot, tracking your FS through the arc of recoil, and finally pre-staging a trigger.
One drill that can help a shooter identify proper mechanics (assuming they can occasionally concentrate and make POA / POI the same)is to square up to the target at a reasonable distance (based on ability), line up the sights and then close your eyes. Really allow yourself to feel everything - how much tension do you have in your hands, elbows, and shoulders? is the tension pretty evenly distributed between the limbs?, are you leaning forward or neutral? can you really feel your trigger as you pass through the pull? what happened at ignition? did you feel the muzzle re-orient? what happened through the arc of recoil? when the gun settled, were the sights lined up - back on the original POA? If not, start thinking about why? Once you start to sense how your body moves and works with your eyes closed you can quickly understand and be able to correct errors with them open.
Pick up a copy of Brian Enos' book: <span style="font-weight: bold">Beyond Fundamentals</span>
Good luck
Re: 1911 POI low and left
I appreciate the information I will concentrate on trigger control. The chart is interesting and handy.
I appreciate the information I will concentrate on trigger control. The chart is interesting and handy.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
You are anticipating the recoil of the weapon and without knowing it you are pushing the weapon low and left. I catch myself doing the same thing every now and then. Easy way to correct it is by dry firing or like someone already said shooting the caps. Also go shoot with a friend and have them watch you from the side or have your friend load the mag with unknown number of rounds but not put a round in the chamber and close the slide. When you shoot and nothing goes bang you will see yourself doing the down and left thing. I do it to my wife all the time and she always says I didn’t mean to do that. Hope this help tame the low and left beast.
You are anticipating the recoil of the weapon and without knowing it you are pushing the weapon low and left. I catch myself doing the same thing every now and then. Easy way to correct it is by dry firing or like someone already said shooting the caps. Also go shoot with a friend and have them watch you from the side or have your friend load the mag with unknown number of rounds but not put a round in the chamber and close the slide. When you shoot and nothing goes bang you will see yourself doing the down and left thing. I do it to my wife all the time and she always says I didn’t mean to do that. Hope this help tame the low and left beast.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
Another vote for anticipation and the ball and dummy drill. Load a mag with a couple dummy rounds in it and when you hit one, see if you flinch the front sight down.
Another vote for anticipation and the ball and dummy drill. Load a mag with a couple dummy rounds in it and when you hit one, see if you flinch the front sight down.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oregonlaw76</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another vote for anticipation and the ball and dummy drill. Load a mag with a couple dummy rounds in it and when you hit one, see if you flinch the front sight down. </div></div>
Ditto!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oregonlaw76</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another vote for anticipation and the ball and dummy drill. Load a mag with a couple dummy rounds in it and when you hit one, see if you flinch the front sight down. </div></div>
Ditto!
Re: 1911 POI low and left
Agreed. This is a common thing with the 1911. It has a lot to do with the design and how it mahes you grip it No computer ergonomics back then. The 1911 is a pistil that takes a lot of traing and practice to master, and some never do.
You could solve this prblem very easy though. Get a 92F. That will solve your problem.
Agreed. This is a common thing with the 1911. It has a lot to do with the design and how it mahes you grip it No computer ergonomics back then. The 1911 is a pistil that takes a lot of traing and practice to master, and some never do.
You could solve this prblem very easy though. Get a 92F. That will solve your problem.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
Fundamentals are fundmentals. If you don't exercise the fundamentals on one firearm platform, then you likely won't exercise fundamentals on another firearm platform. Changing from a 45ACP in a steel frame to a 9mm in a steel frame won't correct the underlying problem -- trigger flinch; or anticipating the shot. All a change of platform will accomplish is to mask the lack of exercise of the fundamentals.
Sight Alignment
Sight Picture
Breathe
Relax
Aim
Sight
Squeeze
Fundamentals are the same, for every weapon platform.
Fundamentals are fundmentals. If you don't exercise the fundamentals on one firearm platform, then you likely won't exercise fundamentals on another firearm platform. Changing from a 45ACP in a steel frame to a 9mm in a steel frame won't correct the underlying problem -- trigger flinch; or anticipating the shot. All a change of platform will accomplish is to mask the lack of exercise of the fundamentals.
Sight Alignment
Sight Picture
Breathe
Relax
Aim
Sight
Squeeze
Fundamentals are the same, for every weapon platform.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
I am quite familiar with the BRASS system, and the fundamentals. By the way, you missed "Trigger Control" there.
Denying that a pistol that was designed before the Wright Brothers flew the first time isn't as efficiently designed as a modern weapon is foolish. The M9/92 points very naturally, and is a easy weapon to get multiple tight hits with for the vast majority of shooters. the 1911 series is not for amateurs when it matters. The M9 anybody can shoot with minimal training.
I'm a guy who hunts with a 1894 Win made in 1894. i am a real nostalgia guy when it comes to these things. But for the military and many LEs, the Colt isn't the right weapon. The Berettas are.
I am quite familiar with the BRASS system, and the fundamentals. By the way, you missed "Trigger Control" there.
Denying that a pistol that was designed before the Wright Brothers flew the first time isn't as efficiently designed as a modern weapon is foolish. The M9/92 points very naturally, and is a easy weapon to get multiple tight hits with for the vast majority of shooters. the 1911 series is not for amateurs when it matters. The M9 anybody can shoot with minimal training.
I'm a guy who hunts with a 1894 Win made in 1894. i am a real nostalgia guy when it comes to these things. But for the military and many LEs, the Colt isn't the right weapon. The Berettas are.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..the 1911 series is not for amateurs when it matters. </div></div>
Sure chief, unless that little springy thing in the M9 breaks and renders the entire gun inoperable. Then the marksman, sharpshooter and expert are all fucked, when it matters.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..the 1911 series is not for amateurs when it matters. </div></div>
Sure chief, unless that little springy thing in the M9 breaks and renders the entire gun inoperable. Then the marksman, sharpshooter and expert are all fucked, when it matters.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tullius</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..the 1911 series is not for amateurs when it matters. </div></div>
Sure chief, unless that little springy thing in the M9 breaks and renders the entire gun inoperable. Then the marksman, sharpshooter and expert are all fucked, when it matters. </div></div>
Let's hope that 1911 of yours doesn't stovepipe after one round, as that seemed to be a very common failing in that model.
If JB had been smarter, he would have invented that 2 piece firing pin and decock safety himself. I'm sure all the guys who shot themselves in the foot would have appreciated it, as well as all the MP's who get reassigned to Alaska for having a AD.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tullius</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..the 1911 series is not for amateurs when it matters. </div></div>
Sure chief, unless that little springy thing in the M9 breaks and renders the entire gun inoperable. Then the marksman, sharpshooter and expert are all fucked, when it matters. </div></div>
Let's hope that 1911 of yours doesn't stovepipe after one round, as that seemed to be a very common failing in that model.
If JB had been smarter, he would have invented that 2 piece firing pin and decock safety himself. I'm sure all the guys who shot themselves in the foot would have appreciated it, as well as all the MP's who get reassigned to Alaska for having a AD.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
I have many thousands of rounds downrange out of stock 1911s and I've never had a stovepipe, not once. If the weapon stovepipes, you're limp-wristing it or otherwise not holding firm enough to allow it to cycle. This mistake is highly unlikely to occur in white-knuckled combat shooting.
And those guys that shot themselves in the foot or otherwise had an AD were faulty of not observing at least 2 of the 4 rules of weapon safety. That fault lies solely with the shooter, not with the weapon.
You don't need to take my word for it though, go read the comments on the susceptibilities of the M9 (esp. those of sinister and eric0311) here.
I have many thousands of rounds downrange out of stock 1911s and I've never had a stovepipe, not once. If the weapon stovepipes, you're limp-wristing it or otherwise not holding firm enough to allow it to cycle. This mistake is highly unlikely to occur in white-knuckled combat shooting.
And those guys that shot themselves in the foot or otherwise had an AD were faulty of not observing at least 2 of the 4 rules of weapon safety. That fault lies solely with the shooter, not with the weapon.
You don't need to take my word for it though, go read the comments on the susceptibilities of the M9 (esp. those of sinister and eric0311) here.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
We had stovepipes or failures every relay at a qual, on every occasion I qualed or coached. FMJ from M1911A1s made in the 40s, but inspected before each time they went to the range or on deployment (which was every year). No tricked out, slick triggered, ported barreled, match sighted, custom gripped pistols for us. just the ones we actually were issued.
And they stovepiped regularly in the hands of men.
We had stovepipes or failures every relay at a qual, on every occasion I qualed or coached. FMJ from M1911A1s made in the 40s, but inspected before each time they went to the range or on deployment (which was every year). No tricked out, slick triggered, ported barreled, match sighted, custom gripped pistols for us. just the ones we actually were issued.
And they stovepiped regularly in the hands of men.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We had stovepipes or failures every relay at a qual, on every occasion I qualed or coached. FMJ from M1911A1s made in the 40s, but inspected before each time they went to the range or on deployment (which was every year). No tricked out, slick triggered, ported barreled, match sighted, custom gripped pistols for us. just the ones we actually were issued.
<span style="font-weight: bold">And they stovepiped regularly in the hands of men.</span> </div></div>
Men who like skinny jeans over cargo pants, use hand lotion because rough hands are so icky, and wear thongs no matter the occasion....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We had stovepipes or failures every relay at a qual, on every occasion I qualed or coached. FMJ from M1911A1s made in the 40s, but inspected before each time they went to the range or on deployment (which was every year). No tricked out, slick triggered, ported barreled, match sighted, custom gripped pistols for us. just the ones we actually were issued.
<span style="font-weight: bold">And they stovepiped regularly in the hands of men.</span> </div></div>
Men who like skinny jeans over cargo pants, use hand lotion because rough hands are so icky, and wear thongs no matter the occasion....
Re: 1911 POI low and left
You're a right hand shooter and you're jerking the trigger out of anticipation. You are having a "fast snap" of the trigger once your sights are on target and this rapid movement is causing you to hit low and left. If possible get a friend to do "ball and dummy" drills with you, as mentioned before in the post. Also, dry fire often. It's free and is very effective in familiarizing yourself with your pistol and its trigger. Practice feeling exactly how much pressure it takes to drop the hammer, and also practice resetting the trigger for follow up shots and a full follow through.
You're a right hand shooter and you're jerking the trigger out of anticipation. You are having a "fast snap" of the trigger once your sights are on target and this rapid movement is causing you to hit low and left. If possible get a friend to do "ball and dummy" drills with you, as mentioned before in the post. Also, dry fire often. It's free and is very effective in familiarizing yourself with your pistol and its trigger. Practice feeling exactly how much pressure it takes to drop the hammer, and also practice resetting the trigger for follow up shots and a full follow through.
Re: 1911 POI low and left
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's you not the gun, that is classic shooter error... </div></div>
I shot 1911's just like that until I went to a smith to have my sights on one replced and mentioned it. He said "I'll take your money to replace you sights, but lets try this-I'll be right back". He took my pistol into the range the worked out of and came back with a 10yd target with the bull shot out.
He suggested I put the money I was going to spend on sights into training, and I'm very happy I did.
It was trigger jerking in anticipation of recoil in my case.
This is one of many charts avaiable:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's you not the gun, that is classic shooter error... </div></div>
I shot 1911's just like that until I went to a smith to have my sights on one replced and mentioned it. He said "I'll take your money to replace you sights, but lets try this-I'll be right back". He took my pistol into the range the worked out of and came back with a 10yd target with the bull shot out.
He suggested I put the money I was going to spend on sights into training, and I'm very happy I did.
It was trigger jerking in anticipation of recoil in my case.
This is one of many charts avaiable:
Re: 1911 POI low and left
What I have always thought about a low/left hit is the shooter squeezing the grip when he pulls the trigger. I have seen a different chart that shows the same thing. If I hold my pistol and, without pulling the trigger, squeeze with my right hand- especially the ring and pinkie fingers- I can watch my barrel move to the low/left position.
Jim
What I have always thought about a low/left hit is the shooter squeezing the grip when he pulls the trigger. I have seen a different chart that shows the same thing. If I hold my pistol and, without pulling the trigger, squeeze with my right hand- especially the ring and pinkie fingers- I can watch my barrel move to the low/left position.
Jim
