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.223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

S

squirrel_slayer

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Minuteman
May 28, 2009
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casa grande, az
Ive been slowly collecting money for my first long range gun. I've had my eyes set on a .223ai from a cost standpoint but starting to second guess myself and thinking simplicity or better ballistics may provail. I already load and have brass, bullets for .308, also have .223 brass but no ai die. Have nothing for a .260. Money is limited so money spent on brass/dies/bullets will limit my optic money. Which would you recommend?
Oh and this will be used out to 1k yards or greater if possible.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

260 will have better ballistics, but I'd stick with the 308 from a budget standpoint. If you are already set up for 308 and are trying to pinch pennies, there is no reason not to. And with the right components it's not much more expensive to shoot than a 223.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

Agree with Predator, if you are set up for 308 which will get you to 1000 yards. Not the best choice but will do it well enough that once you get used to your gun and scope settings you'll be able to keep with the main pack. The 260 is a better choice but you'll have the expense of getting set up for a new caliber. Even a regular 223 can do the job but you better get most of your points on the targets out thru 800 yards unless you get the right twist and plan to use the heavier bullets.

Since this is your first LR gun and you haven't mentioned a brand yet I'm sure if you've been reading these forums you'll see that a Savage is an inexpensive and easy to modify as you go gun that can easily change calibers as your needs change. Easy to buy the action/barrel/stock and other components and put it together yourself.

Good luck with your choice, lots of fun this long range game is but don't get caught up in the "gotta start off with best" equipment right off. Lots of time for that later when on a budget. Make sure you have plenty of money to spend on lots of practice.

Topstrap
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

I agree with whats been said before. 308 is a good caliber and will do what you want it to do.

.223 will be a little cheaper but since you want to go to 1k+ you'll probably want something with a little more oomph behind it.

Or you could use the .308 brass and resize it to .260, then sell or trade the .308 bullets you have for some .260 bullets.

But what exactly do you want to shoot at 1K+ and how regularly will you do so? If not too often, then the .223 with 75-80gr bullets might be a possibility. I've heard of some people getting some pretty impressive ballistics for a .223.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

thanks for the input thus far. guess I should have put more info down as well.
I have my action already. have a savage short action, re-worked the trigger, will be building the stock (inspired by coldboremiracle)

For optics I have a good idea what i'll run depending on how much is left after the build. in this order. midway spec vortex, SS 10x milrad side focus, then push come to shove either a 10x or 12x milrad SS rear focus.

if I went the .223ai route I was definitly thinking a 1:8 twist throated for 75gr a-max's at 2.45-2.5"

I plan on shooting on steel I have a 20" plate and a 10x12 with a 6x6 head silloette. shooting out to 1000 or anything over 800 honestly would be once a month. out to 800 maybe twice a month(300yd range with a 800yd plate nothing inbetween)

two of my other concerns are will I be able to spot my own shots with a .223ai or is it hard to pick up out of a 10x-15x optic?
secondly same concern with the .308 but more recoil related hows recovery time in relation to TOF? is a brake a necessity? 155gr scenars are a little rich for my blood i'm more of a a-max guy. the .208 a-max with pp2000mr loaded long was my thinking but hear recoil is stout.

how well does .260 brass formed from .308 hold up? this may make it a more viable option. what twist would you reccomend for 140gr a-max's?

thanks again for the advice.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

.308 will do the job out to around 1300 if you are pushing some 208 Amaxes at a respectable speed. Possibly even longer ranges at higher elevations then sealevel.

Although I do have and always will have a .308 my main interest these days is in the 6.5 category. I shoot 6.5 creedmoor as it feed more reliably in a semi-auto but being able to form .260 brass using your .308 brass makes it a great option and one well worth looking at!

For you in your situation I think a good solid .308 barrel will be your best option that way you can save money for the best possible optics you can afford.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

I have a 223AI and a 260.

The 223AI costs me about $0.25 less per shot than the 260 does, shooting 80gr A-Max in the AI and 140gr A-Max in the 260.

The maximum range I have available to shoot is 650yd, with 95% of my shots coming 500yd or less and probably 80% of my shots 200yd or less. I have no trouble spotting hits on a 8" steel plate painted white at 650yd through a 15x optic.

I shoot my 223AI at least 3x more than I shoot my 260 these days; cheaper per shot, much less recoil, and no major ballistic handicap to the 260 at those ranges.

But if I wanted to stretch the 223AI out to 1000yd, my 80gr A-Max @ 2890fps drops 9.5mil and drifts 2.7mil...which compares very favorably to a 22" 308 shooting 155-178gr bullets.

I drank the SH 223AI koolaid...and its gooooooooooood.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

Do you have a supply of 223 brass, primers, powder and bullets? If you do, then go with what you have. If you don't, look around and try finding 223 components on the market today.

Sad fact is that with this new assault rifle ban and all the hysteria it's causing, 223 reloading supplies are very difficult to find and expensive when you do. And Biden/Obama are talking about making ammo and reloading supplies a lot harder to get. 223 is taking the brunt of anti-gun legislation.

260 Rem flies better than 223 and 308 and can be made from 308 brass. It's also NOT a "military cartridge" so it doesn't face that stigma. Excellent dies can be purchased readily and brass is now also very available. With its outstanding ballistics and excellent reloading components readily available, that's the direction I'd go.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

very good point on the .223 madness. I do have a healty supply of brass and primers. do not have bullets (only interested in the 75 or 80gr a-max flavor if I did go that route) powder I only have a few lbs in it's burn speed needs, and only one thats really optimal (have 3-4lbs of varget, and only one of 8208xbr) have a few odds and ends like tac, xterminator, benchmark, from my crazy reloading days.

260 rem is sounding like the ticket. if forming brass goes well i'm only out money for dies, bullets, and possibly powder(damn myself for selling the 3lbs of H4350 I had no use for) have some PP2000mr, R17, W760 and IMR4350 I could burn through to break in the barrel with and get a lb or two of h4350 or 4381sc to hone in my skills with.(yes I had a issue with powder in my early years of reloading thought it was cool to have lots of calibers and 5-6 loads per caliber, expensive lesson learned)
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

I went down a similar path. All of my rifles are Savage. I started with a 308 (yes, it is fairly cheap to shoot). I just built a 223 (26" 1-9 Varmint profile).

I have similar aspirations. The 223 is for cheap trigger time. The Hornady 50gr Z-Max has become my favorite and most accurate bullet and is relatively inexpensive.

I just sold my 308 and am mid stream on a 260 Rem build. I wanted something different. With that being said, I've come to grips with the fact that it is NOT cheap to shoot the 260 Rem in comparison to the 308. 308 Win brass is plentiful in the FS forums. 30 cal bullets, lots of pulled options to get trigger time. Take a look for 260 components. Not many options.

If cost is an issue, stick with the 308. You can achieve your goals and it won't kill the pocket book. Do I regret my decision, absolutely not. But I also have a 223 that can provide me cheap trigger time and save the 260 for longer range shooting. The will be configured similarly (including the same glass for at least 6 months) so going back and forth won't be an issue. Recoil is obviously different, but am installing a JP Bennie Cooley muzzle brake on the 260.

I am also going with the MidwayUSA Vortex HS scope. Have two enroute now. I will eventually upgrade the 260 to a Vortex PST FFP.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

I think when talking budget and getting out to the distances you speak of, it's hard to beat the 308. Sure there are far better rounds when looking at ballistics, but when you factor in cost of shooting, it's hard to beat the 308, whether you reload or shoot quality off the shelf ammo. So many choices and as mentioned it's not a round that has been affected by the lunatics on the left trying to take away gun rights.

What kind of budget are you working on for rifle/scope/ammo etc?
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reaper130</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What kind of budget are you working on for rifle/scope/ammo etc? </div></div>

already have the action, trigger, and stock in the works. barrels/gauges are pretty much the same price so thats a wash(.223ai would need a $50 bolt face in addition)

so that leaves me with $650-700 for a scope, rings, and base. and if I go .223ai or .260 the dies, bullets will come from that budget.

I have several thousand pieces of .223 brass, standard .223 dies(so a .223ai sizing die is all thats needed) and 10k+ primers, and a few lbs of useable powders.

for .260 I have some .308 brass that can be formed and primers but thats it.

for .308 I have 5-600 pieces of brass, 5k or so primers, ~1200 168gr a-max's(not ideal but will work for now. from the ar-10 I had)
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

You can load 223AI using a 223 Lee Collet die and standard Lee seating die; works GREAT for me.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

You have all you need for the .308. Just go with that and you will be able to start shooting right away. When all things calm down you can take a look at some other ways to go. Main thing is not to forget the big picture and that is "GO SHOOTING".
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

very valid points guys. guess it is best I go .308 for now and get a better scope and later down the road I could just re-barrel and gear up for the other caliber(s).

thanks for the advice
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

Another vote for the 223 AI. It's just cute as hell.

I like the idea of no fire forming with the 22-204 but unlike the 223 AI you can't shoot factory ammo in it in a pinch. The 223 AI shoots regular 223's very well.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

Just go straight .223, you really don't gain than much by ai-ing it. Although my favorite rifle I own is a .223ai, next barrel on it will be a straight .223 throated for the 75 amaxes.


Eddie
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

you already have the .308 stuff, stick with it concerning your budget. uprgrade things as you see fit with a fraction of the $ you'ld spend on a "new to you caliber".

i enjoy my brake on the .308, though not neccessary, it is convienant.

unless you can wait, then .260. it's a sweetheart, but not as many options as .22 cal - yet, unfortunately.

for "cheap and entertaining trigger time", a decent .22lr and match ammo at 200/300 Yards, just about everything will transfer over well to your .308 adventures.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you already have the .308 stuff, stick with it concerning your budget. uprgrade things as you see fit with a fraction of the $ you'ld spend on a "new to you caliber".

i enjoy my brake on the .308, though not neccessary, it is convienant.

unless you can wait, then .260. it's a sweetheart, but not as many options as .22 cal - yet, unfortunately.

for "cheap and entertaining trigger time", a decent .22lr and match ammo at 200/300 Yards, just about everything will transfer over well to your .308 adventures.

</div></div>

Yeah I think .308 is my best bet for now. I'd rather spend the extra couple hundred on better glass for right now.

got the .22 trainer taken care of. savage mkII bull w/trigger job. will shoot 3/4" @ 100yds with wolf mt if the wind is calm. have taken it out as far as 250yds on a 5.5" plate with good success. have learned alot about the wind with this rifle which is what got me addicted to the sport. now looking to stretch my legs. have taken my 16" .308 gas gun out to 800yds on a 20" plate but with my optic choice (1.5-5 leupold mk4 mr/t) I couldn't spot my own shots. and having a spotter is very rare for me.(sold this rifle)
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

I have both the 223AI and the 308.
The AI is a custom with a 7 twist bbl shooting the 75A-Max.
I a can see hits on steel easily thru the Leup 4.5-14 set on 10X
The 308 is a GAP build shooting the 155 Scenar. Scope is a NF 3.5-15 NPR-2. I can see hits on steel easily with scope set on 12x.
Both rifles are .5MOA.
The 223 is about 7.5# and the 308 is 11+#
Coach
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.


Man, I'd hate to have to make that decision. I have all three (sub. 260AI) and would hate to have to pick just one.

If there was such a thing as a three sided coin you could just flip for it.

Allow me to say this about the 223AI. It is the Bomb if you like to shoot a lot. Components can be had for the cheap and can be assembled to command respect at the range.

B
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

I have pretty much decided on a 223AI for my next rifle. I like the fact that I can shoot without ruining my shoulder. My arthritis is starting to kill me. The main reason why I cannot shoot much from the bench anymore.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

I will hopefully end up with several barrels for this rifle as money allows it.
my game plan is run it as a .308 for now
upgrade to DBM
add another barrel/caliber (between .223ai or .260)
get the other of the two barrels
and lastly go with my first wild cat .17 velociraptor (5.7x28 brass necked to .17 cal fireformed similar to a AI) 20gr@3600 w/less than 10gr of powder essentially a amped up 17hmr thats reloadable. ptg makes a 5.7 bolt head for savage's.

got everything ordered for the .308 build may start on the stock this weekend.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

small update. my .308 barrel got backorderd till the end of august so looked around and found a .260rem lothar walther barrel in stock and it's on the way.

so just need to build the stock and wait for the barrel to show up, find a set of dies and test out the rig.

went with a:
EGW 20moa base
burris xtr rings
12x SS mil/mil Mrad
.260 LW 1:8 twist 28" varmint contour
Harris bipod

picked up a box of 140 a-max's to break it in.
 
Re: .223ai, 260 rem, or .308? budget build.

You'll probably end up sticking with the 140 Amax. They are very accurate and priced right.
 
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