I will. I rather enjoy such things. Its hard to know where to start and stop with the details. I get obsessed with details some day lol.
- Thread starter Raufoss
- Start date
You want things handed to you. People have tested and responded with their findings, myself included. Would you like to know why I tested it? Because I wanted to know. I put in the time, effort and money. You are welcome to do the same if you don’t see things tested how you would like the test run. I’m not defensive at all. I just like to see people take initiative and move things forward. Not wait for someone else to do it for them.
If you’d like to setup and pay for my slow and fast twist barres to get tested back to back at Lapua or eley, I would send them. But, I also will say, that is also not a direct comparison because it’s not the same barrel. Two slow twist barrels don’t shoot the same, so why would two battle with different twists. If you’re looking for statistical significance, you’re going to have to be willing to buy even more barrels that me and be willing to spend a ton on ammo and tunnel time. I’d like to see your findings added to mine and others though. That way he can build a sample size to better please people unwilling to believe the results from others
I did none of my testing to see which shot the best. Fast or slow. Thats to barrel/ ammo/ setup dependent.
My only interest was how groups degrade over distance.
Weeell not only but..... for now.
My only interest was how groups degrade over distance.
Weeell not only but..... for now.
I measured a lot of things. I won’t be using 1-16 anymore for what I do
Geno, your response is a bit of an over-reaction, like you're protecting special turf from transgression.
Six days ago I asked two simple questions, neither of which were meant to offend or trespass:
Has there been any chronograph data from the testing referred to published comparing standard and fast twist barrels?
Has there been any reliable target data such as target results published in this forum or anywhere else comparing standard and fast twist barrels?
I was thinking that if the information is out there, perhaps someone would be so kind as to offer directions to it. Other shooters may also be interested in how standard and fast twist barrels compare.
To the first question, you responded
That was as satisfactory as any response to the first question.
With regard to the second question, a small number of targets comparing standard and fast twist results were posted.
One shooter offered an honest "I don't know"
That's perfectly acceptable. An admission of not knowing is always preferable to unreliable information.
Clearly, there doesn't appear to be any results from comprehensive testing. If such results don't exist, that's fine. And if they do and aren't being published, that's a bit curious but fine, too.
Just finished testing a 22in 9t on my 2013 Anschutz. This gun is set up for 200yd competition only. I have two excellent barrels. one Anschutz 27iin 16t and one custom Lilja 21in 16t. Just purchased a 22in 9t Lilja. Tested this fast twist at 50,100 and 200yds with poor results. It will not shoot with either one of my 16t barrels at these ranges. Definitely does not like Eley flat nose .Shoots Round nose Lapua and RWS better but still not up to my 16t barrels
Absolutely agreed. There are other ways to compare things.
Did you find that you had wild unexplainable flyers with the 1-9?
Did you find that you had wild unexplainable flyers with the 1-9?
With my 9t, no. After 750-900ish shots down the barrel now, it's run-in and the distinct lack of flyers is impressive.
ZERO visual difference at 100 or less, it's in the 150-300m where it shines. 385m on a Kyl rack has been my current best distance. I'll take it to 500m next weekend, possibly on video too.
I should have quoted @littlesister as I know people thats tried 1-9 and got fliers. So wondered if its the same.
Any idea what swan uses for bore dimentions?
I can find out if you really want.
Not sure it really matters. I'm just the curious type and wonder if bore dimensions really matter. Some guys swear its the most important part.
Years ago I learned of an explanation why anschutz shot better than most.
Know how the barrels have a slightly larger muzzle end, and a dove tail for the front sight to attach ? The theory is that they profiled the barrels THEN rifled them. The slight increase in material would not "give" as much during button rifling, and result in a very slight choke-style muzzle diameter.
This helped preserve the barrel life, and performance of the bullets.
No idea if the rumour was true, but it does make sense and align with how they did things. The whole front sight cut was a ruse to throw off the other makers.
Know how the barrels have a slightly larger muzzle end, and a dove tail for the front sight to attach ? The theory is that they profiled the barrels THEN rifled them. The slight increase in material would not "give" as much during button rifling, and result in a very slight choke-style muzzle diameter.
This helped preserve the barrel life, and performance of the bullets.
No idea if the rumour was true, but it does make sense and align with how they did things. The whole front sight cut was a ruse to throw off the other makers.
You could rifle then profile and still have the same effect by and large.
If you machine the OD of a tube down the ID will increase. How much depends on alot of details. This is main argument against muzzle threads on a 22lr.
The whole tapper lapped barrel thing is debatable now with the tolerances our modern equipment can hold. Doesnt mean its not true just not something most of us have to worry about.
I'm more interested in main bore dimensions then taper vs no taper.
I have a 1:9 from Lilja for my 457 and I didn’t get the groups that I expected either. Was working on the zero and then getting some shots in at 100yards for groups, so I didn’t get a chance to really work it. I need to tweak the trigger and adjust the head space, based on failures to extract, so maybe that will affect things
I officially gave up on my 1:9 twist yesterday and sent it off to get rebarreled.
I run a calfee2 chamber, with ~2.5mm (100thou) of jam on SK rifle plus red box, However now run sk standard plus yellow box. Nothing but good results with 9t.
Bergara B14r receiver, SCSA mid-section chassis with MANAEL forend, and MDT rear stock, MANAEL tuner and brake, on a 22" super heavy barrel profile in stainless. Weight is 7.2kg.
Might have to go a group shoot and post results. I'm super lucky, or completely mistaken on results ? So far, I'm impressed.
Bergara B14r receiver, SCSA mid-section chassis with MANAEL forend, and MDT rear stock, MANAEL tuner and brake, on a 22" super heavy barrel profile in stainless. Weight is 7.2kg.
Might have to go a group shoot and post results. I'm super lucky, or completely mistaken on results ? So far, I'm impressed.
If you wouldn't mind, could you explain your experience? What length was your barrel? Threaded? Reading back through your posts, didn't you send it to Lapua? Thanks in advance.
24” non threaded. Sent it to lapua and the results were not good in their testing. When I first got it I won a match with it before sending it off to Lapua. When I got it back from lapua I shot a 6x5 with the ammo that tested the “best” and my worst group was better than their best at 50 yards. I have pictures of targets I can dig out if anyone is interested. I put thousands of rounds through it trying to convince myself it either shot or it didn’t. The problem was it did shoot great just not consistently because it would throw rounds out of the groups. I would start questioning myself if maybe I just suck. Once I got out with my 1:16 Vudoo and my 1:9 and shot multiple 6x5’s it was pretty clear. The 1:9 was just as accurate with the best groups but overall the most consistent thing about the groups were they were inconsistent. If having it lot tested at Lapua and shooting the same ammo which is random to my 1:16, and the 1:16 is consistently more accurate I felt like I had put enough time and money into it. I really wanted it to work. The heavier barrel was awesome compared to the MTU on my 1:16. I tried everything I knew to try switching stocks, scopes, triggers, even tracking which mags the best groups came out of. Results remained the same.
I have a EC barrel tuner that I’m going to try on the Lilja/457 9t barrel that I have. I don’t have the time or resources to lot pic ammo, so I was heading towards a tuner anyways. I think I can get into a 100y indoor range and work it up.
Thanks for taking the time to explain your experience.
No problem. With all the talk about the 1:9 I really wanted to try it for myself. I’m not saying it won’t work even though for me it did not. I still like to think with a magic lot of ammo it would have been great but if sending it to Lapua and buying what tested best doesn’t do it then I’m not sure what would have. I’ll probably pick up a Rim X for future fast twist testing because doing it with a Vudoo isn’t cheap when it comes time to rebarrel lol.
He may have worked out the variables but most people I know of have had limited success with 1-9. Even when you talk to Vudoo its in testing. I'm not a fan of picky. If 1-9 creates picky I'm out.
1-12 on the other hand there is a list of us around here with better results then 1-16.
I actually just talked to Vudoo two days ago, and two big takeaways for me were that:
a) The 1:9 barrels are extremely ammo dependent, much more so than a 1:16 twist
b) The 1:9's don't like muzzle threads
There's plenty of discussion on muzzle threading on another thread here, but for me I'm not shooting 22LR ELR and I'm shooting suppressed. The BC gains that are being reported don't make a huge difference at the ranges that are typical for me, so the ammo pickiness and issues with muzzle threads killed the interest for me.
Which is great, actually, now I don't have to wait for Vudoo and Mike Bush to get them out into the wild, I can just move on with my life and my 1:16 barrel.
a) The 1:9 barrels are extremely ammo dependent, much more so than a 1:16 twist
b) The 1:9's don't like muzzle threads
There's plenty of discussion on muzzle threading on another thread here, but for me I'm not shooting 22LR ELR and I'm shooting suppressed. The BC gains that are being reported don't make a huge difference at the ranges that are typical for me, so the ammo pickiness and issues with muzzle threads killed the interest for me.
Which is great, actually, now I don't have to wait for Vudoo and Mike Bush to get them out into the wild, I can just move on with my life and my 1:16 barrel.
That’s why I’m thinking a tuner may end up being mandatory with 9t barrels, - or at least that is what I’m doing since my 22x9t barrel is threaded. I do wonder if cutting back the barrel to remove the threads or leaving it long and tuning it is better. I’m leaning towards leaving it threaded and tuning it.
Saying 9t barrels don't like threaded muzzles is simply saying they need muzzle choke in order to shoot well. I would not cut my barrel unless I had it slugged to determine if it has any tight spots and at what length they are. Extremely ammo sensitive is something to think about. I owned an ammo sensitive Calfee benchrest chambered for eley 10x . I have ordered as many as 10 different lots of Eley 10x only to find it didn't like any of them. With todays ammo shortages It would be very difficult to find "that lot". As for tuners. they help eliminate vertical but I've never seen a tuner turn a bad barrel into a shooter. My 9t problems are crazy flyers. Most occurred at 5 oclock low right. A Harrel's tuner would not eliminate them.
Interesting insights. I’m not counting on the tuner making a A bad barrel into a good barrel or a good one into a great one. I also don’t think it will take bad ammo and turn it into good ammo. I think at best it is going to make it so you can match a barrel and ammo to optimize what they’re capable of.
This is one that drives me nuts. What the heck is going on when 2/3 of my dropped points are a nice little group of their own?
From a PRS rimfire comp today. 10 shots, 60 sec, gun starts in prone in position, shooter starts standing 2m behind, with magazine in hand.
Only shots within 9 ring count, no breaking or touching line, must be in. Was a ~2.1moa shot. 100m distance. I was the only one in the comp who cleaned this stage. I used SK standard plus (yellow box), and i use a 9twist swan barrel. Aussie made.
Wind was a bitch, tail wind, real switchy. Still, 45sec for 10 shots and i was done.
As yet, no.
I have also been working with the aussie distrib for cutting edge, who has the 22cal CURX pills and reloading dies. He just got a 7 twist to mess with, however in my 9t, they shoot exceptionally well.
Ive got 1200 rounds in the 9t, it was testing the CURX 2 weeks ago, was fully cleaned (for baseline) and was fine. Notjing to report. I have not shot it since the testing 2 weeks ago, didnt clean it, and shot this match, came 2nd overall. (In finale).
Remember its a match grade hand lapped barrel, not some factory tube.
I have also been working with the aussie distrib for cutting edge, who has the 22cal CURX pills and reloading dies. He just got a 7 twist to mess with, however in my 9t, they shoot exceptionally well.
Ive got 1200 rounds in the 9t, it was testing the CURX 2 weeks ago, was fully cleaned (for baseline) and was fine. Notjing to report. I have not shot it since the testing 2 weeks ago, didnt clean it, and shot this match, came 2nd overall. (In finale).
Remember its a match grade hand lapped barrel, not some factory tube.
So are you consistently seeing the faster twist is less effected by the wind?
What weight copper bullet are you shooting in the 9t?
The 32 and 42gr, and when the 7t is fitted, will try the 50gr.
42gr in 9t work real well.
Honestly not sure what happened here. Having a full custom setup, VS stock tikka t1x, bergara and c457.. not a fair comparison.
As for distance, like 200+m, yes, i can group better than multiple vudoos at my club. We were shooting groups at 300m, and multiple shooters on my rig found it easier to hit and finish a KYL rack. Not saying other guns are crap, for that day, in those conditions, we all found it "easier", was more forgiving.
I have some SK long range to try soon. Will test out to 200m, against multiple other guns, on paper. Maybe do 385m on steel too.
Any more info, Ravage?
Mike
Mike
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