Range Report .223 trainer-experienced input needed!!!

[Sam19kilo]

I’m wanting to build a .223 trainer and would like to hear what you guys have had work for you in the past.
-barrel length, twist rate
-rough load data(no I’m not wanting to copy, just get an idea)
-velocity
-trigger?

Would love your guys input!!! ??????

 

[Sheldon N]

26", anywhere from 7 to 8 twist, 75BTHP w/ 23.2gr XBR 8208 in LC brass, 2800fps ish. Also Nosler 77 Custom Comps 22.8gr XBR LC brass, 2750fps ish. Progressive press.

Trigger Tech Diamond because that's what's on my match gun. Everything on my trainer is the same as my match gun, except I run heavy palma instead of M24/MTU/HV, and I don't use a weight kit on my trainer.

 

[Sam19kilo]

26", anywhere from 7 to 8 twist, 75BTHP w/ 23.2gr XBR 8208 in LC brass, 2800fps ish. Also Nosler 77 Custom Comps 22.8gr XBR LC brass, 2750fps ish. Progressive press.

Trigger Tech Diamond because that's what's on my match gun. Everything on my trainer is the same as my match gun, except I run heavy palma instead of M24/MTU/HV, and I don't use a weight kit on my trainer.

???????? Hell yea! That’s the exact insight that need for this build. Not that this matters for PRS, how far have you stretched it?

 

[Triple D]

I’m of the mindset that 24” and a 1:8 would be the minimum for getting really solid performance from the cartridge. I’m planning on running a 26” on my next barrel.

24” Bartlein, 1:8, 75eld-m’s pushed by 24.2gr Varget in Lapua brass nets me 2860fps. It goes subsonic well before, but we’ve taken it out to 1216yds with multiple consistent hits.

 

[Sheldon N]

???????? Hell yea! That’s the exact insight that need for this build. Not that this matters for PRS, how far have you stretched it?

Thousands of rounds 600 yards and in, which is normally how I practice. At 800+ it gets a bit more iffy with progressive press loads.

I've used the same setup and loaded 75ELD-M with weighed charges at 24.5gr of H4895, 2950 fps and those were hammering pretty good at 875 yards on a 10" plate. I feel like I could shoot most club matches with that load and still place pretty well. I've shot club matches with progressive trainer loads and you do give up a couple points due to wind or longer range precision.

 

[dgheriani]

My trainer is a carbon copy of my match gun (except Nucleus instead of Defiance Elite) MDT ACC, Trigger Tech Diamond, Leupold Mk5 and it doubles as a backup rig (I have a 6 Creed barrel for it as well). It has a 26" Bartlein MTU 7twist and I run 75gr BTHPs with 25.0gr of Varget in Rem cases with CCI 400s. They run about 2930fps.

I've got 3000+ rounds on it and I normally practice with it at 600 and in but have stretched it out to 830 before. The BC on the 75 BTHP isn't great and when you get out there and the winds are a bit twitchy you really get pushed around. I've got a bunch of 75gr ELDMs that I've been meaning to work up a load for club matches but just haven't had the time.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Like most my trainer is a twin to my match rifle. 223 and I use the cheap 75's. When I have matches at my house is what I use, range goes out to 650ish

 

[Raufoss]

I’m wanting to build a .223 trainer and would like to hear what you guys have had work for you in the past.
-barrel length, twist rate
-rough load data(no I’m not wanting to copy, just get an idea)
-velocity
-trigger?

Would love your guys input!!! ??????

-barrel length: 26 inch is ideal to maximise 223 performance. I used mine all PRS season as my open rig was not ready.
-twist rate: 1-7 twist 6 groove will let you shoot any bullets especially the 75gr + ELD-M series
- Reamer choice : Minimum a Wydle chamber and even better a match 0.250'' FB

Load***( always start low):
24.1 gr H4895 80gr Berger VLD 2.477 OAL( 0.001 off the lands) -- 2950 fps ( Sub 8 fps SD)
23.27gr AR-Comp 75gr ELD-M 2.513( 0.005 off the lands) -- 2938 fps( sub 6 fps SD)

*Same load with Lapua or Wolf gold brass

 

[SporterII]

Not trainers but as primary rifles I have had two run well for me.
24” 9tw rechambered 700 5r. Short range to 500yds. 69SMK @ 300fps. Handy and reliable.
24” Broughton 8tw. 75 Amax at 2900. This would hold a 10” plate at 1000 yds at sea level in no wind. 4500rds. Plus life.
Recommend longer than 24, my next barrel coming will finish at 25.

 

[Sam19kilo]

26" 1:8" 223 Wylde chamber barrel for my match rifle. TL3 action. I just change the bolt face and use an Accurate Mag 223 SF mag. Screw on the 223 barrel and shoot. Screw my match barrel back on before I leave the range. I load Hornady 75gr BTHPs at mag length over 23.5gr 8208 in LC brass. Shoots 3/8" at 2900. I can load 100 rds on a Dillon 650 in 15 or so minutes for ¢24 cents a rd. I've shot that load to 1000.

That’s awesome and that’s why I’m looking at going this route. Worst comes to worst, my .223 trainer could get me through a match if my creedmoor goes down. I like the cheap reloading and able to get more trigger time at range

 

[shotdown]

I’m wanting to build a .223 trainer and would like to hear what you guys have had work for you in the past.
-barrel length, twist rate
-rough load data(no I’m not wanting to copy, just get an idea)
-velocity
-trigger?

Would love your guys input!!! ??????

I have a .223 Wylde that I have pushed out to 1035 with 70 gr RDFs in Las Vegas. Super fun rifle and very accurate.

-barrel length, twist rate: 22” / 1-8 twist
-rough load data: Nosler 77 gr Custom Comps, 23.2 gr 8208XBR using Remington brass, CCI400 Primers.
-velocity: 2793 fps
-trigger: Jewell but changing it to the Timney Trigger “The Hit” soon

 

[Sam19kilo]

I have a .223 Wylde that I have pushed out to 1035 with 70 gr RDFs in Las Vegas. Super fun rifle and very accurate.

-barrel length, twist rate: 22” / 1-8 twist
-rough load data: Nosler 77 gr Custom Comps, 23.2 gr 8208XBR using Remington brass, CCI400 Primers.
-velocity: 2793 fps
-trigger: Jewell but changing it to the Timney Trigger “The Hit” soon

What’s making you switch to a timney?

 

[shotdown]

What’s making you switch to a timney?

The Jewell I have on there is an old one and has some take up before the break. I recently began shooting for Timney and like their new Hit trigger. Feels similar to a TriggerTech.

 

[Sam19kilo]

The Jewell I have on there is an old one and has some take up before the break. I recently began shooting for Timney and like their new Hit trigger. Feels similar to a TriggerTech.

I have a timney510 but wanting to trade someone for a two stage really bad

 

[m700.308]

Here is my trainer, its a twin to my comp rifle. War rifles out of Manassas VA did all of the work. It's a hammer and has quickly become my favorite rifle!

Bighorn Origin Action
26" Bartlien, 7 Twist, Heavy Palma
Chambered 223 Wylde
Trigger Tech Diamond
MPA Chassis
Vortex Rings and AMG Scope
Accurate Mag- 10 round mags, I had hang-ups with the MDT polymer mags.
TB Ultra 7 30cal suppressor

Current load is:
Lapua brass
24.3gn H4895
75gn ELD-M seated .0025" off the lands
CCI 400 primers
3015fps & SD7

Also runs 77SMK's with IMR4064 in LC brass pretty well. Enough to practice with.

 

[FishDr]

Here is my trainer, its a twin to my comp rifle. War rifles out of Manassas VA did all of the work. It's a hammer and has quickly become my favorite rifle!

Bighorn Origin Action
26" Bartlien, 7 Twist, Heavy Palma
Chambered 223 Wylde
Trigger Tech Diamond
MPA Chassis
Vortex Rings and AMG Scope
Accurate Mag- 10 round mags, I had hang-ups with the MDT polymer mags.
TB Ultra 7 30cal suppressor

Current load is:
Lapua brass
24.3gn H4895
75gn ELD-M seated .0025" off the lands
CCI 400 primers
3015fps & SD7

Also runs 77SMK's with IMR4064 in LC brass pretty well. Enough to practice with.

View attachment 7146741

Have you ever tried running that load on up to about 25 grains? I'm currently shooting at 24.9, and I've got a ridiculously fast barrel. Same specs as yours but with a match chamber. I think you'd see right about 3100-3120 fps..... I'm wondering what this will do to mine??? Probably hard on brass and barrels.... but what a shooter for a 223 Rem!!!

Nice rifle! Thanks for posting the pic!

 

[SporterII]

24” + best for 223 bolt gun and 75gr long range bullets.

 

[McNamara0851]

My 223 is very similar to my match rifle.
Stiller TAC 30
Manners T4A mini chassis
Rock Creek 7 twist at 26” with straight flutes
Wylde chamber so it’s a little more universal
Huber 2 stage trigger
DMR2 with H-59 to match my XRS2 H-59
MDT mags have worked pretty well, metal accurate mags not so much.
Shoots 77TMKS at 2900 with 25.1gr CFE223
Prime brass, fgmm 205m
I wouldn’t change a thing. This will shoot just about anything you want to put through it, accurately.

 

[PracticalTactical]

It's interesting that nobody has mentioned the overall length of rounds and the mags you need to feed it.

To get the most out of such a rifle you'll want to extend the seating depth as much as possible and of coarse have the chamber throated for this to be possible.

That's real simple for single shot target rifles, but not so good with a mag fed repeater since you then run into mag capacity problems.

So with mags you do have a few choices... real AI, RPR 223, MDT, Accurate Mag and maybe there's another I've forgotten.

In my rifle, I have had no luck feeding long rounds from anything except the real AI mags, which are currently discontinued.

I have had some luck with the Accurate Mags, but they are shorter than most if not modified.

In my case, I did the usual, and removed the lip at the front, but I also filled the hollow space at the rear with JB Weld and milled away most of the back rib. Now the Accurate Mag will hold and feed a full 2.600" long round.

To get it to feed BTW, I had to add a small scallop at the bottom of the chamber, similar to how they do it on an M14. It just needs about 0.030 chamfer at 6 o'clock to help keep the tip of the round from hanging up on the sharp edge of the chamber at the back end of the barrel.

As for speeds, the longer seating depth provides a huge benefit as I hit 3000 FPS with Varget. Pressures are up there but not ridiculous. I'm told 8208 could reduce the pressures a bit and I do have some on order to try when time permits.

 

[SporterII]

In a bdl you can adjust the internal box length. With aics bottom metal the Accurate mags are very good. Chamber to suit your dummy.
I ran 75 Amax at 2.44” if memory serves.

 

[PracticalTactical]

In a bdl you can adjust the internal box length. With aics bottom metal the Accurate mags are very good. Chamber to suit your dummy.
I ran 75 Amax at 2.44” if memory serves.

Things get into a little trouble as you get longer... around 2.540" The tip of the bullet will contact the back of the barrel before the shoulder hits the feed ramp inside the action in front of the magazine. When that happens the center line of the bullet is just a hair below the chamber. That's why I had to chamfer the chamber just a little at 6 o'clock.

 

[m700.308]

Have you ever tried running that load on up to about 25 grains? I'm currently shooting at 24.9, and I've got a ridiculously fast barrel. Same specs as yours but with a match chamber. I think you'd see right about 3100-3120 fps..... I'm wondering what this will do to mine??? Probably hard on brass and barrels.... but what a shooter for a 223 Rem!!!

Nice rifle! Thanks for posting the pic!

That’s rolling!!
I ran a ladder up to 24.6gn. It was pretty compressed!! I am happy with 3015fps, won’t push it harder than that. Like you said it’d tougher on brass and the tube.

 

[Goathead1096]

Shilen DGR, Savage bull contour, Bell and Carlson tactical medalist, Timney 510, and a Tract Toric in the attic.
21", 8 twist, 75 Amax, 25.1 gr RL15 doing 2930fps. Single digit SD, 1/2 moa or better for the most part.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

Defiance deviant 24” 1-8 timney 510 80 amax lapua brass 24.5 2800. 26gr in the AI gets me 2920ish. It’s great to 900/1000. Then it goes to crap I can’t repeatedly hit a 4x4 after 1000. Might be stabilization issues.

 

[260284]

I run the 75gr ELDM in my Tikka Varmint 1-8 factory barrel, 24.9gr H4895, Nammo brass, CCI450, 2.49" out of MDT mags. Getting 3025fps suppressed. My son took it to 1400 yards the day before we won a Jim See format team match with targets out to 995.

 

[lead ƒarmer]

Bighorn TL3, MPA chassis, TriggerTech Diamond
7 or 7.5 twist 24" Savage varmint contour pre fit barrels from Criterion or McGowen
LC brass with 80gr ELD at .020" jump and 24.5 grs IMR 8208 XBR. Velocity is 2930 fps (have also used 24.9gr Varget)
I primarily use Accurate Mags with the front lip filed off, but MDT mags work OK too

I love shooting 223, especially in the Bighorn with a cheap bolt head and cheap pre fit barrels. I have actually won several club matches with my 223s and love playing with them at the range. The 80 ELD is impressive out to 1K and a little beyond, have had it out to 1225 a couple times. I've found it makes me a better wind shooter

 

[10000yards]

I have built a couple of accurate rifles using Ruger actions (hell, I have built accurate rifles with Arisaka actions). All they do is hold the cartridge in place while the firing pin does it's thing. With a Hart barrel you should be able to make it do what you want. A more stable stock will do a lot to help calm things down as will another bedding job. Try 25 gr. of Varget and either Berger 80.5s or Sierra 80 SMKs. If you are not match prepping your brass, consider it but frankly the bullet/powder change should get you there. I assume you are cleaning the copper out of your barrel every 100 rounds or so...

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Paint it Orange so everybody knows it is a trainer 223 rather than a real 223

 

[FishDr]

I assume you are cleaning the copper out of your barrel every 100 rounds or so...

To whom is this directed? Lots of responses here. I’ve got a hotrod 223, but haven’t cleaned that often. I’ve been pondering the cleaning schedule and would be very interested in what others have found for this particular scheme - what is your frequency shooting fast, heavy for caliber bullets?
NOTE: generalized - I know every gun/barrel/combo is different, etc.

 

[PracticalTactical]

Have you ever tried running that load on up to about 25 grains? I'm currently shooting at 24.9, and I've got a ridiculously fast barrel. Same specs as yours but with a match chamber. I think you'd see right about 3100-3120 fps..... I'm wondering what this will do to mine??? Probably hard on brass and barrels.... but what a shooter for a 223 Rem!!!

Nice rifle! Thanks for posting the pic!

Five years ago I would have insisted that 3100 FPS with a 223 with heavies was pure BS, but I'm hearing more and more of this lately.

Keith Baker told me a couple weeks ago that he's been running speeds like that in his 223 trainer rifle using 8208 and BR4 primers.... seated long of course.

I'll be out this weekend with some trial loads to see if I can get near there with 8208 and 2000-MR powders. Bullets are 75 grain ELDs and 77 and 80 grain SMKs. I have some heavyish Bergers to try later on as well after I get a sense of speeds and pressures.

 

[Raufoss]

Bighorn TL3, MPA chassis, TriggerTech Diamond
7 or 7.5 twist 24" Savage varmint contour pre fit barrels from Criterion or McGowen
LC brass with 80gr ELD at .020" jump and 24.5 grs IMR 8208 XBR. Velocity is 2930 fps (have also used 24.9gr Varget)
I primarily use Accurate Mags with the front lip filed off, but MDT mags work OK too

I love shooting 223, especially in the Bighorn with a cheap bolt head and cheap pre fit barrels. I have actually won several club matches with my 223s and love playing with them at the range. The 80 ELD is impressive out to 1K and a little beyond, have had it out to 1225 a couple times. I've found it makes me a better wind shooter

What's your oal?

I never been lucky with the 80 ELD...couldn't get it to group properly compared to the 75 eld-m and berger 80 vld.
I'd love to have them perform

 

[padom]

Things get into a little trouble as you get longer... around 2.540" The tip of the bullet will contact the back of the barrel before the shoulder hits the feed ramp inside the action in front of the magazine. When that happens the center line of the bullet is just a hair below the chamber. That's why I had to chamfer the chamber just a little at 6 o'clock.

What mags work is completely dependent on the Action/Chassis/Stock combo YOUR running. Check out my 223Rem Prefit vs Shouldered testing/review. Ive been shooting long 223rem for a while now. Accurate mags with no mods, original AICS polymer and MDT 223 all run great. Running a 75 or 80 ELD-M at optimal length (boattail bearing surface junction right at the neck/shoulder junction fits all these mags no problem with room to spare).

If you are stabbing bullet tips into the back of your barrel you or your smith didnt put a proper feed cone on the back of the chamber to properly feed bullets into the chamber. Ive seen this all too many times..

 

[padom]

Five years ago I would have insisted that 3100 FPS with a 223 with heavies was pure BS, but I'm hearing more and more of this lately.

Keith Baker told me a couple weeks ago that he's been running speeds like that in his 223 trainer rifle using 8208 and BR4 primers.... seated long of course.

I'll be out this weekend with some trial loads to see if I can get near there with 8208 and 2000-MR powders. Bullets are 75 grain ELDs and 77 and 80 grain SMKs. I have some heavyish Bergers to try later on as well after I get a sense of speeds and pressures.

This testing has already been done. H4895 is the powder with 75 ELD-M's if speed is what you want without pressure.

 

[PracticalTactical]

What mags work is completely dependent on the Action/Chassis/Stock combo YOUR running. Check out my 223Rem Prefit vs Shouldered testing/review. Ive been shooting long 223rem for a while now. Accurate mags with no mods, original AICS polymer and MDT 223 all run great. Running a 75 or 80 ELD-M at optimal length (boattail bearing surface junction right at the neck/shoulder junction fits all these mags no problem with room to spare).

If you are stabbing bullet tips into the back of your barrel you or your smith didnt put a proper feed cone on the back of the chamber to properly feed bullets into the chamber. Ive seen this all too many times..

I'm talking about a full 2.600" long OAL rounds here, not 2.3".

If you are feeding with unmodified mags, then your cartridge OAL is much shorter than I'm running and that is why you are not having feed issues.

I modified my Accurate Mags to feed 2.600" OAL, then modified the chamber chamfer to suit what was needed.

There is a feed ramp in front of the action and it is there to lift the center line of the cartridge so it is pointing into the chamber as the round feeds out of the mag.

That works fine when your OAL is short, because the neck brass will be contacting the top of the feed ramp before the tip of the bullet reaches the back face of the barrel and that creates the 0.012" lift needed.

Once the OAL is extended to the point where the tip of the bullet reaches the back of the barrel before the brass makes contact with the feed ramp, that is where guys will get into trouble.

Sure it will feed if I stuff the bullet in deeper, but that is sacrificing the desired effect to compensate for the design incompatibility.

This is why we need a little larger than normal chamfer at 6 o'clock, to help lead the flat meplat into the chamber. Truly pointed bullets will just barely feed, but the flat of the hollow point is what causes the problem.

Basically the chamber chamfer at 6 o'clock needs to compensate for the missing 0.012" thickness of brass at the neck.

 

[260284]

I am running the 75gr ELDM at 2.49" to get .020" off the lands in an unmodified MDT magazine with no problems and still have room to go longer. If I go much longer, I won't have the bullet all the way supported by the neck of the case.

 

[PracticalTactical]

I am running the 75gr ELDM at 2.49" to get .020" off the lands in an unmodified MDT magazine with no problems and still have room to go longer. If I go much longer, I won't have the bullet all the way supported by the neck of the case.

If you are building the rifle around that particular bullet, that's fine.

I'm working with other more pointed bullets and even heavier bullets as well, regardless of PRS Tactical Division rules. If I use this rifle for PRS I can always register as an open class shooter.

As a practice rifle, there are no rules, so we can do what we want.

 

[lead ƒarmer]

What's your oal?

I never been lucky with the 80 ELD...couldn't get it to group properly compared to the 75 eld-m and berger 80 vld.
I'd love to have them perform

OAL is right around 2.450” in my Wylde chamber. I’ve had better luck with the 80 ELD than the 75s, so they might just be barrel specific? I shoot out to 1k with them all the time too so I want the best wind deflection I can get!

 

[padom]

If you are building the rifle around that particular bullet, that's fine.

I'm working with other more pointed bullets and even heavier bullets as well, regardless of PRS Tactical Division rules. If I use this rifle for PRS I can always register as an open class shooter.

As a practice rifle, there are no rules, so we can do what we want.

I'm talking about a full 2.600" long OAL rounds here, not 2.3".

If you are feeding with unmodified mags, then your cartridge OAL is much shorter than I'm running and that is why you are not having feed issues.

I modified my Accurate Mags to feed 2.600" OAL, then modified the chamber chamfer to suit what was needed.

There is a feed ramp in front of the action and it is there to lift the center line of the cartridge so it is pointing into the chamber as the round feeds out of the mag.

That works fine when your OAL is short, because the neck brass will be contacting the top of the feed ramp before the tip of the bullet reaches the back face of the barrel and that creates the 0.012" lift needed.

Once the OAL is extended to the point where the tip of the bullet reaches the back of the barrel before the brass makes contact with the feed ramp, that is where guys will get into trouble.

Sure it will feed if I stuff the bullet in deeper, but that is sacrificing the desired effect to compensate for the design incompatibility.

This is why we need a little larger than normal chamfer at 6 o'clock, to help lead the flat meplat into the chamber. Truly pointed bullets will just barely feed, but the flat of the hollow point is what causes the problem.

Basically the chamber chamfer at 6 o'clock needs to compensate for the missing 0.012" thickness of brass at the neck.

Who said anything about 2.3??? The optimal seating depth in a 223 Match chamber from SPR/Bugholes puts an 75 ELD at 2.49" and 80 ELD at 2.51".. 2.6 puts the boattail/bearing surface way above the neck/shoulder junction which is not where you want it. You are now reducing the amount of neck holding the bullet at that point. Now if we are talking 90's thats a different story.

You are talking out your ass. Do some research, read the threads/reviews I quoted. Nobody is running 2.3" COALs in bolt guns pushing heavies above 3000......I havent modified ANY of the mags mentioned and run those heavies without issue. Do you need some video or picture proof? Youre obviously new in this arena if you are making those incorrect statements.

Nope, no trouble with long heavy, 223 rounds feeding in my Bighorn's. No modifications to feed ramps or mags, not stabbing into back of barrel. No chamfering at 6 oclock.

Did you just glaze over the actual target posted above? And the information on it? 0.015" off lands, 1.943" Ogive measurement.. Of all the 223 Wylde chambered test barrels I have here sent to my by Bartlein, Kreiger, Criterion, Shilen, SPR/Bugholes, Patriot Valley Arms, Keystone Accuracy for my review for SH they ALL have a 75 ELD and 80 ELD touch the lands at the same OAL. Let me give you a hint, its nowhere near 2.3" COAL.....

 

[padom]

I am running the 75gr ELDM at 2.49" to get .020" off the lands in an unmodified MDT magazine with no problems and still have room to go longer. If I go much longer, I won't have the bullet all the way supported by the neck of the case.

Exactly, we have someone here talking factual info and not out there ass

 

[padom]

I'll be out this weekend with some trial loads to see if I can get near there with 8208 and 2000-MR powders. Bullets are 75 grain ELDs and 77 and 80 grain SMKs. I have some heavyish Bergers to try later on as well after I get a sense of speeds and pressures.

If you are building the rifle around that particular bullet, that's fine.

I'm working with other more pointed bullets and even heavier bullets as well, regardless of PRS Tactical Division rules. If I use this rifle for PRS I can always register as an open class shooter.

As a practice rifle, there are no rules, so we can do what we want.

Wait a second, we are responding to your above statements stating you are working with 75 ELD and 77 and 80 SMK and you had to modify mags and modify chamber leads and feed ramps to get them to run long in a 223 bolt gun to 2.6" and we called your bullshit on that.

Now you are backtracking stating you are using "longer, heavier, pointer bullets".... which one is it? What bullets are you talking about now? What chamber are YOU talking about? What action?

You are called out because many of us have been doing this a long time and have done more testing in a month than most do in a lifetime. Im posting facts, not blowing smoke or regurgitating what bubba told me at the range. This isnt to bash anyone, its so we arent confusing people reading these threads that arent in the know and are giving them factual information to work with and make educated decisions.

 

[PracticalTactical]

Why do forum guys gravitate to the conclusion that when someone says something different than what you are doing that suddenly you are the expert and the guy with a different idea is off base.

Guys, I've been doing this a very long time as well and I'm not off base here. You just seem to be trying to fit my statements into the context of your own application.

I didn't build the rifle for just the 75 grain ELD bullet, I built it for whatever bullet I determine to exceed that. Possibly the 88 grain ELD for example... bullets on order BTW.

Different bullets have different profiles and if you test the jam length of a variety of bullets you will find that with a given throat the overall length can change considerably between different bullets depending on that profile.

75 Grain ELDs actually have something of a short nose and therefore a relatively short OAL.

The same goes for how much of the bearing surface makes contact with the neck. Some bullets of the same weight just seat deeper than others, depending on the profile.

Off the top of my head I wont bother to present specifics, but I could look into my jam length test records at home. JLKs I seem to recall are longer and sit deeper into the neck.

The point of my efforts is to extend the seating depth as long as possible to maximize case capacity and velocity. I think we can all agree on that. The bullet of choice however is not a foregone conclusion and I am in the process of figuring out what to settle on.

But I do know this... if you cant feed it from your mag, you cant run it, and that leaves you behind the curve, not in front of it. So I modified the mag and chamber lead to run 2.6 inch rounds regardless of whether or not I choose to run loads that require all of it.

 

[padom]

Why do forum guys gravitate to the conclusion that when someone says something different than what you are doing that suddenly you are the expert and the guy with a different idea is off base.

Guys, I've been doing this a very long time as well and I'm not off base here. You just seem to be trying to fit my statements into the context of your own application.

I didn't build the rifle for just the 75 grain ELD bullet, I built it for whatever bullet I determine to exceed that. Possibly the 88 grain ELD for example... bullets on order BTW.

Different bullets have different profiles and if you test the jam length of a variety of bullets you will find that with the same throat the overall length can change considerably between different bullets depending on that profile.

75 Grain ELDs actually have something of a short nose and therefore a short OAL.

The same goes for how much of the bearing surface makes contact with the neck.

Off the top of my head I wont bother to present specifics, but I could look into my jam length test records at home.

The point of my efforts is to extend the seating depth as long as possible to maximize case capacity and velocity. I think we can all agree on that. The bullet of choice however is not a foregone conclusion and I am in the process of figuring out what to settle on.

But I do know this... if you cant feed it from your mag, you cant run it, and that leaves you behind the curve, not in front of it.

You are deflecting. You started out stating you need modified mags and modified feed ramps and chamber leads to run long 223 rounds. Thats false. Period. Thats not fitting anything into anyone's thinking. For you doing this a long time, you have a lot of incorrect information your spewing.

Everyone knows EVERY bullet has a different base to ogive. Thereforce contacting the lands at a different measurement than the last. Thats why we take measurements before reloading for EVER bullet we reload for and record that info. You have to work within the constraints of a cartridge. Just because you WANT to load bullets super long to extend case capacity doesnt mean you can. There has to be a certain amount of case neck holding the bearing surface of the bullet. The typical amount is the length of the neck when making dummy rounds for bullets (ive done this more times than I can count). The boattail/bearing surface junction should be right at the neck/shoulder junction. Thats a definitive measurement, it is what it is. I wouldnt go much longer. Theres your max case capacity for that bullet.

Many of us have already played with 88 ELD's to death. Nope, not the best choice for 223rem. Now, 220TB or 224V, ok maybe but my testing has found better bullets. The 90smk is FAR superior and is still loaded out of standard 223 AICS pattern mags running 90smk's at 3100 with zero pressure. 223rem cant compete with this cartridges with heavies. Just doesnt have the capacity.

Here's a few reads for you to save you all the "testing" your about to do. Its been done, with actual factual numbers and data.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-prefit-switch-barrel-testing-review.6582532/

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/224-valkyrie-vs-220-thunderbolt.6939322/

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/224-valkyrie-bolt-gun-testing-review.6935618/

Here's some actual pictures for you. Let me know if you need the same with 80 VLD, 80 Amax, 80 SMK, etc. Since you state one thing then change your stance the next post you make. Got nothing to do with disagreeing. Facts are facts.


Lapua 223 Rem Match Brass 75 ELD-M dummy round. This dummy round is just touching lands in a 223 Wylde chamber.








100% unmodified MDT 223, Accurate 223 and AICS Polymer 223 Magazines with this dummy round








Plenty of room still in these mags with this dummy round that is contacting the lands and that boattail/bearing surface junction is right at the case neck/shoulder junction. Perfect. Right where it should be

 

[PracticalTactical]

I'm not asking for your vote.

I'm just explaining what I'm doing and why.

If it's not your bag, I'm perfectly OK with it.

BTW, 20 years ago my 223 load for F Class was 80 grain SMK seated to 2.550" and somehow or another over the years, I managed to acquire a wall full of awards with that load.

And Yes we were shooting F Class here 20 years ago.

 

[padom]

I'm not asking for your vote.

I'm just explaining what I'm doing and why.

If it's not your bag, I'm perfectly OK with it.

BTW, 20 years ago my 223 load for F Class was 80 grain SMK seated to 2.550" and somehow or another over the years, I managed to acquire a wall full of awards with that load.

And Yes we were shooting F Class here 20 years ago.

You arent getting my vote. No your arent just explaining what your doing. That would have been fine. You said people need to mod mags and feed ramps and chamber leads to run heavies... Are we now dropping achievements and experience to sweep all the misinformation and incorrect data under the rug???

 

[Sheldon N]

For me a "trainer" implies inexpensive, easy to load, easy to shoot a lot of rounds for the purposes of practicing positional shooting. This is a thread about PRS trainer after all.

Personally I've not found the need to hot rod or chase ballistics with my trainer. 2750 fps with a crappy BC Nosler 77 Custom Comp. Yes I have 75 ELD's and can run them 2950 out of the same gun, but why? I'd rather be forced to make the wind hold and be disciplined in spotting shots and making corrections. More powder and more speed and more expensive bullets just equates to less barrel life, more barrel heat, and more $$$ without helping me accomplish the purpose of a trainer any better.

A 2.6" OAL 88 ELDM trying to maximize case capacity and push pressure limits is about as far from a trainer as I'd want to be.

 

[260284]

If you are building the rifle around that particular bullet, that's fine.

I'm working with other more pointed bullets and even heavier bullets as well, regardless of PRS Tactical Division rules. If I use this rifle for PRS I can always register as an open class shooter.

As a practice rifle, there are no rules, so we can do what we want.

My 223 is a factory barreled Tikka varmint 1-8" twist. I didn't build it for any particular bullet, but the 75gr ELDM and H4895 at 3035fps does pretty good.

 

[260284]

I use my 22BR to push the 88gr ELDM at 3050 fps and faster. I have considered a 223 AI chamber for the next barrel on my 223 in a 1-7" twist so I can play with the heavier bullets, but the 75 ELDM has a great BC for the $$ and it has been very consistent out of my rifle.

 

[LawnMM]

As usual, I agree with Sheldon. The whole point is practice, not to replicate hot rod caliber performance with a Ford escort caliber.

I run 80 ELDs at 2650, because I can load 100 of them in ten minutes, I can easily shoot to 600+ and I get low teens SD on a progressive. Not blow torching the throat or melting the case head, and it shoots accurately and I'm burning less than 22gr of powder per shot.

It's for practice, not performance.

Cheap Criterion barrel

 

[dgheriani]

Yup, gonna have to agree with Sheldon as well. A trainer is for cheap, effective practice. I run 75gr BTHPs at about 2900fps (rem case, 25.0gr Varget, CCI 400) cause they shoot well in my trainer barrel and are cheap. I have a few hundred 75gr ELD-Ms I planned on developing a load with but just haven't bothered cause the BTHPs do everything I need for 600 and in for cheap. I could see why some guys might want to hot rod a .223 for personal reasons/enjoyment/whatever but it's pretty far removed from being real practical for a trainer, in my opinion.

 

[FishDr]

Agree with the above comments. My earlier comments about a fast/heavy 223 were not for training purposes. I built this gun for a very specific competition envelope. Apologies to OP if I derailed his thread. If I were building a trainer, 75bthp or similar on a much slower node would be where I’d look.