223 wylde misfires

jsimonh

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Recently recieved a new barrel for my TL3 in 223 wylde. Been working up loads using SW Precision, cci450s, 75gr eldm's, and Lake City 2017 marked brass. Out of the first 30 I shot 2 didnt fire. Yesterday I shot 30 more rounds, 3 different combos @10ea. 8 out of the 30 didnt fire. The load didnt seem to matter, because one had 4 out of 10 and the other 2 loads had 2ea that didnt fire. I have another TL3 so I swapped firing pins around and they still wouldnt fire. The last time I had anything like this happen it turned out primer pockets were to deep to make proper contact. The cci450s are from a lot of 2000 that I've used in my Dasher with no issues for about 1300 rounds so far.

With all that being said, has anyone else had issues with LC brass? Should I just order a different brand or is there something else I may be missing?
 

phidelt208

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What was the chamber in the pervious barrel? Perhaps shorten the OAL a couple thousands and see if that works for you.
 

jsimonh

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Brand new barrel with new brass, haven't had a 223 bolt gun before this one. I had a issue like this in my Dasher one time and bighorn actually sent me a new firing pin and then we came to find out that the primer pockets on the misfires were deeper than they were supposed to be. I will check the shoulder growth as soon as my bump gauge gets here.
 

MakeSawdust

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I'm having the same issue with a Criterion in 223 Wylde on a TL3. CCI 450 primers. It is a Savage prefit and all brass was sized .002" below crush with the firing pin assembly removed.

I was thinking maybe a bad lot of primers, but I'm still trying to figure it all out. My wife has a Dasher on a TL3 and it has set off every 450 we have put through it in Lapua brass. I tried her striker assembly and had more light strikes than mine. I'm thinking about screwing my barrel on her action to see if it is a problem with sear/cocking piece relationship. Both guns are running TT Diamonds, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I would be very appreciative if anyone has dealt with this before and knows the solution.
 

jsimonh

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I'm having the same issue with a Criterion in 223 Wylde on a TL3. CCI 450 primers. It is a Savage prefit and all brass was sized .002" below crush with the firing pin assembly removed.

I was thinking maybe a bad lot of primers, but I'm still trying to figure it all out. My wife has a Dasher on a TL3 and it has set off every 450 we have put through it in Lapua brass. I tried her striker assembly and had more light strikes than mine. I'm thinking about screwing my barrel on her action to see if it is a problem with sear/cocking piece relationship. Both guns are running TT Diamonds, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I would be very appreciative if anyone has dealt with this before and knows the solution.

What brass?
 

MakeSawdust

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Brass is LC13 and LC14. Chamber on my gun is not too deep. It is a Savage prefit with the nut set to feel the go gauge. When I try to double tap or triple tap the ones that don't go off, some go off on the second or third try. The ones that don't have about .015" shorter case length to the datum AFTER the fact.

The first time it happened I thought the couple that didn't go off were because of excessive headspace. I then measured the headspace on EVERY case and went and shot. The ones that didn't fire were getting pushed into the chamber to the point it was changing where the comparator hit by more than .010"

I've been through most of the obvious issues except fire control problems or improperly seated primers.
 

jsimonh

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Well, since you are having basically the same issue as me I'm gonna point to the brass. The only other time I had a issue like this was on my Dasher and the primer pockets had been cut to deep by someone "cleaning" the pockets.
 

MakeSawdust

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I just measured the depth of several primer pockets. The depth of the LC pockets is consistent with the Lapua 6 br brass that has been working fine. It might even be slightly more shallow.

The only thing that makes sense is if another .005" of pin fall before primer strike makes the difference between a light strike and firing normally.
 

Jabot

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My friend has same problem with the wylde chamber rem 700 criterion barrel. Checked headspace with 223 go and no go guage it helped some. Ended up bushing bolt now it won't chamber rounds at all. Following to learn more about problem
 

jetsurgeon

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My 223 Bartlein barrel arrived recently from Altus Shooting, I had it chambered in 223 Wylde. This barrel is spun on my TL3 with a TT Diamond trigger. I did send the action back to Bighorn to have the trigger timing adjusted, before this 223 Wylde barrel and its sister barrel in 6.5 CM arrived. Anyway I've loaded and shot Lapua and LC Mixed brass with CCI 400 primers, using 8208XBR, Varget, and TAC powder pushing 75 BTHP bullets. Every round goes off just like it should.

Sounds like something is a miss with something in your rig. Maybe call Ray at Zermatt Arms tomorrow and run your problem by him.....

Hope you get it figured out!
 

spelunk

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The common denominator from all the different people who've had this problem: CCI 450 primers. That is one of several reasons why I only use Federal primers. I've seen 450s fail to go off in several friends' guns including a TL3 and Defiance. I do hope someone can get to the bottom of this once and for all.
 

jsimonh

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Really appreciate all the suggestions for both of us. I tried my rounds with 2 different bolts and the rounds still didnt fire. I would normally go to the primers first but I've used well over a 1000 of these primers in my dasher with zero issues, and I might add using both of these bolts. At one time I had 2 dashers on these 2 TL3's. I may try a call to BH tomorrow and see what they suggest.
 

DIBBS

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@MakeSawdust as @spelunk stated, several folks in my area have had issues with recent manufactured CCI 450's, and I too have had a few misfires, whereas I never had any with old 450s. Are all of these the same lot #, just a change in firearm?

Maybe simply load 15-25 with Fed 205's or RP 7 1/2s and see if the problem goes away.
 
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jsimonh

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My primers were the same lot of 2000. I have about 700 left out of them when I loaded the 223. Hadn't had a misfire in 1300rds of Dasher and now 8 out of the last 30 I loaded for the 223 didnt go off.
 

MakeSawdust

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The lot I am using is from 5 or 6 years ago. It has always been stored in my house with a/c or heat. I have not tried a different lot yet.

I will try a different lot when time permits, but I have a few hundred loaded with the problem lot. It is a trainer, so unless I want to shoot a match with it there's really not a huge problem. I would like to get it sorted out though.

Oddly enough, the lot that my wife has been shooting in her 6 Dasher is a new lot and she has not had any issues.
 

chevy_man

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450's have a nice thick cup. Try the 400, or 205's and see what happens.

I load a lot of 450's, but they only go through the ar's. Never an issue, but I did just get a new box so we will see.
 

Sheldon N

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I ran into failure to fire with 223 on my TL3 before, tracked it back to excessive headspace.

I'd say crank that savage nut and barrel down a few more thou and see if that fixes the issue.
 
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ballison

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I am running almost the exact same setup as you are (TL3, LC brass, 450 primers) and I would make sure the primers are getting fully seated. If the LC brass isn't properly swaged, it can be a bitch to get a proper seat. Try taking some type of a flat edge and run it over the base of a primed case and see if the primer is sticking out. That is a basic way to tell if a primer is seating deep enough to ignite and not just push forward.
 
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supercorndogs

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Brass is LC13 and LC14. Chamber on my gun is not too deep. It is a Savage prefit with the nut set to feel the go gauge. When I try to double tap or triple tap the ones that don't go off, some go off on the second or third try. The ones that don't have about .015" shorter case length to the datum AFTER the fact.

The first time it happened I thought the couple that didn't go off were because of excessive headspace. I then measured the headspace on EVERY case and went and shot. The ones that didn't fire were getting pushed into the chamber to the point it was changing where the comparator hit by more than .010"

I've been through most of the obvious issues except fire control problems or improperly seated primers.
Could you explain what this means a little better?

The first paragraph looks like you are saying fired brass is growing .015. That is quite a bit.
 

MakeSawdust

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Could you explain what this means a little better?

The first paragraph looks like you are saying fired brass is growing .015. That is quite a bit.
No, the ones that do not go off are being "resized" by the firing pin strike. If I hit them 3 times it shortens the measurement to the datum around .012". Before firing they are 1.4565" to the datum. Fired cases measure exactly the same. Some have crush when the bolt closes. The ones I hit 3 times that never went off measure 1.4485 of the ones I have left that I haven't pulled down yet. Some that I have pulled down were shorter yet, about 1.444 if I recall correctly. I originally thought the few that didn't go off were short before I chambered them and that was the cause. I ruled that out by measuring every case before shooting again. The shortest one measured 1.455". After shooting and getting the same results (light strikes) I measured the ones that hadn't gone off. They had been shortened by being repeatedly hit by the firing pin. Measurements were taken with a Hornady .330 comparator.

I think the problem is seating primers in cases with shitty swaging as stated above. I did 100 more last night being super careful when seating primers and I will test them when I get a chance to shoot again.
 

ballison

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I highly doubt that a firing pin strike would adjust the headspace .001", let alone .010-.015". If you think about how much force is required to bump the headspace .002-.003" with a press, and that is with a lubed case. If they were short coming out, they were short going in. On a misfire, there is nothing happening in that chamber that should change the dimensions of your brass at all.
 
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supercorndogs

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When the bolt cams shut it can push back the shoulder. The lube on the brass is for sizing the body, not bumping the shoulder, so much. Whgnbrass sticks in a die or chamber, its not sticking at the shoulder.

I also doubt the firing pin is moving the shoulders that much. I would think it more likely the primers sitting a little proud, and after the strike, they are a little lower. I would be interested to see pictures of the brass and ammo.
 

bunsen27

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Out of curiosity what are you seating the primers with? I ask because I had an issue last year with CCI41's in virgin LC brass seated on my Dillon 550 for a PDog hunt. It turned out the primers were were not seated deep enough.
 

MakeSawdust

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That was my thought as well. I wonder what the difference would be if any using a smaller comparator that sits further up the shoulder. The measurement definitely changed. I have been doing this a long time and know how to measure. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that it could bump the entire shoulder forward though. My other thought is a mismatch between the die shoulder angle and the chamber shoulder angle that causes something goofy. I'm not sure what it would take to cause that much of a measurement difference. Something is weird, but I'm having a hell of a time figuring out why the measurement are different.

I typed all of that and then got curious. I took a fired case and measured it using a 30 caliber bullet comparator. It hits about the middle of the shoulder. Before measuring I decapped it (no, I didn't use a sizing die...I'm not that dense). It measured 1.497". I then seated the old primer back into that case, walked outside, chambered it in the gun and dry fired on it about 5 or 6 times. I did not bother decapping as it doesn't matter in this case. The case now measures 1.4835 using the same case, comparator, caliper, everything.

If the shoulder truly can't be pushed back in the chamber then there is something else goofy going on that I am not smart enough to figure out, as I have now measured this on multiple cases at multiple places on the shoulder and gotten similar results.
 

jsimonh

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Mine are seated with a rcbs universal that I've been using for years. The LC brass I bought isnt supposed to be swaged. Still waiting on my shoulder comparator gauge but hopefully I'll be able to get some measurements soon.
 
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spife7980

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Repeatedly smashing the firing pin into a piece of brass will resize the shoulder. You’ve proved that to yourself, not much else there is to that mystery.
 

codym

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Every misfire issue Ive had has went back to excessive headspace. One on an origin and another on a rem 700. I would order a good no go guage and reset the headspace.
 
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spife7980

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Oh shoot, I responded to the sidetracker.



Alright OP, in those that have the primers mashed but don’t go off, how are they not going off? Are they adequately dimpled or is the dimple faint pointing to the firing pin having a lack of energy? In those that failed have you pulled the bullet and powder and deprimed to see if the primer actually did go off and it was the powder that didnt go off?
If the primer didnt go off, can you put a new primer in the new case and see if it pops? If it doesnt then you have isolated it to the brass.

Keep cross checking like this to figure out the root cause, brass vs primers. The fact that they were working for you before elsewhere and that primers are really really damn reliable as a whole Im inclined to think its your brass or maybe our brasses relationship to the chamber.

If the primers are failing in specific pieces of brass then I recommend that you measure the depths of the primer pockets on those using the depth gauge on the end of your caliper. Compare the depth of the brass primer pocket to the height of the primer cup walls and then to the depth of the primer including the anvil. Then seat the primers and measure how far below flush you are. Compare those to pieces that set off correctly. Those measurements will show you if your primer is adequately inserted into the pocket.
1586308066531.png

The next step is just waiting for your case comparators to get here. If the brass has too much room in front of the shoulder and can slide forward in the chamber far enough then the firing pins energy is spent moving the brass instead of divoting the primer.
1586308613446.png
If the fired case shoulders measure much longer than the unfired cases then you could seat a bullet long jamming into the lands and using a moderate charge weight you could see if that extra pressure on the case back towards the bolt face could be enough to set the primers off.
 
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codym

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My advice and I’m not a gun smith is double check the headspace on a savage prefit barrel with a set of go no go gauges. I have messed up the headspace ( and some virgin lapua brass) with just a go gauge. I will never try to set headspace without both again. I understand there are guys that are good enough to do it it with virgin brass, a few pieces of tape, feel etc but I am not. I prefer the the definite hard go or no go and I stay on the side of just being able to close on the go.
 

MakeSawdust

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Mine are seated with a rcbs universal that I've been using for years. The LC brass I bought isnt supposed to be swaged. Still waiting on my shoulder comparator gauge but hopefully I'll be able to get some measurements soon.
I apologise for getting so far into the weeds.

I'm not sure if this will help you or not, but I have used a socket as a comparator in a pinch. You can use anything that is round that will hit somewhere on the shoulder of your case to compare cases. Some people use a larger case from a handgun cartridge or similar to get it accomplished. It is not as easy as using a comparator designed for reloading, but it may give you the information you need before your comparator set shows up.
 
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jsimonh

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@spife7980 thank you for that response. That is what I'm tracking to right now.

@MakeSawdust no worries man. I have a couple of other shoulder gauges for my other calibers, I'll give them a shot. I believe my order is supposed to be here Thursday, so not to much longer to wait.
 

jsimonh

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Got my gauge in yesterday. Most new brass was measuring 1.456ish. Fired brass out of my bolt gun was 1.457. Several of the ones that didnt fire measured 1.455 and 2 measured 1.452. So I was thinking it was a headspace issue. BUT 2 that didnt fire measured 1.456 like the other new brass. All 8 that didnt fire in my bolt gun fired in my AR today. I had to single feed them, but at least I know it's not a primer issue. BTW the AR fired brass all measured 1.459