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22Lr. group question

C

caustic

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Minuteman
Nov 27, 2009
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MB,Canada
#1
Hey there was a thread on here that compared 22LR group size at various ranges to I think it was 308 can someone post the link if they know what I'm talking about , I tried the search ...But you know...

edit (11 mar 10): what I'm looking for is what is considered a tight group size at 100 and 200 yrds with 22lr.

thanks
 
#2
Re: 22 group question

Caustic,

I do not have the link but it is my understanding that the 22lr at 200 yds will act like the .308 at 400 yds. So MOA comparison would approximately 4" at 200 yds.

Try reading some of the rimfire competition threads on here it might have been in one of those as I distinctly remember them talking about ringing a 5" plate at 200.

J
 
#3
Re: 22 group question

Yeah you should definitey check out the learnings from comps section. We don't really shoot for group size. We shoot 25 round gong and target comps. There are also short range comps, but I haven't done one. For targets we use NRA small bore 100 yard, and 200 yard targets. Gongs are...

100 - 2.5" disk (Since I shoot a .17 HMR I use 2")
200 - 5" disk
250 - 8" disk
300 - 10" disk

It seems like the average for the guys using 22LR's at the 25 round 100 yard disk shoot anywhere from 17 to 25. You should join us. It's a fun time and you really get to learn about your rifle.
smile.gif
 
#5
Re: 22 group question

I find that group size with my .22 is consistant with my .308 if I use a scaling factor of four on the yardage.
Example: .22 group size at 50 yards is similar to .308 group size at (4)*50= 200 yards
YMMV
 
#8
Re: 22 group question

I am averaging .85 MOA at 100 for 5-shot groups, which comes out to .9". The sizes range from 1/2" to 1.5"+.

I am not keeping good records on 200 yard groupings. With all ammo, I am averaging under 2 MOA for 5-shot groups: about 1.85, which translates to 3.9". Groups have ranged from 1 3/4" all the way to 7" or 8". You get punished severely for bad wind reads with a 22LR at 200 yards. A lot of those groups are smaller than what most people expect because they were fired in rapid succession when the wind conditions were similar. If I were to put a minute between each shot, I don't think I could obtain the smaller group sizes except in a dead calm. Those numbers just tell you what the gun is capable of at 200 yards. The rest is the shooter.
 
#10
Re: 22 group question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tansinator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shiraz, are you sure about this post:

a moa is an angle.

converted to inches

1 inch at 100 yards
4 inches at 200 yards
9 inches at 300 yards

Doesn't look right! </div></div>

origional

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shiraz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not sure what you are asking but,

1moa at 100 yards
2moa at 200 yards
3moa at 300 yards

is good shooting
(nobody is shooting sub moa at 200 yards) </div></div>

I think so
1.047 rounded to 1 inch(so, 1moa@100Y=1 inch, 1moa@200Y=2 inches, 1moa@300Y=3 inches)
1moa x 1 inch at 100= 1inch
2moa x 2 inches at 200 = 4 inches
3moa x 3 inches at 300 = 9 inches

Carters average at 200Y is about 4 inches <span style="text-decoration: line-through">[so sub moa] </span>and Buffy Busters avg. at 300Y was 8 or 9 inches <span style="text-decoration: line-through">[again sub moa].</span> The above is good shooting.
 
#12
Re: 22 group question

Shiraz, my shooting at 200 yards is not sub-MOA, it is sub 2 MOA. My shooting at 100 yards is sub-MOA. But based on my experience, the numbers are about right, though I have no data for 300 yards. I have been told that my results at 200 are too good to be true and after the last couple of months, I am starting to believe that they might have been.

Here is another thing to look at:
22LR at:
50 yards - 25% wind reading, 25% fundamentals
100 yards - 50% wind reading, 50% fundamentals
200yards - 75% wind reading, 25% fundamentals

When I say fundamentals, I am talking about NPA, breathing trigger control, etc. At 200 yards, you can truly blow the fundamentals and make shots on wind reading alone. I have made poorly executed shots fall right in the X-ring only because I held over just right and I have had perfectly executed shots blow off several inches because of a poor wind read.

Some days, I am just at one with the wind, and I will beholding off all over the target and have the wind kick that bullet right back where it needs to be. And some days, I am doing everything right... but the wind trumps me. That is frustrating. But really, there is nothing better than shooting a tricky wind and nailing it time after time. The targets that I am most proud of aren't necessarily the ones with the highest scores. Of course, the great scores and small groups are the ones I post on the Internets. :)
 
#13
Re: 22 group question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shiraz, my shooting at 200 yards is not sub-MOA, it is sub 2 MOA. My shooting at 100 yards is sub-MOA. :) </div></div>

You are right. I meant better than a very high standard, not sub moa shooting.


anyone hear of a sub 2 inch 5 shot group at 200 yards?
 
#15
Re: 22 group question

if carter can't do it with a .22, well i have to believe it probably can't be done.

that 40x he shoots and the pictures he posts are about as close as i think anybody is going to get.

i wish i can hit as well as carter misses!

sorry about my input earlier in the thread i misunderstood the op's question and thought it had to do with a drop comparison.

where has joe been anyway?
 
#17
Re: 22 group question

Thanks for the kind words, TP.

I shot a couple of groups today for this thread. First of all, the conditions I shot in today were extremely favorable. The temps were in the mid 70's, which is just what my gun / ammo combo likes and the wind, while not non-existent, was a steady 5 mph headwind... actually just off at 10 or 11 o'clock. A pretty easy wind to shoot.

These 5-shot groups were shot at 215 yards, one of them measured out at 2 3/8", the other at 2 3/16". These were the only 5-shot groups I shot today. In hindsight, I should have shot a whole lot more for bragging rights...

IMG00031.jpg

IMG00032.jpg


Mind you, these are in excellent shooting conditions. Most days, these types of groups simply are not obtainable. And also note that while one of the groups was centered very well, the other was not. So if you were to combine those to make a 10-shot group, the size would be appreciably larger. Still... those are good groups. Honestly, anything under 3 1/2" @ 200 is pretty damned good.
 
#20
Re: 22 group question

Carter, you may have misunderstood my intent...
Groups were indeed fabulous.
I am confident you would shoot excellent scores anywhere, any weather.
I have been buried at work and school and after submitting my term paper saw you post about being out shooting in nice warm weather. Good thing it was crappy and cold here, or I wouldn't have finished my report.
It is supposed to get warm here Wed & Thurs. may have to take a sick day... I feel a bad case of anal-glaucoma coming on!
 
#21
Re: 22 group question

I gotcha. I thought you were saying it is too cold to shoot. And my point is that these postal contests are inherently unfair because you have folks shooting in the driving snow compared to me shooting in 50 degree weather. The solution? Go to Texas!
 
#22
Re: 22 group question

You may be right about unfair for any given month, but I know you have had to shoot in some very hot weather & high winds.

I was very fortunate to find time to shoot the Jan & Feb targets in the sun. The cold is tolerable if you can have a little sun!

I think I will splurge and shoot some spendy ammo at the 200 yd target this month. The affordable stuff is hanging in there for 100 yards, but at 200 the velocity variations really start to show up with verticle stringing.
 
#23
Re: 22 group question

I'm eager to try may hand at the 200yr range soon, i can only hope to have my groups close to what Carter has. nice one!

my groups a 100yr are nothing to write home about, still looking for the right ammo, but I'm most likely going to at least try the 200yr this week, just to get a feel for it and see what I can do.


 
#25
Re: 22 group question

I shoot FV200 on a 200yd target with a 2" 5 ring, and a 1" V ring. In our informal club comps, ten rounds inside the 5 ring are exceedingly rare.

I am looking to try out rimfire targets sized at 50%, and have arbitrarily decided to start testing at 80yd. That's a 5 ring the size of a quarter, and a V ring the size of a dime.

According to my calcs, this distance corresponds to the same time of flight as my centerfire rounds at 200yd

Testing will begin once the weather up here in Central NY improves. It's all arbitrary, but one has to start somewhere.

If it's too easy, the targets will move further out; if too hard, they'll get moved inward.

Greg
 
#27
Re: 22 group question

Any/all, we've seen everything from .222 to .338LM. Same/same for firearms types, from full blown BR guns to M4 carbines.

6BR's and 6BRXs seem to be doing the best as of the end of last season. Our next event is tentatively scheduled for Apr 3. I'm looking to resurrect a Rem 700 BDL Varmint .222 that I havent't shot seriously in a couple of decades.

We allow brakes by unanimous agreement. So far, nobody's objected, and if someone's uneasy about it, I volunteer to shoot alongside the brake, and the uneasy shooter gets the option of firing from the other end of the line. I'm a lousy shot anyway, so there's no real loss...

While these are unofficial/club events with no prizes or even certificates, nobody's sandbagging.

The target looks easy when held in the hand, but when we get it out to 200, it's actually rather a bit of a challenge. Keeps the folks coming back, it does...

2 events per month, as long as the snow isn't driving us off the range. 40 rounds plus unlimited sighters, ten rounds for score per target. COF is two 20rd stages, 1/2hr per stage. We like to let the rifles cool down some between stages.

All targets are posted at the same time, and we have separate sighter bulls displayed alongside. Guns and targets follow typical F Class rules, except where we use an origial design 5/V target style as opposed to a 10/X style. We print our own using a conventional computer laser printer on 8 1/2" x 14" plain paper, two 6" scoring bulls per sheet.

A perfect score is a 200-40V; and nobody's done one of them yet. $10 donation for the first set of targets. Stick around after and shoot some more of them for free.

The main point is we're not out to beat anybody but ourselves, and the emphasis is on bringing everyone along to improved performance. Several of us are NRA certified instructors, and we all do everything we can to help each other out.

I came back North from Orlando early this year. These events were part of the reasons.

Greg
 
#28
Re: 22 group question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg: What types of rifles and ammo where used to get 10 shots in 2" at 200? </div></div>

I used my .17 HMR with Winchester V-Max 17 gr.

This is my older PB. I can't seem to find my new one in photobucket.

Target2_200.jpg
 
#31
Re: 22 group question

I have tried to shoot .22 at 200. It was so ugly that I moved back to 100. My scope ran out of elevation so I was using a point on the crosshair near the bottom of the reticle.
 
#32
Re: 22 group question

What 22 ammo are you guys using?

I currently have the same optic issue. I need to hold on top of the bottom post at 200yrds at max mag. I can keep inside a 6" round plate consistantly with Rem blue box target (40gr, 1100fps) in relatively mild, but not optimal conditions. That's with spanning other ranges, no feedback other then audible, and a poor optic hold-over so I consider it decent in expectation and consistancy/repeatability.

A mere extra 25 yards changes the game. I consider 200yrds max for that ammo in my rifle. It meets my price vs. performance catagory and use it exclusively for doing fast roundy-rounds on steel plates and most 22 bolt shooting.

At some range and average conditions, I think that added velocity should overcome the typical difference in 22 ammo precision. I'd guess around 200yards. "Match" small bore pills generally like to run slower. My bolt 22 has a fussy chamber and I have not been able to experiment with any of the fast 22 cartriges. Has that been your experience?
 
#33
Re: 22 group question

You might think about switching out your optics to one with more internal adjustment, mil-dots, or get a slopped base/Burris Signature Zee rings


Tasco Target Varmint series
Centerpoint
both work good and are under $100
 
#34
Re: 22 group question

My scopes are the Tasco Varmint/Target 6-24x42 MilDot, and appear to have 75+ MOA of adjustment.

I supplement this by shimming the base so the 50ft zero is just a few MOA above where the adjustment bottoms out. I can definitely reach 200 and just barely reach 250 with a direct POA.

Std velocity stuff is only going a little over 300fps by the time it gets out that far; so for practical reasons I don't shoot so way far out as much anymore. I pretty much try to stay within 100yd these days; the outcomes are more consistent.

Greg
 
#35
Re: 22 group question

With muzzle velocity at or near 1060 fps, 40 grain rn bullet I come up with a little over 700 fps at 300 yards...

I don't think my spreadsheet is off by 400 fps, as my come up and windage calcs are right on at 200 yards...

Even discounting my high desert elevation I can't come up with 300 fps.
 
#36
Re: 22 group question

I was using Pejsa, .130BC, 1000ft ASL, 1070fps, and 250yd to come up with 326fps. For this calc, zero was given as 20yd, and elev comes out to 76+MOA.
 
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