22CM vs 6CM for prs/nrl style shooting?

[CK1.0]

I’ve been running a 6CM for a while, favoring heavy and “slow” loads running it kind of more like a big Dasher (115DTAC’s at ~2900fps)...

I dig it, no problems at all with it really, except I’m kind of getting sick of looking for bullets everyday to no avail... any decent 105+ grain .243 bullets are scarce. When they do show up, it’s only a box of 100 here and there which sucks.

I’ve got enough components to burn up my current barrel (with about 800-1000 rounds left on it depending on how lucky I am), and already have another identical brand new 6CM barrel ready to go (and the primers and powder to toast it), I just still have no bullets for it yet...

Since finding any bullets for the new 6CM barrel has been near impossible (let alone the 1000-2000 like I’d like to have on hand to go with a new barrel), I keep looking at just getting another barrel spun up in 22CM (saving the 6CM for down the road) because I can find the 80+ grain .224 bullets in large quantities all day all over the place...

Seems switching to 22CM from 6CM, all I’d need is a bushing or two and a new seating stem and I’d be in business.

Thing is, worth bothering with 22CM or should I just try to be patient until I hopefully score some more DTAC’s (or any good .243 bullets really)?

I shoot out to 1250 yards regularly, and practice mostly around 500-600 yards, so I’m a little concerned I won’t see decent enough impacts on plates to discern where I’m hitting (middle vs edges) or splash once I start getting out there..? Also kind of thinking if 22CM was really “the shit” half the field would already be running it (so maybe there’s something I’m missing)..?

On paper, 22CM looks great, but doesn’t seem like many prs/nrl shooters are adopting it?

IDK?

 

[Newbie2020]

I’ve got some 95 90 and 85 gr 6mm bullets which kinda defeats the value/purpose of a Creedmoor but to your point they were cheap and available.

Im hoping they’re ok on less windy days out to 600. Is that stupid of me?

 

[CK1.0]

I’ve got some 95 90 and 85 gr 6mm bullets which kinda defeats the value/purpose of a Creedmoor but to your point they were cheap and available.

Im hoping they’re ok on less windy days out to 600. Is that stupid of me?

IDK, I was looking at the dope with the heavier .224’s and it’s nearly the same as I’m used to out to a 1000 with the 6... looks really good on paper...

I’ve never shot a .243/6 with less than a 105gr so IDK what you’ll get in a 6 with those lighter bullets...

 

[spife7980]

My 22 creed I run 85 rdfs at 3400.
If I’m going to drop it down below 3200 to meet the rules I’ll just stick to the 6 and keep the mass and bc.

 

[Newbie2020]

Im building a 223remAI which isn’t quite as hot but I’m hoping to shoot some of the 80s or 85.5s

 

[CK1.0]

My 22 creed I run 85 rdfs at 3400.
If I’m going to drop it down below 3200 to meet the rules I’ll just stick to the 6 and keep the mass and bc.

- “mass and bc”... think you just hit it on the head...

It’s crazy how close the dope is on a 22CM 88gr @ 3100fps vs 6CM 115gr @ 2900fps though. ...just not sure I want to bet ~1000 bucks to find out if it’s legit...

 

[n00g7]

I’ve restocked 10k 105 Hybrids from being down to a box left in December. They’re obtainable, just takes some effort.

I’m putting together a 22CM for hunting and will barrel swap to 25CM for NRL Hunter/also hunting. Picked up 1200 or 1400 85.5grs as that’s about all I expect the barrel to last. Hopefully get a bit more out of it... but yeah, I think it just depends on your willingness to trade bullet availability and bullet cost (22 ELDs are cheap) for barrel life — and that you may want to move to a slower powder than H4350.

22BR or BRA around 2900-3000fps though with an 85.5gr or 88gr, I’d mess with that (but I’m already set up for BRA) for PRS given the situation, but probably not 22 Creed.

 

[Ledzep]

Some thoughts...

- I think the creedmoor case is great for 6.5mm, and is already a little too much volume for a 6mm but not horrible. I think it's too much for a .224, though. The powder column vs. twist rate vs. bullet weight vs. bore diameter means even less barrel life, likely going to spin bullets over 300,000RPM, and as that accelerated bore erosion happens, you're going to have an accelerated chance of blowing up bullets. I'd look at .22 BR/BRA/BRX/Dasher. Barrel life will be better, and you'll still get competitive velocity while being a little 'nicer' to the system. Personally, I'd tame it down, buy new brass, dies, and even a couple BR mags if I was going to try .22 cal stuff. I wouldn't go faster than 1:7.5 for twist.

- Every analysis I've done comparing trajectory, wind deflection, and recoil says that a .22 should be badass for PRS/NRL. However, what spreadsheets can't show me is the splash effect on target. I know a few guys that run various .224's and love them, but at 6mm with 105-115gr bullets I believe there is already a chance to lose points on impacts that aren't spotted. There are often target flashers on long ball targets, but they also often fail throughout a day's course of fire. That doesn't mean you won't see ANY of them, but it does open up some more chance for the impacts to be missed visually. As with anything there are tradeoffs on a sliding scale, and moving one slider closer to the extreme end is going to affect other things.

I think it's a viable approach. I haven't tried it myself but I've been tempted. Just understand you're faced with a few detractors;
- slightly harder to spot hits/misses
- less barrel life for the same powder column
- fast velocity + fast twist = bullet blow up potential

But you get less recoil and very similar, if not better trajectories and wind deflections.

 

[CK1.0]

Well, so far, all good points, starting to think it might just be one of those things where I'll have to find out for myself... seems like just as I wondered, splash/impacts will be the biggest deciding factor...

I'd love to hear from anyone who's run a 22CM in a match against all the 6CM/6Dasher/6GT/6BR/6BRA's etc..?

I guess for now I'll just continue to check Discord like an obsessed person, and hopefully I'll get lucky with some .243 bullets (I probably need to get my kid to hook me up with a custom bot so I can compete) ;-)

...actually that reminds me, was planning on handing down my current rig to my 11 y/o anyways, so suppose I can start collecting the few things I'd need for loading 22CM and maybe that'll just be "his" first barrel, I mean he's smaller, that's more than enough rational/justification for a softer-shooting cartridge (like any firearms-related purchase requires justification)...

 

[Matt_3479]

I shot a practice day/mini match at a range last season and one of the guys there was shooting the 22 creed. Now he was a much better shooter then I am and had been shooting it for a while so he was comfortable with it. I’d I recall he was shooting the 88gr bullets.

My shooting partner was shooting a 6.5 creed with 140gr eldm at 2950fps, I was shooting a 6 creed with 105’s at 3130 fps, and he had the 22 creed. At 1100 yards he was able to shoot and stay on target better then we were, but was definitely harder to see a miss. Now he was able to watch trace to help but the splash was a lot less then the 6.5 and 6. That said, the particular area we were shooting even my 6 was incredibly hard to spot a miss.

 

[CK1.0]

I shot a practice day/mini match at a range last season and one of the guys there was shooting the 22 creed. Now he was a much better shooter then I am and had been shooting it for a while so he was comfortable with it. I’d I recall he was shooting the 88gr bullets.

My shooting partner was shooting a 6.5 creed with 140gr eldm at 2950fps, I was shooting a 6 creed with 105’s at 3130 fps, and he had the 22 creed. At 1100 yards he was able to shoot and stay on target better then we were, but was definitely harder to see a miss. Now he was able to watch trace to help but the splash was a lot less then the 6.5 and 6. That said, the particular area we were shooting even my 6 was incredibly hard to spot a miss.

Cool, thanks for the info.

See, that makes me think it could be pretty cool... I kind of feel like the numbers look so good, and then you get basically no recoil (not like 6CM in a 22lb rifle is rough), and bullets are cheaper (and available), seems almost like a no-brainer so I'm still wondering why it's not more popular? I mean most of the serious-ish match shooters have flocked to the Dasher over the last few years, and then more recently to the 6GT, mostly in the pursuit of less recoil...

Need to add, I'm totally looking at 22CM as "only" being run up in the ~3100fps area... so I'm not too concerned about barrel-life, there's not much out there, but seems run "slow gear" the 22CM is about the same as 6CM how I'm running it: I can bet on ~1500rds, long-shot maybe 1800/2000 if I'm super lucky... which is fine IMO.
From what I've found, most of the info out there currently is from guys running it ~3500fps or faster, as a coyote slaying machine, that's not me.

 

[CK1.0]

Fuck it: ordered 2K 88gr ELD-M's, 26" 5R 1:7 22CM, .222" mandrel, .250 bushing, and back ordered a .224 75-90gr ELD-M/A-Tip stem.

Load will be: 88gr ELD-M, ~41gr(?) StaBall, Federal 210, I'll neck down fired Hornady 6CM, any new brass I buy for it will be Lapua 22-250.

I'll keep the fresh 6CM barrel I have on the shelf, and when my current barrel dies, I'll give it a go...

(to be continued...)

 

[Matt_3479]

Fuck it: ordered 2K 88gr ELD-M's, 26" 5R 1:7 22CM, .222" mandrel, .250 bushing, and back ordered a .224 75-90gr ELD-M/A-Tip stem.

Load will be: 88gr ELD-M, ~41gr(?) StaBall, Federal 210, I'll neck down fired Hornady 6CM, any new brass I buy for it will be Lapua 22-250.

I'll keep the fresh 6CM barrel I have on the shelf, and when my current barrel dies, I'll give it a go...

(to be continued...)

Hahaha that’s awesome. Let us know. I think the only reason it isn’t more popular is just barrel life. Hard to get eveeything. Low recoil, high bc, fast in 22 cal equals low barrel life. The 6.5 is high bc, slower, and good barrel life but higher recoil. The 6 is the happy middle ground. Not the best barrel life but doable, low enough recoil, and still good bc and speed.

Looking forward to your results. Was going spin up a 22 creed myself but ended up going with a 20 tac build. Once my 6 creed is shot out I might switch over to a 22 dasher,
22 gt area to try and a 6bra to the line up as well.

 

[CK1.0]

Hahaha that’s awesome. Let us know. I think the only reason it isn’t more popular is just barrel life. Hard to get eveeything. Low recoil, high bc, fast in 22 cal equals low barrel life. The 6.5 is high bc, slower, and good barrel life but higher recoil. The 6 is the happy middle ground. Not the best barrel life but doable, low enough recoil, and still good bc and speed.

Looking forward to your results. Was going spin up a 22 creed myself but ended up going with a 20 tac build. Once my 6 creed is shot out I might switch over to a 22 dasher,
22 gt area to try and a 6bra to the line up as well.

Awesome. I've been looking at it for a bit and just decided it sounds too fun not to try... and since I already shoot 6CM, it's about as easy as trying a wildcat will probably ever get (even though I've read some stuff that suggests it may not be a wildcat much longer?).

I kind of need to forget about it for now though, because I've been drinking the longer freebore, long bullet-jump ,and lazy-middle-of-the-rpm's speed kool-aid... and at ~700rds into it, my 6CM barrel is hammering and the throat erosion is going way slower than I'm used to... I think I might be getting 2000+ rounds out of this barrel, and will be stuck trying to hunt down more DTAC's for it whether I like it or not

 

[Matt_3479]

Awesome. I've been looking at it for a bit and just decided it sounds too fun not to try... and since I already shoot 6CM, it's about as easy as trying a wildcat will probably ever get (even though I've read some stuff that suggests it may not be a wildcat much longer?).

I kind of need to forget about it for now though, because I've been drinking the longer freebore, long bullet-jump ,and lazy-middle-of-the-rpm's speed kool-aid... and at ~700rds into it, my 6CM barrel is hammering and the throat erosion is going way slower than I'm used to... I think I might be getting 2000+ rounds out of this barrel, and will be stuck trying to hunt down more DTAC's for it whether I like it or not

Well I’ll be keeping an eye out for your thoughts between the two for sure!!

My creed barrel is right around 700 ish rounds as well and I’m also thinking it might hit around 1700-2000 rounds as I’ve experienced extremely minimal throat erosion. I put together a 25 creed and it’s my current favourite, but a 22 with minimal recoil would be sweet

 

[n00g7]

Fuck it: ordered 2K 88gr ELD-M's, 26" 5R 1:7 22CM, .222" mandrel, .250 bushing, and back ordered a .224 75-90gr ELD-M/A-Tip stem.

Load will be: 88gr ELD-M, ~41gr(?) StaBall, Federal 210, I'll neck down fired Hornady 6CM, any new brass I buy for it will be Lapua 22-250.

I'll keep the fresh 6CM barrel I have on the shelf, and when my current barrel dies, I'll give it a go...

(to be continued...)

Going 22” myself, 7.5tw, will be using my SAC seater and RL26 with alpha or Peterson as soon as brass is available again. Have everything else.

 

[CK1.0]

Going 22” myself, 7.5tw, will be using my SAC seater and RL26 with alpha or Peterson as soon as brass is available again. Have everything else.

Yeah, weird thing is, half the reason I decided to look hard at the 22CM was brass!

I've got 50 pieces of virgin Hornady 6CM I've been keeping aside, sitting on, and somehow after a month+ or more of looking everywhere for it and even losing a few gun-auction-site gouge-matches, I somehow found another 100pcs that'll be on the way...

But, the rest of my brass has been worked, I've been being the brass-miser but I finally need to get at least another 150pcs going. I retired a batch that had 11+ firings and still was looking good (rapidly growing number of suspect primer pockets though), and have pressed a shit-show batch of 100 into service as practice-only stuff (consisting of 5x fired brass that I fucked up learning to spend more than $25 on a trimming tool and 30% mixed ex-22-250 cases)...

Anyways, I was/am getting sick of hunting down brass (any components really). I know we all are.

But, no joke, as of yesterday there was all kinds of Lapua 22-250 out there in the interwebs on lots of the usual gun supply sites, so I started thinking I'd be a smarty-pants and grab some to make into 6CM, and then that led to being reminded I'm sick of looking for 6mm bullets, yada yada yada, etc... BTW, don't bother, it's gone almost everywhere today

I managed to order 200pcs from a place I hate ordering shit from, but today is not yesterday...

 

[n00g7]

I have a ton of 6Creed SRP Lapua, but want to use LR mags for the slower powders. Hoping to find some OCD alpha when it comes available but haven’t seen any LRP Peterson pop up either.

 

[b6graham]

i have a shitload of 6XC brass and built a 22LRV from WTO. 37.6gr H4350 puts a 95SMK at 3140 with a few hundred FPS to go. you wanna talk flat

but...doesnt mean it's the best.

and 88eldm BLOW UP

 

[CK1.0]

I have a ton of 6Creed SRP Lapua, but want to use LR mags for the slower powders. Hoping to find some OCD alpha when it comes available but haven’t seen any LRP Peterson pop up either.

Yeah, it could be a minute for the Alpha and/or Peterson stuff with demand for everything sky high. I'd imagine the more "exotic" the cartridge, the longer it might be...

I'm fine with fire-forming the Lapua 22-250, it's just: mandrel, load, shoot, and from what I've read, sounds like the fire-forming loads are fairly accurate (accurate enough for decent practice behind the gun). Besides, I don't really start load development until after 200rds anyways... It'll just end up a little short, but not a problem, especially with ELD-M's (long bering surface) and I'm not even going to bother starting my jump testing closer than .040" off jam, so it's not like the bullets will be hanging out of the case.

i have a shitload of 6XC brass and built a 22LRV from WTO. 37.6gr H4350 puts a 95SMK at 3140 with a few hundred FPS to go. you wanna talk flat

but...doesnt mean it's the best.

and 88eldm BLOW UP

I've been reading about the whole "bullet blow-up thing", sounds shitty and kind of neat at the same time bahahahaha. I'm not too worried though. I'm not going to be running it like a hot rod at all. Seems lots of guys see it as a way to go fast and get super flat like a 22-250, but also reach out further too, and that's cool.

But, I'm coming at it from another point of view. I'm just looking at 22CM more like: .224 is 5.56mm, so really only a .44mm difference from 6CM, so 22CM is actually closer in size to the 6CM than 6CM is to 6.5CM (.5mm)... I'm not looking for that 200-300+fps way up ~3500fps beyond what the 6CM is capable of (~3200fps), I just want ~200fps beyond where I like running my 6CM these days (~2900fps). Should be stupid soft shooting and the dope should line up pretty well with what I'm already used to... that's my plan anyway.

 

[Potsy]

I have a .22BR and love it. Couldn’t make up my mind between .223/.223AI or .22 Creed so I split the difference.
For long range steel matches, I’ve been running 95 SMK’s and like them.
I’ve also shot the 88’s, they shoot well and are cheaper than 95’s. I’m not gonna say I’ve had 88’s blow up, I will say I’ve had a couple of unexplained misses. Fwiw, I’m running 7 twist 24”, 88’s at 3000 and 95’s at 2850, both w/RL16.
If I had a Creed, for matches I’d look for a low node at 3000+ with 95’s and H-1000 (supposed to be “cooler”) out of a 26” tube. Coyote load would be 75 eldm’s at light speed.
Just my .02......

 

[Mrindecisive]

Reloading Equipment - WTS: 1500 Berger 105 Hybrids

Wanting to sell 3 unopened 500 count (1500 total) Berger 105 Hybrids. 2 boxes of the same lot (see picture) 3 x 500 boxes total 285.00 per box shipped OR 825.00 for all

www.snipershide.com

Hurry up

 

[CK1.0]

Well, after reading everything I could find on 22CM I'm still a little unsure of what I want my barrel specs to be? I'd ordered a 26" 1:7 twist 5R MTU, but my gunsmith got at me today and said he doesn't have an 1:7 MTU and it could be a while, which is probably fine because I'm still dicking around trying to decide if I'm all-in on a 1:7t with the ELD-M 88's..?

As far as the bullets blowing up craziness, from what I've gleaned, it seems to be caused by: (a) high torque from RPM's above 300k, (b) 4/6 square rifling, (c) trying to go too fast, or (d) some or all of the above. Bullet/barrel spec/speed all have to be playing nice-nice together or else it's bullet poppin' time (that's probably my answer as to why 22CM isn't more popular in PRS/NRL).

Deciding on the "right" twist for the 22CM is pretty tricky too, what will be best with my bullet is proving to be a challenge to nail down because the info concerning that stuff all over the place... It appears the 22CM is bipolar and has a double life, so sifting through all the info out there is annoying as fuck because all the varminter data overlaps and is mixed with the long range precision data. It's all as clear as mud. When run like a super-fast varmint death ray it acts one way, as a PRS0style gun under 3200fps is totally different ballgame.

The other thing is freebore? 88gr ELD-M's are an unknown quantity to me, but I've shot thousands of ELD-M 108's before switching to DTAC's, and if the 88's are anything like the 108's, I won't even bother testing bullet-jump any closer than 0.040" off jam (honestly might be better off starting out at 0.080" off). I like longer freebore, the boring SAAMI spec .183fb in 6CM is great as far as I'm concerned, but longer might be even better? IDK...

 

[mcfred]

You migt consider Bartlein's 400MODBB barrel material to extend the barrel life. While you're at it, I'd spec a slightly slower twist and maybe a looser .219" bore if you want to push the heavies to 3200. While you're waiting, the prices might come down on your components. I wouldn't worry about the freebore, it'll grow fast enough in regular stainless.

At 55¢ apiece the guy with the Bergers posted above can keep them.

 

[Boatninja]

I’ve been running a 6CM for a while, favoring heavy and “slow” loads running it kind of more like a big Dasher (115DTAC’s at ~2900fps)...

I dig it, no problems at all with it really, except I’m kind of getting sick of looking for bullets everyday to no avail... any decent 105+ grain .243 bullets are scarce. When they do show up, it’s only a box of 100 here and there which sucks.

I’ve got enough components to burn up my current barrel (with about 800-1000 rounds left on it depending on how lucky I am), and already have another identical brand new 6CM barrel ready to go (and the primers and powder to toast it), I just still have no bullets for it yet...

Since finding any bullets for the new 6CM barrel has been near impossible (let alone the 1000-2000 like I’d like to have on hand to go with a new barrel), I keep looking at just getting another barrel spun up in 22CM (saving the 6CM for down the road) because I can find the 80+ grain .224 bullets in large quantities all day all over the place...

Seems switching to 22CM from 6CM, all I’d need is a bushing or two and a new seating stem and I’d be in business.

Thing is, worth bothering with 22CM or should I just try to be patient until I hopefully score some more DTAC’s (or any good .243 bullets really)?

I shoot out to 1250 yards regularly, and practice mostly around 500-600 yards, so I’m a little concerned I won’t see decent enough impacts on plates to discern where I’m hitting (middle vs edges) or splash once I start getting out there..? Also kind of thinking if 22CM was really “the shit” half the field would already be running it (so maybe there’s something I’m missing)..?

On paper, 22CM looks great, but doesn’t seem like many prs/nrl shooters are adopting it?

IDK?

From an RO point of view at medium to long range, although the bullet weights aren't much different the splash and sound report are much less from the .224. I have both and love shooting the 22 creed at distance, but in a competition I would go 6mm.

 

[CK1.0]

From an RO point of view at medium to long range, although the bullet weights aren't much different the splash and sound report are much less from the .224. I have both and love shooting the 22 creed at distance, but in a competition I would go 6mm.

Thanks, coming from an RO I'm starting to think that's something I maybe needed to consider more before jumping in, as it's one of those things that isn't really a spec (so I kind of disregarded it), but I've heard it enough now to where I'm sure it matters. I don't care so much about comps, but I do think I might miss the splash and knowing right away whether I had an impact or not.

I honestly think I'm starting to get cold feet now because of the unforeseen issues I'm running into with this...

I'm going to sleep on it, but I'm starting to really feel like me getting a 2CM going is just not meant to be. I might just stick with 6CM and resign myself to looking for bullets every fucking day

Sucks, but between the barrel-twist vs bullet compatibility conundrum, and then the velocity/BC sacrifices that need to be made in order to avoid bullets blowing up, 22CM is turning out to be too good to be true. IDK.

 

[CK1.0]

Decided to abort the 22CM mission.

It's just, well, too much drama... becoming a better shooter is my quest, not joining Mythbusters. After getting deep in the weeds, 22CM just isn't nearly as easy peasy as I had thought (not at all really).

I feel like I did enough homework on it to have developed a pretty good plan on how to make it work, but I don't feel confident enough to bet $1000+ and who knows how long dicking around with it in order to see if my theory is correct.

There's just not a ton of info out there from PRS/NRL-type shooters, and what is out there is all over the place with no one using/loading the same shit and it's just generally sketchy AF because there's no general consensus about anything really. I've found quotes from like ~2-3 guys saying it's the shit, but a dozen or more guys saying it was a waste of time and money. The varmint executioner dudes love it though.

My take is this explains why most PRS/NRL-types looking for something with an edge as far as less recoil than a 6CM would rather just deal with the hassle of going to a Dasher/BR/GT/etc instead of just swapping a bushing and stem. I mean, with the 6BR-variants the hassle is new dies and brass that's kind of a PITA as it's tough to form or find, and then maybe dealing with spacer kits... but putting together a good load is a piece of cake. The 22CM seems to be the complete opposite... super easy to swap over to, but as far as finding a load: good fucking luck.

I wasn't looking to switch due to recoil, just wanted easier to find bullets, but that's not nearly enough to make it worth it IMO.

Bummer. Lessen learned.

On the bright side: I know a guy who knows a guy who might sell me a bunch more DTAC's, and found a place that let me backorder a couple thousand Nosler RDF 115's in case the DTAC supply remains dried up (yes, I'm aware of the other RDF's reputation, but guys seem to like the 115 version and the numbers are real close to the DTAC's).

 

[CK1.0]

6mm creed is a beast, load heavies with rl23, rl26 or H1000 and run the 2900-3000 fps area whichever powder node presents itself. These will be lower pressure loadings and cooler burn temps(esp H1000) and barrel life/throat erosion should be noticeably better.

That's exactly what I've been up to, and I'm a true believer. DTAC's @ ~2900fps, a longish jump ~.100-.110" off jam and a longish .183" freebore = fucking awesome. I'll be surprised if I only get 2000rds out of my current barrel (when ~1500rds being smoked in 6CM is/was accepted as gospel). I just have to resist the urge to pull it because of all the old noise until it honestly stops shooting. I pulled my last one at 1800 and it was still shooting .5" at 100 and sub-moa at 1000, I just wanted a heavier barrel profile and had accepted that I must've just been lucky and on borrowed time... I bet I could spin the old one back on and it'd go another 200rds or more.

In fact, I have a buddy who's new to this who might need a barrel, I think I'll give it to him and see how much longer it shoots... (thanks for the idea, I can help my bro and maybe learn something )

I'm even going to experiment with getting an even longer freebore if I continue shooting 6CM (somewhere in the .200-.250" off jam range).