New to this forum,new to long range. Recently was shooting with some buddies and they are telling me I'm crazy for trying to push my .223 as far as I am. I'm pretty consistently hitting soda cans at 400 yards wondering if I can push this stock marlin to a thousand. Not looking to be very acurate, but looking to prove a point . Any advice greatly appreciated. Thanks guys sorry if this has already been covered.
- Thread starter Geo driller
- Start date
Ya you are absolutely right. Guess what I'm asking is would I be expecting to much to be able to hit a 4x8 sheet of plywood and then if I can do that work my way up to more accuracy.
Out to 600 yds my 223 AR platforms are quite accurate, at least for banging steel in 3-gun. After that things require a little more guess work but part of that is the limitation on bullet weight (length) that an AR can handle. A bolt gun has quite a few more bullet options but to answer your question, yes, it can be done. Not a great round to shoot 1k with but if you just want to be able to say you did it, sure. If you like shooting that kind of distance though, get a 6mm or a 6.5. It'll feel like cheating after your 223......
Yes, just about anything CAN be done
Are you going to win any contest against 308s, 7s, 6.5s, or 6s .... Most likely not
Bullet selection will help
Look into bullets that can handle transonic transition
Look for the higher BC bullets
Reloading some single digit ES ammo will help
you will need ALOT of wind indication
or...
"Prove you point" when the wind isn't blowing....
Good luck, you should learn ALOT while trying to prove your point
Are you going to win any contest against 308s, 7s, 6.5s, or 6s .... Most likely not
Bullet selection will help
Look into bullets that can handle transonic transition
Look for the higher BC bullets
Reloading some single digit ES ammo will help
you will need ALOT of wind indication
or...
"Prove you point" when the wind isn't blowing....
Good luck, you should learn ALOT while trying to prove your point
Depends on barrel and bullet. What is the twist rate of your barrel? What bullet are you shooting? I've seen shooters use 62 grain green tip surplus out to 600 for a match and shooter use 55 fmj at 300. A 77 SMK will drop to subsonic around 775 - 800 yards but still hit steel at 1000. Keeping a bullet sonic to 1k and fighting the wind for a 10" X ring is a little.more difficult.
223's with the right twist rate, bullet, AND atmospherics in their favor can get to 1K, if YOU can drive and call wind. I think you'll find here, we're looking at targets in the 24"x 18" size range as realistic. Parking a box car at 1K and shooting until you hit something is not much of an accomplishment. Work on realistic target sizes at distance that you can put a first round hit on, then move further out.
If you want to see what a .223 will do at distance come to HardRock . The highest score ever shot there was via a .223, an we shoot everything up an including 300wm. No one has ever cleaned that course and folks from all over this rock have tried.
I'm shooting a marlinx7vh 26in barrel 1in 9 twist with 69 grain smk bthp with 24.5 grains of varget
Unless you can get set up to run 80Amax's or 90VLDs at 2800+ I wouldn't bother to try to get to 1000. With the right setup the 90VLD is a viable 1000 yard load. In F class it suffers compared to the 200 class bullets in 308s but it will run out there better than anything in a 308 lighter than a 185. BUT... that is set up the right way. try that with the rig you are shooting and it will be an unpleasant experience.
You don't have a fast enough barrel twist to run the heavy class of bullets effectively, which is what you really need in order to be successful at 1000 yards. No harm in giving it a try, but wind and max supersonic range are going to be significant obstacles.
can you hit at 1000? yes. but most .223 rounds will destabilize around 900-950. getting to 1000 carrying speed usually means a long barrel and a 80+ grain bullet
850 yards or below with 75/77 grain projectiles with good BC will net you great results in low wind conditions in any factory rifle that shoots decently
add a full value wind... and that equation changes quickly compared to 6.5 or 6mm
biggest issue is that there is so little energy hitting the target that it's sometimes hard to see whether you hit and hear it "tink steel" cause it sure as heck isn't banging anything at 800 yards...
850 yards or below with 75/77 grain projectiles with good BC will net you great results in low wind conditions in any factory rifle that shoots decently
add a full value wind... and that equation changes quickly compared to 6.5 or 6mm
biggest issue is that there is so little energy hitting the target that it's sometimes hard to see whether you hit and hear it "tink steel" cause it sure as heck isn't banging anything at 800 yards...
Give the 75Amax a try to see if your barrel will stabilize it. Also RL15 or CFE223 will provide higher velocity. That will get to 1000yd supersonic, and you will have fun playing the wind.
6.5 guys said they had to get different smaller steel targets at 700 yards because they were destroying their usual ones. I think they went to 4 inch steel at 700 yards so they didn't ruin it at quickly and made it a little more challenging. They used 75 grain A Max. Cool was 2.484. And 24.5 grains of IMR 8208. Not okay for gas gun.
I recently competed (poorly, I must add) in the Berger SW LR Nationals in Phoenix AZ. But my success (or lack thereof) is only secondary, and has very little relationship to the efficacy of using the .223 for longer distances. My failure was of medical origin, not mechanical. More importantly, my Granddaughter competed alongside me, and the success of the expedition concerned her, not me. Her first organized Highpower (F T/R) match; coming out the other side with a smile was achieved, and highly satisfactory.
We employed a pair of .223 rifles, both with 5.56 chambers and 24" barrel lengths. We also employed the same handload, a 75gr HDY HPBT-Match bullet in unprepared Win brass with a close but not Max charge of Varget, and CC BR-4 primers. This bullet because my rifle, a Savage 11VT .223, has a 1:9" rifling twist; while my Granddaughter's rifle was a Stag Model 6 Super Varminter, with a 1:8" rifling twist. This load was tested in both rifles at 300 meters, and performed well within reasonable expectation. The rifles will not process (feed) or shoot the 75gr A-Max reliably due to its greater length.
Once the handload was verified in trainup, it was set aside, and all marksmanship training was performed using factory Prvi-Partizan 55FMJ ammunition at 100yd. For training purposes, at 100yd the inherent accuracy of the load in these pretty accurate rifles was highly adequate to the task. At significantly longer distances, it would probably not be truly indicative of the human segment of marksmanship performance, but we weren't training at longer distances, so 55FMJ was fine.
The match was fired at 600yd, and every shot my Granddaughter fired for score was a 9 or better. I think that's a highly adequate performance for a never before shooting beyond 250yd beginning competitor.
Undoubtedly, the rifles, chambering, and probably the loads, are sufficient for longer distances. But pushing the envelope was not on our agenda.
Greg
We employed a pair of .223 rifles, both with 5.56 chambers and 24" barrel lengths. We also employed the same handload, a 75gr HDY HPBT-Match bullet in unprepared Win brass with a close but not Max charge of Varget, and CC BR-4 primers. This bullet because my rifle, a Savage 11VT .223, has a 1:9" rifling twist; while my Granddaughter's rifle was a Stag Model 6 Super Varminter, with a 1:8" rifling twist. This load was tested in both rifles at 300 meters, and performed well within reasonable expectation. The rifles will not process (feed) or shoot the 75gr A-Max reliably due to its greater length.
Once the handload was verified in trainup, it was set aside, and all marksmanship training was performed using factory Prvi-Partizan 55FMJ ammunition at 100yd. For training purposes, at 100yd the inherent accuracy of the load in these pretty accurate rifles was highly adequate to the task. At significantly longer distances, it would probably not be truly indicative of the human segment of marksmanship performance, but we weren't training at longer distances, so 55FMJ was fine.
The match was fired at 600yd, and every shot my Granddaughter fired for score was a 9 or better. I think that's a highly adequate performance for a never before shooting beyond 250yd beginning competitor.
Undoubtedly, the rifles, chambering, and probably the loads, are sufficient for longer distances. But pushing the envelope was not on our agenda.
Greg
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The range record is currently being shared by a 223 and a 6.5 at Rayners Range here in Ohio. It is a Savage with a Green Mountain barrel. Some of the Countries best shooters with the best guns and scopes built by the best Smith's shoot here. Steel plates from 235 to 1000 yards with all stages having some incredibly small high value targets.
Many of the top shooters shoot their 223 guns for the challenge along with their 6.5 and 6 mm gun at the monthly matches. I was spotting when Chris shot the new record score and it was all really well centered hits. I'm currently finishing up a 223 7 twist Savage Target action 26" rifle and 15 7/8" long rang pistol for this summer's matches.
It's like shooting rimfires out past 400 yards, some say it's just lobbing rounds till you get a hit, don't believe that. You can be very accurate with your 223, it takes a good shooter that can read the wind and conditions. Rayners now has 223/308 only matches to 1000 yards due to the interest with these challenging calibers and the scores aren't much different than the scores from the anything goes caliber matches.
Good luck with your gun.
Topstrap
Many of the top shooters shoot their 223 guns for the challenge along with their 6.5 and 6 mm gun at the monthly matches. I was spotting when Chris shot the new record score and it was all really well centered hits. I'm currently finishing up a 223 7 twist Savage Target action 26" rifle and 15 7/8" long rang pistol for this summer's matches.
It's like shooting rimfires out past 400 yards, some say it's just lobbing rounds till you get a hit, don't believe that. You can be very accurate with your 223, it takes a good shooter that can read the wind and conditions. Rayners now has 223/308 only matches to 1000 yards due to the interest with these challenging calibers and the scores aren't much different than the scores from the anything goes caliber matches.
Good luck with your gun.
Topstrap
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Thanks guys I appreciate your help. I'm going to shoot one day this week going to try some different bullets and powders and see what happens.
It's definitely feasible. As many people have already said in the thread, the key is the bullet -- it's got to be stable in transonic. Then, of course, any bullet in this calibre is very sensitive to wind. For me, shooting a Stgw90 at 1km over a valley was, and remains, the most instructive wind reading session I could imagine. In good conditions (predictable wind or no wind at all) a "jockey" military target goes down reliably (4 times out of 5) at 1050m distance. In "less good" conditions it can get completely random, down to pure waste of ammo.
Also, at that distance spotting gets much harder than with more "adult" calibres. Unlike .30cal or .338, upon arrival it hardly makes any splash. A quality min. 25x spotting scope would be recommended.
Also, at that distance spotting gets much harder than with more "adult" calibres. Unlike .30cal or .338, upon arrival it hardly makes any splash. A quality min. 25x spotting scope would be recommended.
You can forget magazine feeding for most 80gr+ bullets. My wife's 80gr Amax load is 2.505 long and leaves the 26" barrel at 2770 fps. The Shooter app shows it entering transonic right at 1000 yards. A 1:7 twist is usually a must for 80gr+. We will try the newer 80gr ELD match bullets next. They have an even better BC for a little extra insurance at 1k.
Just thought i'd direct this to the OP... http://www.longrangehunting.com/arti...223-mile-1.php
It was this article which prompted me in my latest project.
You can also google ..".223 long range rifle"
another is.."LR budget build"...not on .223, but gives an idea of budget gear being used to obtain the goal.
Good luck proving your buddies up....hope the bet was for beers for everyone..lmao.
It was this article which prompted me in my latest project.
You can also google ..".223 long range rifle"
another is.."LR budget build"...not on .223, but gives an idea of budget gear being used to obtain the goal.
Good luck proving your buddies up....hope the bet was for beers for everyone..lmao.
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Occasionally I would take my wife's 5R in .223 out to 887 at our local range using 69 gr SMKs. They went transonic around 700 and subsonic at 850 but bullets stayed stable enough in a 24" barrel with a 9 twist to reliably hit a 24x24 inch plate. Impacts were difficult to see unless we had fresh paint on the steel but it was doable and a fun challenge when the wind kicked up.
Go go for it and have some fun.
Go go for it and have some fun.
As others have said, wind is the biggest challenge - but it will force you to learn how to make windage calls. I'm shooting 77grain SMTKs and at 700 yards they are difficult to call hits even on freshly painted steel (with some mirage). Enjoy the challenge and advantage of low cost - low recoil.
Saw this recently. It can be done.
https://youtu.be/M5UZC5u9pwc
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
https://youtu.be/M5UZC5u9pwc
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Hard to find a quality 1/8 barrel that will flat not shoot a 75 Amax with some minor load development and seating depth tweaking. You must be very unlucky.
As for "feeding", who cares if the Amax doesn't fit in a mag? It wasn't meant to. Drop it in the ejection port, start it into the chamber with your finger so the bullet is past the feedramps, then hit the bolt release like HP shooters have been doing since the early 90s.
308pirate, agreed on all points. Of course the 75gr A-Max will shoot fine out of a 24" 1:8" barrel.
However, the object of our exercise was to develop a load that worked well in both rifles, with my 1:9" 24" barrel being the limiting factor. The A-Max was ruled out for legitimate reasons I thoughy I had already adequately explained. The standard Savage 24" 1:9" barrels have demonstrated repeatedly since I started shooting them in 2001 that the HPBT Match will stabilize, and the A-Max won't. It's not about luck.
As for the Stag, the rifle was fed singly, as per F Class rules, using a Satern single-feed follower; so it was fed exactly as you describe.
As for the original question; yes, the .223 can be dandied up to shoot remarkably, but I personally believe that efforts to get good performance out of it beyond 600yd are probably a matter of exceeding the point of diminishing returns. It's bad for the brass, probably bad for the rifle, and the lessons learned are the same ones one might get from staying home and simply reading a ballistic chart; the primary lesson being that the .223 is out of its league masquerading as a 1000yd cartridge. I use the .260 for such applications, and would/will probably use the .280 for significantly beyond that of I can find a suitable piece of land for the exercise.
Greg
However, the object of our exercise was to develop a load that worked well in both rifles, with my 1:9" 24" barrel being the limiting factor. The A-Max was ruled out for legitimate reasons I thoughy I had already adequately explained. The standard Savage 24" 1:9" barrels have demonstrated repeatedly since I started shooting them in 2001 that the HPBT Match will stabilize, and the A-Max won't. It's not about luck.
As for the Stag, the rifle was fed singly, as per F Class rules, using a Satern single-feed follower; so it was fed exactly as you describe.
As for the original question; yes, the .223 can be dandied up to shoot remarkably, but I personally believe that efforts to get good performance out of it beyond 600yd are probably a matter of exceeding the point of diminishing returns. It's bad for the brass, probably bad for the rifle, and the lessons learned are the same ones one might get from staying home and simply reading a ballistic chart; the primary lesson being that the .223 is out of its league masquerading as a 1000yd cartridge. I use the .260 for such applications, and would/will probably use the .280 for significantly beyond that of I can find a suitable piece of land for the exercise.
Greg
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Based on another Hide thread, will be testing a few boxes of the .223 73gr ELD Match. Can't tell you how good it is until I try it, but something to consider.
1.050" (from Hornady)
G1 .398
G7 .200
1.050" (from Hornady)
G1 .398
G7 .200
I put together a savage for my nephew to shoot with me, picked up a F class take off barrel that was nearly new. Shooting 77SMK's I'm at 11.1 mils at 1k, hangs with the 6.5 creedmoor out to 600, I'm sure that 7 twist, 30 inch barrel helps. 
I know it is a step above a 223 but I am running a 223 AI with a 22" 1:8 twist (if memory serves) BBL. I'm pushing 75 A-Max at 3150. The other days morning conditions were great. 6-12 mph quartering towards us. Found where I was at on a 25% IPSIC target 300 yrs and used that as my zero. I plugged numbers into a applied ballistic program and ran with it. Then ran out to 600, 800, 1000 and 1200 yds. I scored a first round hit at 1200 and followed it up with 3 more hits. 1200 yd target was a 36" circle. It was fun and awesome to say I have done it. Since everyone knows you have to have a 50 cal to shoot past 1000
8000 DA is beneficial too.
8000 DA is beneficial too.
