223 Powder Issues

[FC-Dasher]

I have a Tikka 595 in 223 Remington, my current barrel is a 1:12 Hart using 52-53 grain flat base Berger or Sierra bullets.

I shoot a club match each week requiring 50 rounds, generally I would use RE-15 or N203B and get excellent accuracy.

To speed things up in the loading area, I tried a couple ball powders that I could dump load with a Harrell’s powder measure, W748 and H335. They both meter fine, but my SD’s and ES’s are huge, SD’s 30+ and ES 115+. Accuracy is just aok, but inconsistent. Sometimes I can clean a target, other times it looks like a gathering not a group. I’ve been through different bullets, seating depth changes, primers, powder weight changes and nothing seems to work. I should say I need better than 1/2 MOA in this game, if woodchucks were the quarry, these loads would be fine.

Before I go back to stick powders, are there any Ball powders or one that meters easily that rival accuracy of stick powders?

Thanks for any insight.

 

[spife7980]

Staball match is a newish temp stable ball powder, 50s are on the light end but will go bang.

 

[RegionRat]

Just talking out loud as in food for thought.

What were your typical MV stats like for the RE15?
What primer did you run on RE15 and H335?
What method were you using to charge powder for the extruded?
For a moment, I will assume you were using a more accurate method for the extruded....
Have you ever tried using that same method for the H335 just to isolate how much of the MV ES was coming from thrown versus carefully measured.

When I mass produce XTC or varmint ammo for 223, it is often the case where I try to get away with ball powder so it can be thrown on a Dillon. Those loads are often developed using very carefully metered charges and then the charge window is explored to determine the inevitable effects of the inaccuracies of throwers.

For example, if my carefully metered charges are held to less than 0.1 grains, but my thrower is going to spread that charge range to 0.5 grains (which it often does), then it isn't too difficult to establish the effects of making the ammo using a thrower. My main point is sometimes your ignition and total system doesn't like a powder, and sometimes it is just the sensitivity to the sloppy charges.

A given recipe has a natural muzzle velocity ES even when perfect charges are tested, but that stat only gets wider when the charge variation is added into the mix.

In 223 with a 53 grain bullet, H335 has a hypothetical charge sensitivity of roughly about 120 ft/sec/grain, so, a half grain spread has the potential for a 60 fps contribution just due to the powder characteristic. Now add in the width of your natural velocity dispersion and it isn't easy to hold a tight ES.

Now to answer your first question, is there a ball powder that runs as good as the good extruded ones? Not that I know of. YMMV

 

[Snuby642]

H 335 will seal the deal with the light bullets 53 -55g

Meters fine I run it in a dillon progressive.
Speer 53g flat base and 55g both under 1\2 moa. (3\8) Best repeatable. @ about 1g under max posted for the 20 inch 1 in 8 twist
gasser with a tuner.

It's also readily available.

Heavy for caliber bullets don't do as well with it, too fast I think for them.

 

[Snuby642]

With your class of equipment and apperant abilities I think the H-335 will get you below 3\8.

I may not able to get under that no matter what I had to shoot but I'm comfortable with it.

 

[tomme boy]

You need H322 or VVn135. Only thing ball powder has going for it is easy to dispense. Or RL 10x if you can find it. All 3 of these are what wins most BR comps with a 223

 

[wvfarrier]

I use 335 in 223 and 308 but with magnum primers. Over time I discovered it ignited better with them. It also likes to be compressed slightly. My ES/SD numbers are almost always single digits now

 

[tekmann2377]

H335 should get you there. A few caveats for good accuracy with a ball powder like this:
1) it tends to perform best near max charges.
2) because of its temp sensitive nature, it won't necessarily stay in tune over different conditions, so adjustments will be necessary over the season.
3) you need a HOT primer for consistent ignition. CCI magnum primers tend to work very well. This will undoubtedly improve your ES/SD.

It does meter very well and you should be able to get a charge variance less than 0.2 grain with many measures.

 

[Snuby642]

I like to stay around or just under max book loads first good node in that area. As @tekmann2377 said you get some temperature variations and I think less if not compressed. It gets to be 100+ (today) in Texas.

I'm not at your bench rest level of competition so the difference is not worth eating barrels for my purposes.

I run at 95% of book or there about and the fire formed brass can take more to get to the next load for sure but I had troubles with multiple calibers getting temp sensitive and a narrow node that could easily get bounced out of with less than top shelf gear and effort.

You can drop or throw +/- 0.1g with many products and I can't justify spending past that since I doubt I can shoot the difference.
To me it is literally eaten up with a puff of wind.

Thanks for the tip on the magnum primers I will try and see if I can shoot the difference on paper. Lol

I'm working on my ar's for a competition that's entirely dominated by bolt guns just for fun. A 5x25 34mm ffp may make a difference, haven't mounted it yet. Not sure I like ffp. 500 yd rack down to 2 inch.

Good luck in your next comps to all.

 

[memilanuk]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet... but with light bullets from a slow twist barrel, it's unlikely that the ES/SD is the major cause of any accuracy problems, at the distances that combo is typically used for. Short range BR shooters routinely shoot tiny groups with ES/SD numbers that would give the LR crowd hives.

 

[357Max]

AA2200 is a good option. Not temp stable though.

 

[reelserious]

h 322 is a very small stick powder that meters very well and is about the most accurate powder going for 50-55 grain bullets. I would defiantly try it, best of both worlds.

 

[Moose]

I have a Tikka 595 in 223 Remington, my current barrel is a 1:12 Hart using 52-53 grain flat base Berger or Sierra bullets.

I shoot a club match each week requiring 50 rounds, generally I would use RE-15 or N203B and get excellent accuracy.

To speed things up in the loading area, I tried a couple ball powders that I could dump load with a Harrell’s powder measure, W748 and H335. They both meter fine, but my SD’s and ES’s are huge, SD’s 30+ and ES 115+. Accuracy is just aok, but inconsistent. Sometimes I can clean a target, other times it looks like a gathering not a group. I’ve been through different bullets, seating depth changes, primers, powder weight changes and nothing seems to work. I should say I need better than 1/2 MOA in this game, if woodchucks were the quarry, these loads would be fine.

Before I go back to stick powders, are there any Ball powders or one that meters easily that rival accuracy of stick powders?

Thanks for any insight.

I always had luck with H-335 and 50 gr max.

 

[wind gypsy]

I have found throwing benchmark or 8028xbr still gets me SDs on par or better than the ball powders I've tried even if the charge weight variance is a little higher. If H335 and 332 meter as well or better they are probably great options.

 

[Snuby642]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet... but with light bullets from a slow twist barrel, it's unlikely that the ES/SD is the major cause of any accuracy problems, at the distances that combo is typically used for. Short range BR shooters routinely shoot tiny groups with ES/SD numbers that would give the LR crowd hives.

I believe that and you would think a flat based bullet was a drag .

 

[Mike_in_FL]

I guess it's not as popular as it was but for those weight bullets I've gone through a lot of Winchester 748.

 

[reelserious]

If you want to do as best as you can in your local match i would go with H 322 powder a flat based berger bullet and weigh each charge. Its only 50 rounds

 

[CJRBOLTGUN]

I've been running 748 for years and if i could still get it here I wouldn't change a thing, rem700,26inch vssf ,
25.4gr 748, Hornady 55gr vmax or 55gr Nosler BT ,I load both to the same COAL of 2.260,it's not fussy about primers I've loaded them with Remington, Federal and CCI and haven't seen any difference out to 350 yards , All headshots on small game from cats to kangaroo,been my pet load since 2003

 

[wvfarrier]

I always had luck with H-335 and 50 gr max.

I runs really well in my gas guns with most of the 55 grain options

 

[TX_Dan]

I guess it's not as popular as it was but for those weight bullets I've gone through a lot of Winchester 748.

Ditto. 52gr SMK for walk and paste matches did awesome.

 

[memilanuk]

I guess it's not as popular as it was but for those weight bullets I've gone through a lot of Winchester 748.

I've always considered it kind of a natural law that if a 223 Rem won't shoot well using a 50-55gn bullet and either 25-ish gn H335 or 26-ish gn W748... either the gun or the shooter is defective.

 

[rweaver00geo]

h335 should be capable of SD's in the low twenties. I find it slightly better than w748 but I really prefer benchmark. Im curious on which primer your using?

 

[ICU22250]

The one 223 that im running with light projectiles is a RR arms rifle 1:9 twist and I run VV N-133 with a 40gn nosler ballistic tip at around 25.5 grns and she's in the .3 to.5's.. very good shooter

 

[Doom]

I have a Tikka 595 in 223 Remington, my current barrel is a 1:12 Hart using 52-53 grain flat base Berger or Sierra bullets.

I shoot a club match each week requiring 50 rounds, generally I would use RE-15 or N203B and get excellent accuracy.

To speed things up in the loading area, I tried a couple ball powders that I could dump load with a Harrell’s powder measure, W748 and H335. They both meter fine, but my SD’s and ES’s are huge, SD’s 30+ and ES 115+. Accuracy is just aok, but inconsistent. Sometimes I can clean a target, other times it looks like a gathering not a group. I’ve been through different bullets, seating depth changes, primers, powder weight changes and nothing seems to work. I should say I need better than 1/2 MOA in this game, if woodchucks were the quarry, these loads would be fine.

Before I go back to stick powders, are there any Ball powders or one that meters easily that rival accuracy of stick powders?

Thanks for any insight.

You really didn't give us much to work with such as powder, velocity, or charge weight so its anyones guess as to what is going on. But If you have a powder measure that's good to +/-0.1gr with most powders in 223 that's about 24 fps ES for velocity. That is somewhere between a 4 and a 5.1 fps standard deviation assuming you have good case fill and appropriate primer. If your 30ish SD is correct it's not likely to be charge weight driven. If it is charge weight driven then it's likely a function of case fill or neck tension. Not knowing what COAL you are using I can't comment beyond if you are much beyond 2.26" with this bullets I thing you might look at that. I would look at your case fill and get it up to about 95% or better with the powder that will yield that and be below pressure issues.

It is hard to beat H335 with the lighter bullets in a ball powder. Something in the 25-26 grain range should be good. But a word of caution. The older double based spherical/ball powders are very temperature sensitive especially near maximum pressure. You need to keep the rounds at about the same temperature for consistency and cool to avoid pressure issues. They often require season based loads.

 

[Theoldguy]

I would start with LT-32, Reloder 7, H322, 8208XBR, or N-133. I think it would be worth the time to carefully weigh the powder. If it has to be ball, H335 or X-Terminator. XTR is the only ball powder I shoot with any regularity.

 

[secondofangle2]

try Accurate 2015BR for the 52-53 gr bullets. Thank me later

 

[FC-Dasher]

Thanks for the input. I was running 25 grains of W748 and CCI400’s and 52-53 FB Berger and Sierra’s. I fellow shooter in his 222 and a fairly light load of W748, CCI400’s shoots little knots consistently. I worked up from 23.5 to 25 grains with no great results, my 1 lb of powder got used up.

I got some H335, 23.5 grains, same bullets and fairly the same inconsistent results, until as mentioned, I switched to Remington 7 1/2 primers, groups got tighter and flyers were almost absent. SD and ES were a little better but no single digits. I decided to try a variety of 55 grain bullets, same charge, immediately I started shooting tight cloverleaf groups with 2 Sierra bullets and Hornady 55 VMax’s. I rechecked my barrel twist and it is a 1:12, but for what ever reason it likes 55 grainers.

I have another pound of H335, which meters beautifully and picked up a couple pounds of VVN133. A quick test at 23 grains gave higher velocity and similar groups with the 55 grain bullets. Further testing will come.

 

[Snuby642]

I haven't seen a 1 in 12 twist barrel in a long time.

Is there any performance gain as apposed to 1 in 8 ?

 

[secondofangle2]

One and 12 twist is the original M-16 A1 twist designed for 55 grown bullets

Also, it is very difficult to get single digit standard deviation with a 223 no matter what you do. Not saying it can’t be done, but it’s much harder than doing it with your 308 or other caliber.

 

[supercorndogs]

Seemed like my 1 in 12 and 1 in 9 were basically the same velocity shooting 55g and 26.6 of varget.

 

[AMG04]

As several have already posted, ball powders get magnum primers to start in my load development.

The Speer load manual even has an asterisk next to ball powders that denotes, "Magnum Primer used with this powder"

 

[FC-Dasher]

I have 1:8’s one standard 223 and one 223AI for this rifle, in the midst of trying to figure this out, I screwed on the 1:8. Using W748, there was no major difference in accuracy, so the 1:12 got put back.

I was trying to get the best accuracy for 52 grain bullets, I was told that a 1:14 is perfect for the 52’s, but if you want a little wiggle room the 1:12 could take you up to 60 grainers. Also, if the 1:14 wasn’t a true 1:14, 52’s could have accuracy issues.

I have seen photos of the 7 1/2 primer fire, quite large and violent. They may not be classified as a magnum primer, but they seem to help a great deal.

 

[secondofangle2]

I’m telling you, 24 grains of Accurate 2015BR is magic behind Sierra 52/53/55 grain match bullets. Been using that combo for 35 years.

 

[supercorndogs]

I have been shooting 55g bullets in everything from 1 in 6.5 to 1 in 12. Unless we are trying for BR accuracy. I don't thinknit makes much diffrence. My 1 in 9 twist factory remington always shot just a hair over 1/2 moa at 300y with 55g v max and 26.6 of varget. I say 26.6 but I am sure it was 26.2-26.8 or something like that because I just dumped charges with a thrower.

 

[Doom]

I have seen photos of the 7 1/2 primer fire, quite large and violent. They may not be classified as a magnum primer, but they seem to help a great deal.

The photo you are in reference to is misleading. While the primer produces more visible particles this doesn't necessarily translate to pressure it is due to impurities such as glass added to create more hot particles for igniting powder. Smokeless gunpowder relies on high temperature plasma( gas) or particles for ignition.

 

[Doom]

As for the myth of over stabilization I will include some info from Berger

"One myth related to BC and stability warns of the consequences of over-stabilizing bullets with too fast of a twist. The myth states that: spinning a bullet too fast can cause excessive stability and prevent the bullet from tracking with the trajectory, so it falls ‘nose-high’ on the downrange end, and causes more drag. This myth is easily dispelled if you recall the definition of stability, which is that the projectile aligns with the oncoming air flow. It does this even as the trajectory bends, and even for high SG’s obtained with fast twist. In fact, doppler radar data consistently shows that faster twist and higher SG’s actually reduce drag, especially at transonic speed for bullets fired at long range. The myth warning of overstability stems from high angle artillery fire where rounds could sometimes fail to track, and fall base first to the ground. This is not a problem in the realm of small arms rifle bullets shooting at small angles (under 30 degrees)."

from https://bergerbullets.com/nobsbc/stability-and-bc/#

 

[Hickswr]

My 1:7 twist 223 criterion match chamber shoots 50gr pills with excellence~