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$2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

D

Dynamite

Private
Minuteman
Aug 29, 2009
26
0
35
Okieland
I'm finally getting some money saved up for my first precision rifle setup. I plan to have about $4000 saved up in the end, but I'd like to spend $1800-$2400 on it on either a used or new Nightforce FFP 3-15x or even a used S&B or Premier off the For Sale section here. Setting aside $150-$250 for rings/base, that leaves me with roughtly a limit of $2000 for the rifle. I realize I am only a weekend shooter so while DBM would be nice, it seems to be an unnessary expense unless I liked the AICS stock. I also don't find long barrels such as 26" necessary, and I'd actually prefer the shorter 20" barrels available. I also doubt I'll be suppressing the rifle any time soon so the added expense of the AAC-SD over the Tactical doesn't seem to be worthwhile. I will also be shooting primarily Federal 168gr gold medal match until I save up enough brass from all my guns to make it worthwhile to learn to reload.

I've done a lot of research and it seems the presiding opinion is the Remington 700P (even the LTR version) and 5R are great out of the box for sub MOA, but to go with a SPS Tactical or AAC-SD if I'll be replacing the stock immediately. It seems the most common alternative to the plastic Hogue stock are McMillan stocks that can cost as much as a brand new 700P rifle itself. I see myself shooting off bipod and rear squeeze bag most of the time so I have no idea if these premium stocks would be utilized efficiently by a novice shooter. And does bedding the factory stocks for 700Ps and 5Rs improve their accuracy? Or are they properly seated from the factory? Are these factory stocks still not satisfactory? I see several takeoff stocks for sale every now and then, and it makes me question why they never bought a cheaper SPS model to begin with.

There are many great gunsmiths that are favored by the SH community. Many of them offer bedding and action truing services. Others have suggested going with custom actions if I'll be starting a new build, but the price difference seems to be quite extraordinary. A Surgeon RSR costs in excess of $800, again the cost of a new 700P, and that doesn't factor in costs of a trigger, stock, bottom metal, or the roughly $600 to put in place a match grade barrel to it. It seems the only way I could afford a custom action would be to spend less on the stock itself, which leads back to the last question I had.

Lastly... just how good/bad are factory Remington barrels? From what I can gather, it's a run of the luck affair with the majority ending around .75MOA from what I can glean from searching the Hide. After truing the action it seems many see groups lower than .50MOA and after asking some reputable gunsmiths, they tell me .25 groups are attainable with match grade barrels. Do I have that picture roughly correct? And is it true that .308 barrels have a peak barrel life of roughly 2,000 rounds before accuracy degradation becomes noticeable?

I'll try to make my questions more coherent with a list.

1. How are the factory stocks for the 700P and 5R?
2. Do you recommend bedding these factory stocks to improve the rifle's accuracy?
3. What is the significant difference between McMillan A series stocks compared to say their HTG stocks which are several hundred dollars less?
4. Is it more worthwhile to immediately true the action off a regular Remington and build around it, or should I build around a custom action?
5. Barrel life for stock and match grade barrels?
6. Why are bolt installations/modifications so popular? Are the regular Remington 700 bolts that unwieldy?

Here are some quick build proposals with some price I have found.

Setup #1.
Remington 700 SPS Tactical $550
Getting the action trued. $250
McMillan A5 or similar stock. $800
Having a smith bed the stock. $250
Getting new trigger. Roughly $250
Total. $2100
(Hopefully I can sell the SPS Tactical stock for $50ish, and $50 overboard isn't too bad, especially if I can figure out how to install the trigger myself. Seems like a guaranteed .50MOA rifle that will last me for years until I shoot the barrel out.)

Setup #2.
Remington 700 SPS Tactical $550
Getting action trued. $250
Match barrel/installation $600
HS, Bell Carlson, or even
a McMillan HTG $400
Bedding job. $250
Total. $2050
(Maybe I can sell the Hogue stock again and possibly the factory barrel for some more cash back. Any idea how much a factory takeoff barrel would net me? I may be able to still have some cash left to install an aftermarket trigger on my own. The rifle may shoot .25MOA or better)

Setup #3.
Surgeon RSR $850
Match Barrel/Installation $600
Trigger. $250
Remington bottom metal cost? $50?
HS, Bell Carlson, or even
a McMillan HTG $400
Bedding. $250
Total. $2400
(Obviously over my budget alotted budget unless I find a nicely priced used Nightforce. I may be able to shave $100 off by installing the trigger on my own. Seems like it can also leave me with the option to easily add DBM later on my own. Not sure if this fully custom setup would even make a noticeable improvement over the other 2 setups already listed.)

Setup #4.
Remington 700P $850
Stock Bedding. $250
Action Truing. $250
Trigger job. $250
Bolt knob mod? $100
Total. $1700
(Seems like this rifle offers the best bang for buck. I guess this setup is all dependent on your opinions over the factory stock. I could go with Setup #1 or #2 as an equivalent alternative, but aftermarket stocks are pricier.)

...Edit.
And several of these build ideas never takes into account potential costs such as duracoating. Unless I somehow like having certain parts black and others stainless lol.

Thanks for taking the time to read this lengthy post. All opinions will be appreciated.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

Plenty of HS Precision and B&C nice stocks on this forum for good prices to help your bottom line.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

I realize that this is not on your list, but I've had the same situation (cost vs. reality). Following advice I got here on the Hide, I bought a Savage 10fcp, Mcmillan in .308 ($1,200.). I outfitted it with a Nightforce 20 degree rail and Nightforce rings (about $250)and I mounted it with a Vortex Viper 6.5-20X50 SP scope ($500). My first 100 rounds produced a couple of 1/2"- 5 shot groups at 100 yds. My competition shooting buddies told my it was capable of much better, so now it is at my gunsmith for glass and pillar bedding and an adjustable buttplate ($325). I will have about $2275 invested and this should be a good enough rifle to get met into competition with my friends, saving a couple of grand for a really good scope later on. As a newbie, I can't believe how well I can shoot with this outfit, but then again I have never had the opportunity to shoot a really fine rifle. Just my thoughts on the subject, Good Luck!
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

If it were me I'd take a look the rifle Banks74 has in the for sale section...thats a hell of a good deal.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

+1 Alderleet,


OR... get the scope you want... get a good FN... or a 5R... DONT do ANY work to it in the beginning.. SHOOT the crap out of it and make sure it what you want to do before you dump TONS of money into a weapon that you may not have the time or liking to do.

Matt (LEO SOUTH GA.)
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

You could always save $250 by bedding the stock yourself. There are a few how to threads on here and show pics step by step. As long as you have patience and follow the directions, bedding is a fun thing to do and actually makes you feel more "proud" of your build. Just an idea.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

Another +1 for Alderleet. The FN SPR's are as accurate as any custom, they can be had for a little less than MSRP if you shop around.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

One of the things you missed on your math.

If you were to buy a 700P and have it trued, it would cost closer to 550 bucks. It is not just truing the action, the barrel must be reinstalled, headspace will have to be redone which usually entails shortning the barrel by a few thousandths of an inch, installing teh barrel and reaming the chamber.

You COULD go this route:

Remingtn 700 ADL with .473 bolt face: 350
Send it to hart for action truing with one of their barrels installed: 650
XLR industries stock with DBM: 750

1750 plus shipping

I bought a 5R and to be honest, I don't think a smith could make it shoot much better, not so I could notice anyway.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or instead of wasting time polishing a turd, get a FN SPR A5 from the get go

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/58129

Folks on here are winning matches with these, fresh from the damn box... </div></div>

This or setup #3
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

I know I'm a noob here, but from what I've read lurking, it sounds as if most smiths are not very keen on truing an action without replacing the barrel with one of a premium make. Truing an action to make it as accurate as possible then having a factory barrel made of lesser materials and with lesser tolerances that will rob that accuracy they worked to attain. At least, that is how I've interpreted it.

I could be wrong, however.

I would get a Remington 5R milspec in .308. Throw a Karsten adjustable cheek piece on, or if you don't like the fit of the HS stock, put on the stock or chassis of your choice, and you should still be under $2K. Put the rest of the money in with the optics fund.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

I wod recommend a 5r if you like the goofy large palm swell it has. Other than that it is a good rifle out of the box. The worst part about mine is the stock, it leaves much to be desired...for me. It may fit you fine. This will give you the chance to figure out what you want to change about it.

I will say that if you go custom I would go straight for a 591 action. The rest of the components are debatable to me. As I feel that pound for pound the 591 is unbeatable in many aspects. Good luck.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

I purchased a used FN SPR a1 six months ago for 1150.00. It came with two extra mags. Added my 6.5x24 Lupe went to shooting. Found the ammo she wants to eat and my last three shot group was .287. That was the fifth time ever shooting this rifle. As stated earlier these rifles are ready to go!
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dynamite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm finally getting some money saved up for my first precision rifle setup. I plan to have about $4000 saved up in the end, but I'd like to spend $1800-$2400 on it on either a used or new Nightforce FFP 3-15x or even a used S&B or Premier off the For Sale section here. Setting aside $150-$250 for rings/base, that leaves me with roughtly a limit of $2000 for the rifle. I realize I am only a weekend shooter so while DBM would be nice, it seems to be an unnessary expense unless I liked the AICS stock. I also don't find long barrels such as 26" necessary, and I'd actually prefer the shorter 20" barrels available. I also doubt I'll be suppressing the rifle any time soon so the added expense of the AAC-SD over the Tactical doesn't seem to be worthwhile. I will also be shooting primarily Federal 168gr gold medal match until I save up enough brass from all my guns to make it worthwhile to learn to reload.

I've done a lot of research and it seems the presiding opinion is the Remington 700P (even the LTR version) and 5R are great out of the box for sub MOA, but to go with a SPS Tactical or AAC-SD if I'll be replacing the stock immediately. It seems the most common alternative to the plastic Hogue stock are McMillan stocks that can cost as much as a brand new 700P rifle itself. I see myself shooting off bipod and rear squeeze bag most of the time so I have no idea if these premium stocks would be utilized efficiently by a novice shooter. And does bedding the factory stocks for 700Ps and 5Rs improve their accuracy? Or are they properly seated from the factory? Are these factory stocks still not satisfactory? I see several takeoff stocks for sale every now and then, and it makes me question why they never bought a cheaper SPS model to begin with.

There are many great gunsmiths that are favored by the SH community. Many of them offer bedding and action truing services. Others have suggested going with custom actions if I'll be starting a new build, but the price difference seems to be quite extraordinary. A Surgeon RSR costs in excess of $800, again the cost of a new 700P, and that doesn't factor in costs of a trigger, stock, bottom metal, or the roughly $600 to put in place a match grade barrel to it. It seems the only way I could afford a custom action would be to spend less on the stock itself, which leads back to the last question I had.

Lastly... just how good/bad are factory Remington barrels? From what I can gather, it's a run of the luck affair with the majority ending around .75MOA from what I can glean from searching the Hide. After truing the action it seems many see groups lower than .50MOA and after asking some reputable gunsmiths, they tell me .25 groups are attainable with match grade barrels. Do I have that picture roughly correct? And is it true that .308 barrels have a peak barrel life of roughly 2,000 rounds before accuracy degradation becomes noticeable?

I'll try to make my questions more coherent with a list.

1. How are the factory stocks for the 700P and 5R?
2. Do you recommend bedding these factory stocks to improve the rifle's accuracy?
3. What is the significant difference between McMillan A series stocks compared to say their HTG stocks which are several hundred dollars less?
4. Is it more worthwhile to immediately true the action off a regular Remington and build around it, or should I build around a custom action?
5. Barrel life for stock and match grade barrels?
6. Why are bolt installations/modifications so popular? Are the regular Remington 700 bolts that unwieldy?

Here are some quick build proposals with some price I have found.

Setup #1.
Remington 700 SPS Tactical $550
Getting the action trued. $250
McMillan A5 or similar stock. $800
Having a smith bed the stock. $250
Getting new trigger. Roughly $250
Total. $2100
(Hopefully I can sell the SPS Tactical stock for $50ish, and $50 overboard isn't too bad, especially if I can figure out how to install the trigger myself. Seems like a guaranteed .50MOA rifle that will last me for years until I shoot the barrel out.)

Setup #2.
Remington 700 SPS Tactical $550
Getting action trued. $250
Match barrel/installation $600
HS, Bell Carlson, or even
a McMillan HTG $400
Bedding job. $250
Total. $2050
(Maybe I can sell the Hogue stock again and possibly the factory barrel for some more cash back. Any idea how much a factory takeoff barrel would net me? I may be able to still have some cash left to install an aftermarket trigger on my own. The rifle may shoot .25MOA or better)

Setup #3.
Surgeon RSR $850
Match Barrel/Installation $600
Trigger. $250
Remington bottom metal cost? $50?
HS, Bell Carlson, or even
a McMillan HTG $400
Bedding. $250
Total. $2400
(Obviously over my budget alotted budget unless I find a nicely priced used Nightforce. I may be able to shave $100 off by installing the trigger on my own. Seems like it can also leave me with the option to easily add DBM later on my own. Not sure if this fully custom setup would even make a noticeable improvement over the other 2 setups already listed.)

Setup #4.
Remington 700P $850
Stock Bedding. $250
Action Truing. $250
Trigger job. $250
Bolt knob mod? $100
Total. $1700
(Seems like this rifle offers the best bang for buck. I guess this setup is all dependent on your opinions over the factory stock. I could go with Setup #1 or #2 as an equivalent alternative, but aftermarket stocks are pricier.)

...Edit.
And several of these build ideas never takes into account potential costs such as duracoating. Unless I somehow like having certain parts black and others stainless lol.

Thanks for taking the time to read this lengthy post. All opinions will be appreciated. </div></div>

Lots of good questions. I'm not an expert by any stretch but I'll try to answer from recent experience because I just went down that road.

Here was MY progression: SPS-T .308, was a .75MOA gun totally stock with match ammo but w/ cheap scope and rings. Fairly quickly replaced Hogue with 5R takeoff stock and started reloading - gun shot .6-ish MOA. Upgraded to better rings and base (Seekins) but same budget scope - No real change but occasional 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups. Sent gun off to SAC for action true, recrown and muzzle thread with a badger FTE installed and bolt knob upgrade. Added a S&B 5-25x PMII. Gun now easily shoots 1/2 MOA with the factory barrel and I've gotten in the 1/4 to 1/3 MOA enough times that it wasn't a fluke. But 1/2 MOA is the norm. Just added a Manners T4A with the mini-chassis. No real improvement in accuracy, but the ergo of the gun is so much better and I'm still getting used to the new stock.

I went that route because I was on a shoestring budget when I started AND I was new to the precision game and wasn't sure if I wanted to sink a crapload of $$ into a gun that I wasn't going to shoot much. Of course I totally got the precision disease and now all my ARs sit lonely in my safe.

If I had $4k to spend and do it all over again..... I would have gotten a 5R and a good scope right off the bat and spent the rest of my money into reloading right away. The HS precision stock they come with are great and most of the stock 5Rs ive shot are 1/3 MOA shooters out of the box. I would shoot that until I wore the barrel out and then rebarrel it into a custom tube after I knew what I wanted ouot of the rifle. My gun is a fantastic shooter for still having a factory Rem SPS barrel. But for the money I spent, there is better accuracy out there. I didn't have the $$ to spend up front like you do, so I would suggest you spend it on a) a good gun b) great optics and c) reloading setup. In fact the reloading piece was my largest accuracy jump out of all the upgrades. Not only in the better accuracy of the load itself, but just in the ability to get more trigger time. Spending $1 or more a trigger pull got old after a while and was not much fun.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

Get option 3 and go all in early IF YOU KNOW its what you want or do what I did:

Get a Rem 700 5r, and a badger 20 moa base, together should be around $1200. Dont do a thing except check the torque on the action screws. Use the other $800 for FGMM 175SMK ammo or a reloading setup.

My 5r cumulative average for all 100 yard groups in the past two years is 0.6 inches. That includes every group I have shot for load workupsand thus were not the rifle's fault, some of which were as much as an inch and a half, so you know there are plenty of tiny groups in there. It loves stock FGMM 175s and 45 grains of Varget, CCI br2s in FGMM brass, with 175s, and shoots them both half MOA at 100, and so far this load and rifle is sub-MOA out to 830 yards on a low wind day off a bipod on the ground.

I have at least 10 groups in the .2s and .3s (fit under a dime) at 100 with the 175 hand loads.

So with the 5r you may not get sub half moa every time, but you should get just a hair over that with match ammo, and easily enough accuracy that you know when you miss it was you and not the rifle.

Going the custom route now you may wish later that you had done something different.

So, get the 5r, and spend the extra 800 on ammo, reloading supplies, OR towards real top of the line glass. When you feel you shooting skill demands a true custom, money is no object, as much accuracy as you can buy rifle, you will still have the glass to mount on the custom and will have learned a ton from the 5r with little money invested. NOW that experience will help you decide what custom features you want, or you might decide as I did that if it aint broke, dont fix it, and just keep shooting it.

My next rifle will be a custom 7WSM or 7-300WSM, only because they dont make a factory 5r in that. I want to shoot the 180 bergers as close to a mile as I can keep it super so that puts me out of the 5r realm.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get a Rem 700 5r, and a badger 20 moa base, together should be around $1200. Dont do a thing except check the torque on the action screws. Use the other $800 for FGMM 175SMK ammo or a reloading setup.

</div></div>
+1, I would also add a new trigger, I have owned two 5R's along my way to the TRG that I now shoot. They were both shooters, I just wanted to move up and I didn't want to wait for a custom.
SScott
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

Get the Surgeon or a Stiller and build from there. You will have a nicer rifle built just the way you want it. Price difference will be minimal in the end. Because you are going to want to upgrade a 5R or SPS anyways.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

I'd suggest looking into a Mcree stock, similar to the A5 in cost. Fully customizable.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

I'm doing step 2. except get a cheaper rifle. get a used R700. only thing you're using from is the action and the trigger assembly.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

From the looks of your selection, you are not going to be happy untill you have a full custom so lets save you some money. Buy your night force and either a 5R or a LTR and shoot the crap out of it. Dont mess with truing, bedding, or trigger. Just shoot it and start saving more money. Then little by little start buying the RSR, barrel, stock, trigger and bottom metal. After your new rifle is built sell off the first purchase and dont look back.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

+1 for what broke_again said. There is a video on the hide from Suarez tactical who compares the cost of truing an action and using a Stiller action and when its all said and done the difference was around $100.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?



Questions..questions..More money on the rifle and less on the scope or more on the scope and less on the rifle??? Even spending for both ??? Whether or not you should learn to reload right now or wait and if you start reloading should other cartridges be considered ???

Geez...and to think of all the countless hours of thought pondering the long range rifle purchases you're considering now and thousands of dollars spent buying and selling rifles,customizing with triggers,stocks,bedding,DBM,etc,etc,the list goes on and on and here's a buy once cry once solution that will be a salve to your painful rifle woe's
wink.gif


http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2519682&page=1

I wish I knew way back then what I know now
crazy.gif


Oh yeah,you'd probably be satisfied with a less than $1000 scope like a Vortex PST,Weaver 3-15 or Bushnell tactical FFP.My Bushnell 3-12 doesn't give up much comparing it to my F1.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

If you have a reliable gunsmith I would save the extra $600 and go with a trued 700 action.If done right they will shoot just as good as any action out there.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

FWIW, I picked up a Remington 700 .308 with 26" bbl off a member here for $375 that only had like 20 rounds through it.

Ordered a McMillan HTG stock in Forest camo which was around $460.00 IIRC.

Bottom metal I got for $30 shipped.

I'll bed it myself. So my total rifle build is $865.00

Will it shoot better than a GAP rifle? No. Will it shoot better than I can for the next few years til I learn? YEP.

Plus I'll be taking this thing out deer hunting so I'll get my use out of it.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

I know this is crazy but if you are seriously considering a the surgeon rsr build i would suggest just going out and buying a sako trg 22 for around $2500 from eurooptics.com or third generation shooting supply.

with the trg you would get

-great accuracy
-fantastic trigger (best one i have ever used)
-3 lug 60 degree bolt throw action that is butter smooth
-ultra reliable 10rd flush dbm system
-reasonable weight 10.5lbs
-adjustable stock with chassis so no bedding neccesary

guys will tell you the accessories are expensive, but thats only if you get sako acc. if you get a egw rail $50 and harris bipod ($100) the only expensive acc. with be extra mags at $175ea.

take a hard look at it, i have owned at least 20 different custom rifles and at the end of the day i ended up with the sako trg 22 rebarreled in 7mm08 (also have factory 308 available)
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

+1 TRG. And the TRG mags arnt that expensive if you take the fact that you don't have to be buying new AI compatable bottom metal.

Also I see you have some buy a rifle and basically strip it to receiver and have it trued options. There are guys you can just buy a trued 700 from by its self and start there, rather than stripping a rifle have having extra pieces. Wish someone would have told me that before I went the SPS route. By the time its all said and done, I will have basically paid $800+ for a trued version of the cheapest 700 made.
 
Re: $2000 to spend. Which of these setups?

First off, barrel life on a 308 is OVER 5k rounds, maybe more unless you load the piss out of every round.And 168gr bullets are probably the worst choice, go with 155gr or 175gr it's about BC.Here's my recommendations:
1) Remmy 5R, no upgrades,scope it,bipod,stock pack and be done....now go shoot!
2) Look for a deal on the EE here for someone bailing out of a rifle you'd build and save 5-800 bucks....go shoot!
3) Buy a new or almost new Sako TRG 22, scope it,and there's NOTHING you'll ever need past that....go shoot!
 
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