• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

223 Load development 1 MOA at 400.

poink

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 10, 2014
29
0
Here is a link to all the targets and the gun that did it

https://imgur.com/a/ONicg

I shot 10, 10 shot groups at 400 yards. Used RSI software to calculate the MOA and average radius.

Average MOA of all 10 groups = 1.006
Average Radius of all 10 groups = 1.21 Inches
Krieger 20 inch AR15
23.2gr Varget
77 SMK
2600FPS average MV
PPU 223 brass.
CCI 400 primers

Ok so 1 MOA at 400. what do I need to do to get it down to .5 MOA?
 
Are you running the AR semi auto or loading it single shot? Try single shot.

Gotta let that barrel cool.

Experiment with seating depth, powder charge in .1 grain increments, different primers.

Hopefully you are weighing each charge and not just throwing charges from the measure.
 
Semi, steady slow fire.

I put a restriction on myself that i wanted them mag loaded. I seat to 2.265, and that just barley clears the mag.

Ive got a digital science scale that measures to .0005 so i hand load each one. 1 kernel of varget is about .02 so im down to kernel accuracy in the powder department. the CCI 400 start to show pressure signs at 23.2 so i have some BR4s im going to try. with those i can get up to 23.8 so there might be an accurate node up there.

I currently dont weigh cases or bullets. would that give me what im looking for?

Also what if i trim the meplat? that would get me closer to the lands.
 
I think you're trying to accomplish something extremely difficult, bordering on impossible. I shoot a GAP .223 bolt gun from time to time in a local 300 yd "Reduced Palma" match, F-TR division. It's not really a Palma match, but that's what it is officially called. We shoot 3 x 15 shot matches, with the NRA MR-63FC target that has a 10-ring of 0.95 MOA, and an X-ring of 0.47 MOA. Using a Berger 80.5 gr Fullbore load that is sickeningly accurate, my scores over the last couple years average above 99% (at or above 446/450), usually with X-counts in the mid 20's out of 45 shots. Although I can clean a single match fairly often, and on somewhat rarer occasions have cleaned two matches out of three, I have yet to shoot a 450/450 with any of my F-TR rifles. With that setup, I am not shooting sub-MOA for 15 shots at 300 yd, let alone 0.5 MOA. And that is with a bullet having a much higher BC than does the 77 SMK, and is therefore much less affected by wind.

The best shooter (by far) in these matches has shot several 450s with his 6BR F-Open gun, with X-counts typically in the low to mid 30s. This individual has finished well into the top 10 in the US F-Class Nationals two years running. My point is that he is not shooting 0.5 MOA at 300 yd using a world class F-Open bolt gun. Granted, these are 15-shot groups instead of 10, but it's at 300 yd instead of 400, and I think you get the point. Nothing wrong with aiming for the stars, but I think you will be disappointed if you expect to shoot 10 x 10 shot groups at 400 yd at 0.5 MOA with a .223 semi using 77 gr SMKs. Even the slightest breath of wind will move those a lot at that distance. Frankly, I think the shooting you showed in those images is phenomenal as it is.

Certainly some of the reloading tweaks mentioned such as hyper-precise powder measurement, and extremely exacting brass prep and other reloading practices may allow you to improve that ever so slightly. I also weigh powder on a very accurate laboratory analytical balance, typically to less than half a kernel variance. If you do the calculation you will find that half a kennel variance in powder weight shouldn't change velocity by more than about 1 fps. My .223 loads typically show ES values in the 15-18 fps range, so obviously the variance in velocity is coming from something other than the precision with which I weigh it out. My point is that there are other limiting factors inherent in what you're trying to do that will likely make it almost impossible to reproducibly shoot 0.5 MOA for 10 x 10 shot groups at 400 yd. In general, semiautos are inherently more difficult to shoot with the same precision as a high end bolt gun using a well-tuned load. So I'd say you've already accomplished a great deal. Just out of curiosity, have you tried shooting it with the gas system shut off and single feeding? Sometimes that can make a difference. In any event, great shooting. Nothing wrong with trying to tweak things to see if you can improve it even more, but I certainly wouldn't be too disappointed if something around 1 MOA is the best you can get out of it for 10-shot groups.
 
Last edited:
I think you're trying to accomplish something extremely difficult, bordering on impossible. I shoot a GAP .223 bolt gun from time to time in a local 300 yd "Reduced Palma" match, F-TR division. It's not really a Palma match, but that's what it is officially called. We shoot 3 x 15 shot matches, with the NRA MR-63FC target that has a 10-ring of 0.95 MOA, and an X-ring of 0.47 MOA. Using a Berger 80.5 gr Fullbore load that is sickeningly accurate, my scores over the last couple years average above 99% (at or above 446/450), usually with X-counts in the mid 20's out of 45 shots. Although I can clean a single match fairly often, and on somewhat rarer occasions have cleaned two matches out of three, I have yet to shoot a 450/450 with any of my F-TR rifles. With that setup, I am not shooting sub-MOA for 15 shots at 300 yd, let alone 0.5 MOA. And that is with a bullet having a much higher BC than does the 77 SMK, and is therefore much less affected by wind.

The best shooter (by far) in these matches has shot several 450s with his 6BR F-Open gun, with X-counts typically in the low to mid 30s. This individual has finished well into the top 10 in the US F-Class Nationals two years running. My point is that he is not shooting 0.5 MOA at 300 yd using a world class F-Open bolt gun. Granted, these are 15-shot groups instead of 10, but it's at 300 yd instead of 400, and I think you get the point. Nothing wrong with aiming for the stars, but I think you will be disappointed if you expect to shoot 10 x 10 shot groups at 400 yd at 0.5 MOA with a .223 semi using 77 gr SMKs. Even the slightest breath of wind will move those a lot at that distance. Frankly, I think the shooting you showed in those images is phenomenal as it is.

Certainly some of the reloading tweaks mentioned such as hyper-precise powder measurement, and extremely exacting brass prep and other reloading practices may allow you to improve that ever so slightly. I also weigh powder on a very accurate laboratory analytical balance, typically to less than half a kernel variance. If you do the calculation you will find that half a kennel variance in powder weight shouldn't change velocity by more than about 1 fps. My .223 loads typically show ES values in the 15-18 fps range, so obviously the variance in velocity is coming from something other than the precision with which I weigh it out. My point is that there are other limiting factors inherent in what you're trying to do that will likely make it almost impossible to reproducibly shoot 0.5 MOA for 10 x 10 shot groups at 400 yd. In general, semiautos are inherently more difficult to shoot with the same precision as a high end bolt gun using a well-tuned load. So I'd say you've already accomplished a great deal. Just out of curiosity, have you tried shooting it with the gas system shut off and single feeding? Sometimes that can make a difference. In any event, great shooting. Nothing wrong with trying to tweak things to see if you can improve it even more, but I certainly wouldn't be too disappointed if something around 1 MOA is the best you can get out of it for 10-shot groups.

Gstaylorg, That was an excellent write up. Thank you for that information.

I might tweak around with some new primers but weighing cases just isnt my thing. I have not tried with the gas turned off, I have a adjustable gas block that i will install to see what that does when I turn it off. And your right about the wind. The range i frequent is kind of in a valley and the wind never really gets above 3 or 4 mph and when it is blowing, it only blows for across the last 25 yards or so of the range. There is an effect of course but I'm lucky in that regard.

I have noticed a few different things, like loading the bipod, even though the barrel is free floated, loading it heavy will change the point of impact of the groups. So i think the answer may be in technique rather than equipment.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to write that, i appreciate it.
 
Is this virgin brass or range pickups? I'd anneal the brass (range pickups), weigh it, and debur the flash hole or switch to good virgin brass like Lapua or Norma. Meplat trimming may help, pointing would likely help more. Measuring, weighing, and sorting the bullets would likely help as well.
 
Nice shooting! The ARs of today are a lot more accurate than people realize. While they're not a bolt gun, MOA and Sub MOA are common nowadays, especially with hand loaded ammo.
 
I shot 10, 10 shot groups at 400 yards.

Average MOA of all 10 groups = 1.006

Ok so 1 MOA at 400. what do I need to do to get it down to .5 MOA?

You're likely better off than you realize. Your results are much more meaningful than someone who shoots a few 3 or 5-shot groups at a shorter distance, then cherry-picks the best couple of groups to make half-moa accuracy claims.
 
Last edited:
Is this virgin brass or range pickups? I'd anneal the brass (range pickups), weigh it, and debur the flash hole or switch to good virgin brass like Lapua or Norma. Meplat trimming may help, pointing would likely help more. Measuring, weighing, and sorting the bullets would likely help as well.

This is once fired ball ammo, all same headstamp. I debur the flash hole, although all of the holes are off center. then i bump the shoulder .002 and then ream the primer pocket.

This is my third type of brass i have tried, doesnt seem to make much of a difference. I also did weigh the cases once, and didnt notice any less vertical dispersion. I might try the meplat trimming. I hate weighing things.
 
Quick update. I changed to CCI450 primers, from 400 primers. the 400 were showing signs of pressure at 23.2 grains. The 450s let me run to 23.8 with no pressure signs. Im happy to report that i shot a 10 shot group at 200 yards that measured just under 1.1 inches. Next week ill do 10, 10 round groups at 400 and report the findings then.
 
If you decide to experiment with seating depths, you can load longer than "mag length" but you are limited to only loading a single round at a time in the mag.
 
I think you're trying to accomplish something extremely difficult, bordering on impossible. I shoot a GAP .223 bolt gun from time to time in a local 300 yd "Reduced Palma" match, F-TR division. It's not really a Palma match, but that's what it is officially called. We shoot 3 x 15 shot matches, with the NRA MR-63FC target that has a 10-ring of 0.95 MOA, and an X-ring of 0.47 MOA. Using a Berger 80.5 gr Fullbore load that is sickeningly accurate, my scores over the last couple years average above 99% (at or above 446/450), usually with X-counts in the mid 20's out of 45 shots. Although I can clean a single match fairly often, and on somewhat rarer occasions have cleaned two matches out of three, I have yet to shoot a 450/450 with any of my F-TR rifles. With that setup, I am not shooting sub-MOA for 15 shots at 300 yd, let alone 0.5 MOA. And that is with a bullet having a much higher BC than does the 77 SMK, and is therefore much less affected by wind.

The best shooter (by far) in these matches has shot several 450s with his 6BR F-Open gun, with X-counts typically in the low to mid 30s. This individual has finished well into the top 10 in the US F-Class Nationals two years running. My point is that he is not shooting 0.5 MOA at 300 yd using a world class F-Open bolt gun. Granted, these are 15-shot groups instead of 10, but it's at 300 yd instead of 400, and I think you get the point. Nothing wrong with aiming for the stars, but I think you will be disappointed if you expect to shoot 10 x 10 shot groups at 400 yd at 0.5 MOA with a .223 semi using 77 gr SMKs. Even the slightest breath of wind will move those a lot at that distance. Frankly, I think the shooting you showed in those images is phenomenal as it is.

Certainly some of the reloading tweaks mentioned such as hyper-precise powder measurement, and extremely exacting brass prep and other reloading practices may allow you to improve that ever so slightly. I also weigh powder on a very accurate laboratory analytical balance, typically to less than half a kernel variance. If you do the calculation you will find that half a kennel variance in powder weight shouldn't change velocity by more than about 1 fps. My .223 loads typically show ES values in the 15-18 fps range, so obviously the variance in velocity is coming from something other than the precision with which I weigh it out. My point is that there are other limiting factors inherent in what you're trying to do that will likely make it almost impossible to reproducibly shoot 0.5 MOA for 10 x 10 shot groups at 400 yd. In general, semiautos are inherently more difficult to shoot with the same precision as a high end bolt gun using a well-tuned load. So I'd say you've already accomplished a great deal. Just out of curiosity, have you tried shooting it with the gas system shut off and single feeding? Sometimes that can make a difference. In any event, great shooting. Nothing wrong with trying to tweak things to see if you can improve it even more, but I certainly wouldn't be too disappointed if something around 1 MOA is the best you can get out of it for 10-shot groups.

^^^^^^^
Believe it!!! Too many keyboard Snipers making the rest of us either think we are poor shooters or need the magic bullet!! LOL

Diego
 
I'm ecstatic when I keep 5 at 1/2 MOA at 300.

OP- you want more?!
It's gonna involve some case work and bullet prep/sorting at the least and maybe a few human sacrifices.
 
Dude: You may well have reached the top of the mountain. Quit climbing. That is superb shooting with ANY gun, much less a gas gun.

Congrats to you and let us know if you start teaching anywhere soon.
 
Thanks for the compliments, And no I dont want to do any case prep. I spend enough time weighing the charges. I hate weighing cases. I guess ill just be happy with it!