I couldn't break 2500 in my 20" barrel.
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Between personal experience and reading about others data it would seem you could get a Grendel barrel anywhere from 14.5" to 20" and end up between 2450 and 2500 with 123's at either end of the barrel length spectrum. Then you can get a 24" and end up with a long ass gun thats barely any faster than a good 20" barrel.
I'm still baffled by the occasional guy getting 123's past the 2550fps marker.
I'm still baffled by the occasional guy getting 123's past the 2550fps marker.
Three land Black Hole Weaponry 18" med gas length. The lands are like 5R, but really more like Metford type rifling. this is all I got with my 24" AA and 24" Satern. I did a lot of hair pulling trying to figure out how to get more velocity out of this cartridge. Seating the bullets as deep as I can helps too. They get a little more run at the lands.
Count me as another guy that can get the Grendel in the 2650 range (using BL-c2) out of a 24" over watch upper. It's pushing the limit (and I have to use Hornady small primer brass to make it work), but it's achievable. LRP brass really neuters the Grendel round IME...
Only factory ammo but in my friends 24" he's only getting 2560 with 123's so almost 200 fps faster should be way over pressure?!
The 25rd mags I had and I've seen most others using (ASC?) curve out like crazy, almost like an AK mag.
I don't see how the Valkyrie is fad as you suggest. Ballistically with factory ammo it out performs any other commercial cartridge with factory ammo that you can stuff in an AR15 at mag length, yes even Grendel. For hand loading wildcats the only thing I see giving it any competition is the 6mmAR with 105 Hybrids and depending what you can drive the 90gr SMK's or 95gr SMK's to by loading it may even out perform that significantly.
The thing you and everyone else seems to be missing is that this isn't a hotrod round, it's really no faster than a 223 (marginally). It's shorter and fatter shifting the powder load back and allowing longer bullets to be loaded to mag length. 2700FPS is hardly fast IMO, but when you have a .563BC bullet it changes things.
It's called innovation, there will always be things coming along, many of which where right in our face the entire time.
I rarely jump on a new product, very very rarely. I'm still shooting 243 in comps if that tells you anything, but this is one new innovation that I was very excited to see. So much so that I ordered over 5K rounds of ammo as soon as it hit the shelves.
Only one of those bullets has a higher BC than the 90gr SMK and that's the Norma bullet. That bullet is probably going so slow at Grendel speeds that it offer no drop or drift advantage and you're getting more recoil. Sierra is now pointing all of the SMK's and the 90gr BC with the pointed bullet is .563 G1. I don't know how Sierra does their testing but I'd imagine doppler since that's what everyone is doing now. My experience with Sierra bullets has been that the BC is understated if anything.
SD is a number calculated from velocities of a string and is the average deviation round to round. And yes 20fps can easily be an accurate SD for a 77fps ES. It just means that the average deviation was 20fps shot to shot. Depending on whether it throws one shot way high or low or they all have a pretty large spread the SD is usually anything from 20%-50% of the ES, it just depends on all of the individual shots in the string. He probably got his SD off of his chrono which automatically calculates it... I highly doubt that the chrono is calculating that wrong, if something is going to be off on a chrono it's going to be a velocity reading.
I've got 3 BHW AR15 barrels sitting on my bench right now that I bought after hearing a bunch of people claiming you get much higher velocities than other barrels because of the rifling... Based on my testing I believe this is regurgitated information from the manufacturer because that's what they tell customers. All of the barrels shoot phenomenally and are very good barrels but they got no more velocity that I see with other makers top quality barrels of the same length.
You're claiming higher velocities than people get out of longer barreled bolt rifles which notoriously give higher velocities than gassers and you can push pressure a bit more.
What chronograph are you using? What charge weights of what powders?
And how often are you eating through bolts pushing the round that hard?
I was just made aware that Sierra was pointing their bullets. The old 90 gr. bullets that I shot awhile ago were not pointed.
Sierra tests bullets in their 300 yd. underground facility. I do not know if that is based on doppler readings, which would be pointless at that range, or drops. Which that range gives you just enough room to do. I also understand that the BC's are partly determined by by bullet form.
Where are you getting this info? I can't imagine for the life of me that Sierra is getting their BC's from a 300 yard test tunnel. Accuracy and stabilization testing maybe, but not BC. 300 yards isn't going to tell you anything definitive for BC on these types of bullets.
The doppler that companies are using now is about $100K, I know this because I looked into purchasing one. A $100K investment for a piece of equipment such as this to give accurate and true BC's isn't an overly huge investment to a company that would have pockets like Sierra. I don't know for sure that they use this but I'd be very surprised if they don't.
I do know for a fact that Sierra gives bullets out to very experienced shooters before they ever become a production product for testing and feedback. There's a chance they may be using BC's these testers provide from their testing for their numbers or to confirm there numbers, but again I don't know.
What I do know is that all of my experience with Sierra bullets over the years is that the BC's are a bit understated if they are off at all. I don't doubt that anything they're publishing is anything but accurate.
I said I DO NOT know exactly how they are obtaining their information. Read and understand, before putting words in someones mouth. I do know they do a lot of testing in their 300 yd. facility.
Based on your wording I interpreted it as you suggesting that's how they test.
I have sent them an email on this topic, I'll share it once I receive an answer.
Well, don't interpret, read it for what it is.
As noted, in the past when I tested the Sierra 90 gr. bullets they did not have the BC that the better 6.5's had. Keep in mind there were only a few bullets that shine in the 6.5G. 100-130 gr. Anything heavier and you can't push them fast enough. All other 6.5 Bullets are pretty much too stubby for a good BC. Lighter and stubbier leads to only short range usability.
In that vein, what I haven't said that needs to be said, is if Sierra finally got off their stick and made some truly high BC .224" bullets, then that is outstanding. Skinnnier is going to naturally enhance the form of a bullet when developing a high BC bullet. Just like a 6.5 is better in that regard than a .30 cal, the .224" is going to be better than 6mm or 6.5. but, you have to combine it with that with enough weight in the bullet to matter. Until we had talked about what Sierra is doing with their 90 gr. and new 95 gr. bullets, I did not see this happening. With approximately the same ability to produce power as the 6.5G, the 6.8 case necked to .224" with these bullets will be a good combination.
My not liking it in previous posts is that I did not know the advancements made by Sierra in the .224" bullets.
Sierra replied,
We determine BC by doing a time of flight test. Time of flight has always been the most accurate system for figuring BC that we have found. This time of flight result is then compared to a G1 to come up with BC. Yes, we have used Doppler radar out to 1,000 yds.
We determine BC by doing a time of flight test. Time of flight has always been the most accurate system for figuring BC that we have found. This time of flight result is then compared to a G1 to come up with BC. Yes, we have used Doppler radar out to 1,000 yds.
It's probably been mentioned in this thread, and maybe in others, but for 224V in a semiauto I wouldn't mind pushing pressures a bit since brass gets beat up some anyway compared to a bolt gun. We don't know yet but 2800 + fps with 90's might very well be doable with Fed brass, almost certain when tougher brass comes out! That'd be cool, wouldn't it?! This is just the beginning. I just think it's a neat round and IMO it's what the AR should have been created for to begin with.
I appreciate you getting that information Niles.
Not to question you, rather Sierra, but how does TOF give relative information unless the TOF is from an established point? Comparing it to a G1 is a one pound, one inch diameter bullet moving at 1800 fps.
I could see it being in conjunction with AOI (angle of incidence, or come up) and a given velocity.
I guess my issue with the whole thing is, from testing many different venues for years, I feel like we've been sold a truckload of turnips a time or two before. Now that I'm seeing the improvement in the bullet (what I've been saying all along [improve the bullet not the case]), I think this is a viable improvement worth getting into. As long as the bullet BC's are correct. The case will improve the performance of these bullets.
Higher pressure should be ok on the bolt too. The SPC has a good bit more meat on the bolt compared to the Grendel’s which eat bolts when pushed hard.
I saw new Federal brass listed somewhere for around $25/100. At that price you could fire it once and leave it on the ground if it gets trashed in one firing and still be $$ ahead vs price per round for factory stuff. A lot more time involved but also making more consistent ammo too.
I’m really curious what it’s truly capable of because a Federal tech has already publicly stated that it’s loaded to low pressures. Alli any has published some numbers which got 2760 with power pro and their load data tends to be way on the conservative side.
I’ve got ammo, components, and all the parts here except for the JP bolt which is backordered until who knows when.
the BC may be improving, jury is still out on the 95gr being a better bullet. I want to see some ran hot in barrel with some rounds on it before I'm convinced. Over the last 15 or so years, a new design usually is accompanied by blow-ups. Kind of like Hornaday bullets forever
Not gonna lie, an updated mk12 Mod0 in 224v would be a lot of fun. 95s be damned an 80gr at 2650-2700 would be a hell of a 600y carbine.
Not gonna lie, an updated mk12 Mod0 in 224v would be a lot of fun. 95s be damned an 80gr at 2650-2700 would be a hell of a 600y carbine.
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The 25rd ASC's look pretty normal to me:http://www.ammosc.com/6-5-grendel-25-rd-magazine/
Also I'm not sure how you don't include the 22 Grendel in your comparison, It seems guys can safely and accurately get 80's to 3100fps without trashing brass. At least one barrel maker claims 90's near 3000fps. The 224V almost seems irrelevant at that point.
I'm on a 224 Valkyrie reloading group on FB, one person has already made 2800fps with a 22" barreled AR using 25 grains of Varget under the 90smk.
2800 out of a 22” in a gas gun sounds pretty awesome.
I stumbled on this today. I have no experience with Starline Brass. Is it any good? Sorry if its already been posted.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/224-Valkyrie/
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/224-Valkyrie/
I use Starline brass for my Henry 41 mag. No complaints. Seems well made, but I haven't tried any of their rifle caliber brass.
I got board and did some more measuring.
Sample size, 10 from 200 round case
90gr Federal lot# R53E020
OD neck size .2505-.251
Adv loaded case weight= 234.46 ES= 2.1gr
COAL 2.253-2.245
Ogive 1.735-1.728
Sample size, 10 from 200 round case
90gr Federal lot# R53E005
OD neck size .2505-.251
Adv loaded case weight= 234.64 ES= 3.7gr
COAL 2.255-2.245
Ogive 1.732-1.721
Sample size, 10 from 200 round case
75gr Federal American Eagle lot# R33P344
OD neck size .2505-.251
Adv loaded case weight= 223.09 ES= 0.9
COAL 2.145-2.137
Ogive 1.741-1.748
Sample size, 10 from 200 round case
90gr Federal lot# R53E020
OD neck size .2505-.251
Adv loaded case weight= 234.46 ES= 2.1gr
COAL 2.253-2.245
Ogive 1.735-1.728
Sample size, 10 from 200 round case
90gr Federal lot# R53E005
OD neck size .2505-.251
Adv loaded case weight= 234.64 ES= 3.7gr
COAL 2.255-2.245
Ogive 1.732-1.721
Sample size, 10 from 200 round case
75gr Federal American Eagle lot# R33P344
OD neck size .2505-.251
Adv loaded case weight= 223.09 ES= 0.9
COAL 2.145-2.137
Ogive 1.741-1.748
Great article, thanks.
WOA also has barrels in stock for $330. Second video shows better results but 2900fps with a 77gr SMK out of what i'm assuming is an 18" barrel isn't too shabby.
I recently purchased 100 Starline .223 brass cases, loaded them, fired them, reloaded them, and then bought 500 in bulk of the same from Midway. I now also have 50 Starline .308 cases for testing.
Greg
Greg
Good video, thanks. I'm planning on using 80 ELDs more than 90 SMK with mine. Good to see decent velocity in that video. If he can hit 2880 with an 18" barrel, I should be able to get over 2900 with a 22". Both of which should beat out a 90 SMK at 2700. I was hoping for a little better accuracy, but his barrel will be different than mine.
Also I have found the 75/80 ELD to like =<.015" of jump, Any more than that and they kinda scatter in my .223's
For those of us that already have a Grendel, mags and brass, seems this is the better route to go. I'm in need of re-barreling my Grendel AR, so been kicking around the .224 Val as compared to 6AR, and as of this morning looking at the .224AR/Grendel or whatever they call it. Seems for someone that is going to be hand loading, the Grendel based cartridges are the better way to go. Except for factory loaded rounds, which would be kinda neat for 6mmAR or .22AR. Might be nice to see a 6.5 115gr high BC bullet to push the boundaries of the 6.5 more. Then again the availability of .224Val factory ammo is definitely appealing. Decisions decisions.
Been looking for something like this for a while. Website says they will sell extension bolt and upper receiver. Compatable with any AR15 handguards. Q who...
Hey guys just to give you other sources we have few groups over on Facebook been on the frontier from day one and been talking and building BA Valks since spring. Got good insight on reloading for it as well. Check us out if your looking for good proven info.https://www.facebook.com/groups/1607800592668660/ 224 Valkyrie Bolt Rifles and https://www.facebook.com/groups/398943407218038/ for 224 Valkyrie Reloading
Do you have info available for those of us not on Facebook?
He’s gone already. Cross Posted the same links in 6 or more places. Against the rules.
So what have people been running for AICS mags? I'm hoping to start my build soon but I dont want to start buying stuff till I know it'll work.
I haven’t run mine yet so take it with a grain of salt. I bought an Accurate 10 round mag and a Primal Rights 6BR kit. All I need to do is tweak the feed lips. There are measurements given so I’m going to start with those and see how it feeds.
Thanks! After listening to frank and brian talk about the 224 and its pros it's hard not to want one, I cant speak to the 6.5 grendel but it seems that components for the valkyrie are cheaper. Mainly bullets. I hate the off the shelf argument because I dont know the last time I bought a box of ammo but at $10~ it's nice to have a back up plan.
What I like most
Cost
Low recoil
Moderate performance
Good for small wife & children
The down side is energy on target but I figure itd do fine on coyotes out to 600. The value of getting more trigger time while my family is growing is the biggest draw.
Too many people hate progress, that's what I hear when people say "why reinvent the wheel?" Most progress isn't made in leaps and bounds, this may not be the be all end all of small rifle calibers but I like seeing new ideas put into practice and the things we learn from them. Also it's a good sign the economy is doing well. I'm not good at making decisions, that's why my wife sends me to pick out cereal while she gets all the read grocery shopping done, but I'll never complain about too many choices! What a time to be alive! Just my thoughts on what I've read so far.
What I like most
Cost
Low recoil
Moderate performance
Good for small wife & children
The down side is energy on target but I figure itd do fine on coyotes out to 600. The value of getting more trigger time while my family is growing is the biggest draw.
Too many people hate progress, that's what I hear when people say "why reinvent the wheel?" Most progress isn't made in leaps and bounds, this may not be the be all end all of small rifle calibers but I like seeing new ideas put into practice and the things we learn from them. Also it's a good sign the economy is doing well. I'm not good at making decisions, that's why my wife sends me to pick out cereal while she gets all the read grocery shopping done, but I'll never complain about too many choices! What a time to be alive! Just my thoughts on what I've read so far.
Ps. The .224 is good for wife and children to shoot.
And what would everyone consider to be a good barrel length on a bolt gun, 95% targets/matches but some varment. I can shoot out to 1k regularly but I like a usable gun. 24"? Slinging 88's? Do I need more or can I get away with less without losing much?
And what would everyone consider to be a good barrel length on a bolt gun, 95% targets/matches but some varment. I can shoot out to 1k regularly but I like a usable gun. 24"? Slinging 88's? Do I need more or can I get away with less without losing much?
I was going to try 26+ my can. It’s a lot easier to take some off then add some.
Are you planning to mimic another rifle? I'm curious to see what conture is best and how heat will play in with this caliber, and how tunable it is with a longer barrel. If the barrel ended at .675-.700 it might still be plenty manageable at 26" for hunting.
No. My target rifle is an AXMC in 260. This will be one to hunt with and loan out to friends who want to try PRS style shoots. From what I’ve heard the barrel shouldn’t get too hot.
Yea their douche sheriff is on a power trip and scolded me 20 seconds in for talking about the xcaliber sale and asking if anyone had one of their barrels. "You should have used the search function" he says. Well I did use that function and found a whopping two posts on xcaliber with no info on how they shot. He doubled down and I made him feel like a moron by telling him maybe they should encourage discussion rather than snuff it out considering I was the first post in the group in the last 24 hours, it is like a ghost town over there with very little info. He came back with some shit and I made him look like a clown so he deleted parts of my comments so it looked like he pushed me around and then deleted me lol. I reported them and got them kicked out of here lol. Karma is a bitch.
Yeah, I saw yours and Lowlight’s posts this morning here. I’m not on FB, so didn’t see that party.
It was funny. My post was something like...
Man I got a smokin deal on a x-caliber barrel yesterday. 45% off, I got exactly what I wanted for $207. Anyone else get one? How are the x-calibers shooting?
Then the gestapo show up literally 20 seconds later. Paraphrasing...
"If you had read the first post like you were supposed to when you joined(which is required by the way) you would know that you should use the search function to find the information you need. We want to keep redundant information down."
I reply that I was really just posting about the sale and making conversation and that I did use the search and didn't find much info about x-caliber.
He doubles down...
"No you are not. The sale is over and you are asking a question about how the barrels shoot"
Lmao. I let him have it after that.
Moderators on a power trip crack me up. They are the rent-a-cops of the internet. If they are here pimping out their little group they apparently care about getting more members. Why the hell would they act like total douche bags to new members while trying to stop any discussion that they think may have already been discussed? It's not a freaking database. It is facebook. It is designed for discussion. And considering myself, the gestapo, and the tumbleweed blowing through where the only ones around, I can't fathom why my post was such a threat to the neatness of their info. No one is posting anything. Every now and then someone posts that their barrel wont shoot. Then someone asks if they have checked their scope mount screws for tightness. Freaking groundbreaking......
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