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Advanced Marksmanship .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

testedone

testedone

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Sep 14, 2007
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So I took my Armalite AR15 (16 inch Carbine) to the 600 yard at my club this morning. I was using rem 55gr, 54 degrees, 9mph winds.

I was shooting with a Harris Bipod.. My groups at 600 yards were 6-10 inches at best...

My question is am I trying to get something with this particular .223 that just ain't there??
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

6-10 inches at 600 yards out of a 16-inch carbine is very, very good.

Put up a GI E-type silhoeutte and hit it all day.

What more are you looking for?

smile.gif
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

Well...I understand what you are saying but I said at best, it took a lot to get there and it seemed that I could not consistently get that group even after I felt dialed in.

I had a 8x12 steel target setup also and could hit it only sporadically..

I guess I would have thought if I was dialed in (had a good group @ 6-10 inches of dispersion) that it would have been easily repeatable...but it wasn't..

My only thought was if I used better ammo (I have some 77gr BH) would it have been more consistent?
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

Yes.

55s get a lot of wind drift. Quality is generally OK but not great due to inconsistent bases (if using a "Ball" type bullet -- both hollow and softpoints generally have better and more consistent bases).

A 73, 75, or 77 will generally take more side wind (less deflection drift) than a lighter (albeit faster) bullet.
 
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Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

yes...wind drift seemed to big my biggest issue today, wind was average of 9mp but had gusts of up to 15mph at times, it was like I was always trying to go left or right and at times I would have 2-3 in a decent group then numbers 4 & 5 were way off..

Thanks for the advice, my buddy was shooting his AR10 (mine at home) and today I really missed my AR10
wink.gif
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

I think with that combo, the S&P principle applies (spray and pray) and your prayers were answered positively. I would be happy with that performance out of that combo.
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

What twist rate is your barrel? That's the first thing to look at when you are looking at getting the 77 grain SMK's to improve your performance.
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

What sinister and Mudcat-NC told you was some good advice. That's pretty good with that kind of set up. Do you have a stainless or a chrome-moly barrel? The reason that I ask, is a stainless is always better than a chrome-moly for accuracy. A chrome-moly barrel will last longer and was designed to shoot a lot of bullets through your barrel in a short amount of time. The twist rate of your barrel will let you know the grain of the bullet to shoot. I.e.- a 1x9 twist barrel is a slower twist and you would want to shoot the smaller grain bullet (like the 55 grain) through it. I have a 1:7.7 twist Kreiger on the rifle that I shoot across the course with and it shoots the best with a 77 grain SMK bullet. Get Patrick Sweeney's books on the AR15. They are some really good books to read and are packed full of information on the AR15 platform.

Listen to what sinister and Mudcat-NC said though. That's very good for your setup. Good luck.
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Testedone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1:9 twist rate.. </div></div>
All my 1:9" twist barrels (even 16") will reliably stabilize the 69gr. SMK's. Thats about as heavy a bullet as I'd try though. It will certainly help you with the wind. Not as good as the 77's but MUCH better than 55's.
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wicked Weapons</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Testedone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1:9 twist rate.. </div></div>
All my 1:9" twist barrels (even 16") will reliably stabilize the 69gr. SMK's. Thats about as heavy a bullet as I'd try though. It will certainly help you with the wind. Not as good as the 77's but MUCH better than 55's. </div></div>

I second this vote, my experience also.
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

You MIGHT get away with 75's but your OAL is then an issue.
a few 1 in 9's will manage 80's so it's worth trying if you have reason or the 75's don't perform. Short barrels make it much harder though.
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

Re-barrel with a 1 in 8. You don't need to spend much. About $200 will get you a decent 20 inch stainless .223 with windage adjustable a-frame from DPMS. With such a barrel you can match bullet to distance without compromise.
 
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Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

I have been tossing the idea around about getting a new upper for this weapon and that may be the way to go but I really like the carbine length and with a new upper i would "have" to buy matching optics for it
wink.gif
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

I have a Noveske 1:7 18inch barrel that is ridiculously accurate. I am consistently shooting a 12 inch plate at 545yds - that's not just at best, but every shot over and over. I realize it's not a perfect measurement but I haven't had a chance to actually shoot a group at that range.

Noveske's are Pac-Nor barrels and are very well respected. A little spendy, but worth the dough.
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

Oh, and I've heard really good things about the Rainer Arms 16inch barrels, but I think they're 1:8 twist. I think that LW makes them. It's on my list to get, but I still haven't tried one. Might be worth looking at because they're really well priced.
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Testedone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I took my Armalite AR15 (16 inch Carbine) to the 600 yard at my club this morning. I was using rem 55gr, 54 degrees, 9mph winds.

I was shooting with a Harris Bipod.. My groups at 600 yards were 6-10 inches at best...

My question is am I trying to get something with this particular .223 that just ain't there??
</div></div>

Yes, you are trying to get something that just ain't there.

Number 1, you are using ammunition that is completely inadequate for the task.

Number 2, unless the barrel of your rifle is not free floated, you are not maximizing its potentioal for this application.

When it comes to ammo you either need to reload or you need to buy premium match ammo from Federal, Lapua, Hornady, HSM, or Fiocchi. If your barrel is a 1/9, the longest bullet it will stabilize will be Lapua's 70 grain Scenar, Hornady' 68 BTHP, or Federal's 69 gr Sierra Match King.

They will be accurate at 600, but will be a little more sensitive to wind than an 80 grain bullet fired faster out of a longer barrel.
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

So in the end, i didn't do bad with off the shelf ammo.. My goal is not to turn the rifle into a "precision" shooter in the sense of bench rest shooting only, I want it to be a versatile weapon in both CQB and 600 yard engagements. So getting a little more accuracy at 600 is my goal without going to hand loads, I can buy some BH Match (I have some) and use that but for me the practical side of this rifle is to train with it in a varying range of situations.. I am not a sniper, some are it isn't me.. I just want to be accurate with a practical rifle...


You mention a longer barrel, I like this from the Noveske site in reference to barrel length..



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(In my opinion)
Barrel lengths and caliber selection are determined by the following factors: weapon weight, maximum required range, terminal ballistic requirements, ammunition supply, and vehicular or mission-based length maximums. In my opinion, a shooter should try to select the shortest barrel possible to accomplish the given task. Short barrels are very accurate because of their relative rigidity compared to a longer barrel of equal diameter. I don’t subscribe to the school that thinks short barrels burn powder at differing rates; if that were true, the velocities would differ on the longer barrel as well. Also, in most cases, the fastest load out of a short barrel will be the fasted load out of a long barrel. Adding barrel length only increases velocity, which translates to increased range. If you have a barrel length maximum, but require greater terminal ballistics, choosing a larger round may be a good answer. There are too many anecdotes to list here. I like the saying, "Overkill is an oxymoron, there are many levels of wounded, but only one level of dead." Choose what you realistically think you will need, and err on the lighter/smaller side.</div></div>
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

I'd say that's great performance from factory ammo, especially with 55 grain pills. Nothing to worry about there. For fun, try 69 grain loads; they should shoot well in your gun. I have shot them out to 620 with great results, and I shot them out to 710 which was just a smidgen too far for my 16" 1/9 carbine - http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182043#Post2182043 - as mentioned by others, wind will play hell with them, but it's doable.
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

Man, sending 55 grains downrange at 600 and getting 6-10 inch groups is not bad. With a 16 inch barrel (unless match grade), and off the shelf ammo, and only 55 grains, you can't expect much better. Unless you wait for a day without wind, use match ammo, and kept shooting all day until you shot a tighter group.

You mentioned that you wanted your weapon for both "CQB and 600 yard engagements." Keep in mind, that the energy left in the bullet at 600 yards is pretty diminished. I keep my shots with an AR under 300 yards, then use the .308 for anything beyond. You might want to think of other options.
 
Re: .223 Performance Questions (55 grain @ 600 yards)

I was just out at the range the other day w/ 55 grain pills at 600 yards. it was out of a 1x9 chrome lined delton built gun. ace skeloton stock, omega x FF rail, tango down bipod, and a 4x acog ta31f. once i got the wind figured in, 18-24 mph gusts (6 moa of hold for wind) i was able to make 100 percent hits on an e type sillouette target. I could even get three rounds off before we heard the first PING. groups were pretty close to the edges at times, but i think i could repeat at 700 pretty easily. picked up 900 rounds of 62 grain m855 and will try and run it to 800 which i doubt i will have much problem other than wind. it helps that i am not going for "good groups" as much as i am "repeatable hits"
 
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