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260AI or 308 Win

HillBilly_Sniper

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Nov 5, 2009
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    Mountains of SWPA
    Ok I have a trued rem 700 short action I've decided to rip the current barrel off and build another caliber I'm not bored with. I've narrowed it down to two calibers but just not sure which one to build. Id like some of your opinons as well as pros and cons on the two


    Thanks Hillbilly
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    A good analogy would be a built up 350 or a stock V-6. The list of pros and cons are huge and should be readily obvious.

    The main difference outside of the huge performance difference is the prep for the AI. Is that something you really want to do?

    Very few things will keep up with a 260AI in any department outside of pure hitting power.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    I forgot to add I want to shoot the 140 amaxs out of the 260AI and either the 155 or 168 Amax out of the 308. Don't know if that will make anyones opinon differ or not. The fire forming isn't an issue at all
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    just like Mike said if you don't mind dealing with the added AI stuff the 260AI is a much better of a choice than the 308. Less drop, better wind cheating, good brass life, great bullet choice, ect. The only down side I can think is that I can't buy 260AI or (260 for that matter) Match ammo at just about every mom and pop hunting store like I can 308. To some that is a big deal. To others they could care less about finding ready made ammo. My vote is go 260AI. As soon as I kill the barrel on my 308 it will be born again as a 260. It is just a GREAT choice
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    My perspective of most AI's is to just pick another, higher case capacity, non wildcat. Especially if you'll be out in the field with it. It sucks to be so "vested" in your brass.

    In my opinion, the only reason for you to choose 260AI is if you are SET on using your short action AND you are SET on a maximum performance 6.5mm... Or, you just want to play with an AI.

    If you do just want to play with an AI, consider the 7mm-08AI... I considered one, but took my own advice and rather than go AI, I just chose the next non-wildcat case up....the 284win.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    Jc- the ready made ammo is not a big deal to me infact I can't remember the last time I bought or shot factory ammo.

    Turbo- I did look into the 7mm-08 but I already have a 7mm and wanted to go either 6.5 or 30 caliber.

    Thanks guys for your input so far!
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillBillySniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot to add I want to shoot the 140 amaxs out of the 260AI and either the 155 or 168 Amax out of the 308. Don't know if that will make anyones opinon differ or not. The fire forming isn't an issue at all </div></div>

    Dont waste your time with the 168.
    I would go for 155 or 178's
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillBillySniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jc- the ready made ammo is not a big deal to me infact I can't remember the last time I bought or shot factory ammo.

    Turbo- I did look into the 7mm-08 but I already have a 7mm and wanted to go either 6.5 or 30 caliber.

    Thanks guys for your input so far! </div></div>

    Then it is a no contest go 260AI for the win
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    Go straight 260 and don't do the AI, the ackley not worth the time or effort. And greatly decreases barrel life.

    Ackley was done 4 or more years ago and quickly fell out of favor. Straight 260 is a better choice.

    If you want more speed try the 243 instead.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    I have used almost every AI short action caliber at one time or another....
    This is my observation.
    1. the larger the caliber the less you gain in extra velocity ( in fact my 7mm-8 and .308 The accuracy was better at lower velocity) And accuracy trumps Velocity.
    22-250 great result
    243 AI great result
    6mm AI great result
    257 Roberts AI good result
    7mm-08 AI no real different result
    308 AI no different result.

    So the 260 AI might be marginal I would then look at the 6.5 Creedmor.

    The biggest advantage the AI cases have, Is the brass does not flow as much, So you do not have to trim them as often.

    When you look at the Marginal difference in velocity in the 260 AI and the 6.5 Creedmor I would pick the creedmor. ( for one reason Case prep time......)


    As far as the .308 unless you are LE and your ammo is free, or you want to become proficient with the caliber your dept. makes you shoot.

    It is not even a discussion point. There is now advantage the .308 has over any of the 6.5 calibers
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    Hillbilly,

    I use my trip out to Nevada last August as to why I would go with the .260 or .260AI. I was shooting my 7mm-08. As far as elevation goes the 6.5 (123 Lapua @ 2950) beat me handily. According to program numbers, in a ten mile per hour wind @ 1k, my 7mm-08 took 44 moa to hit center. The 6.5 took 51 moa. When we shot at 1k (950 actual) we started with a 6mph wind from the left and that changed to a 2-3 mph wind from the right. If you didn't call the wind right it was a miss. It's really too close to call the difference in the wind between the two.

    The .308? way behind both cartridges, and that was using a 155 scenar pushed pretty fast. 2850? ish. No comparison in my mind.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    Drop and Drift is just a math problem and one over the other doesn't signal any real advantage unless you can actually exploit it. Personally.

    Accuracy and consistency will trump speed everyday of the week. If you are running the numbers to say "X" bullet will beat "Y" bullet you are looking in the wrong direction.

    Anecdotal evidence is like assholes, everyone has them -- last month I shot a 380 at the local match with a 260, and the month before I shot a 400 with a 308 the very same match. As I learn the 260 I will get better doping it, but really what advantage does it give, especially when there were 25 people in line behind my 308 score, most using some variation of the 6.5. Personally I find the 260 very unforgiving because small changes make bigger differences, which goes against the "math" people crunch on their computers. I never held off more than .2 mils in any one direction and still that was a miss in many cases.

    Knowing your rifle and load beats speed -- drop and drift are easily accounted for it you know the answer, which comes from experience. That means actually shooting it and not running the numbers.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    Lowlight- the current barrel I'm taking off is a 6x47 Lapua so the 243 is out the 6mm just isn't doing it for me in the wind.

    Ill have to look more into the straight 260 seems like halfs saying that and halfs saying AI. Guess as good as the 308 may be looks like the 6.5 is a better choice.

    Thunderbolt- can you give me some more info as to why the 6.5 creedmore would be your choice over the 260 other than case prep?

    To me case prep isn't that big of a deal yes a hassel at times but you have to take that with all the good
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillBillySniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight- the current barrel I'm taking off is a 6x47 Lapua so the 243 is out the 6mm just isn't doing it for me in the wind.

    </div></div>

    if a 243 "isn't doing it for you in the wind" you have a bigger problem.

    Can't help you at all, because no matter what you try isn't going to do it for you in the wind.

    Wind is just Dope... nothing more.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Drop and Drift is just a math problem and one over the other doesn't signal any real advantage unless you can actually exploit it. Personally.

    Accuracy and consistency will trump speed everyday of the week. If you are running the numbers to say "X" bullet will beat "Y" bullet you are looking in the wrong direction.

    Anecdotal evidence is like assholes, everyone has them -- last month I shot a 380 at the local match with a 260, and the month before I shot a 400 with a 308 the very same match. As I learn the 260 I will get better doping it, but really what advantage does it give, especially when there were 25 people in line behind my 308 score, most using some variation of the 6.5. Personally I find the 260 very unforgiving because small changes make bigger differences, which goes against the "math" people crunch on their computers. I never held off more than .2 mils in any one direction and still that was a miss in many cases.

    Knowing your rifle and load beats speed -- drop and drift are easily accounted for it you know the answer, which comes from experience. That means actually shooting it and not running the numbers. </div></div>

    I find this to be a misleading/confusing post.

    I agree that good trigger time is king, but studying the physics and crunching the numbers to find a ballistically superior cartridge/round is a worthwhile enterprise.......provided you couple it with good trigger time!

    I believe an excellent shooter with excellent experience with a high performance rifle/caliber will score more hits than another excellent shooter with excellent experience with a lesser performance rifle/caliber.

    That said however, good trigger time alone trumps caliber alone any day.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillBillySniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight- the current barrel I'm taking off is a 6x47 Lapua so the 243 is out the 6mm just isn't doing it for me in the wind.

    </div></div>

    if a 243 "isn't doing it for you in the wind" you have a bigger problem. </div></div>

    +1 to this. Perhaps you need to reconsider which bullets you're launching? There are some downright outstanding 6mm bullets out there that can make you look like a hero in the wind, even if you've never done it.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    Turbo,

    You just repeated exactly what I said, and if you spend a half a second reading HillyBilly Sniper's response about the 6mm not cutting it in the drift department you can see I am clearly correct.

    You said the same thing I did, unless you can personally exploit the differences and benefits, a ballistically better bullet does you very little good. A bad shooter with a good bullet will not beat a good shooter with a less than better bullet. Unless you give him something liked a 147gr round pulled from a link.

    Too many people crunch the numbers and think it will overcome their lack of practice, that is a hard cold fact that plays out everyday. Nothing misleading about it. What is misleading is when someone advocates a ballistically better option as a fix to poor skills. Which nobody wants to talk about because there are more bad shooters out there than good.

    Learn how to shoot first, worry about optimizing your bullet selection after. Unless you plan on going straight to practice to the point of actually learning something. If you are doing the same old things wrong hoping to find a fix, you are looking in the wrong direction.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    I will put this in simple terms.

    If the same shooter spends the same amount of time with the 260 and 308, most likely the 260 will show higher scores over time, because it is superior in how well it fights the effects of wind and ranging opps.

    The 260 will cost more to run and up keep and out to 600 yards you will never notice the difference.

    I loved my 260 but have standardized to a 155 Scenar 308 for my 100-1000 yard shooting events, so I only have to learn to dope one bullet. When I shoot my sniper rifle I just add additional hold over what my Rocket Powered F TR Rifle shoots the 155 Scenars at. Seriously its not much difference at all ( 2900 for Sniper and 3025 fps for F TR Rifle)
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillBillySniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight- the current barrel I'm taking off is a 6x47 Lapua so the 243 is out the 6mm just isn't doing it for me in the wind.

    </div></div>

    if a 243 "isn't doing it for you in the wind" you have a bigger problem.

    Can't help you at all, because no matter what you try isn't going to do it for you in the wind.

    Wind is just Dope... nothing more. </div></div>

    Let me rephrase "not doing it in the wind for me" I mean as far as how much hold off or dope you put in for a 6mm vs the 6.5 or 30 cal. Plus id like some more ass behind the slug down range as well. As far as building a gun to shoot thru the wind I'm not looking to do that at all just cut down on how much dope you have to run
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    You'll find it difficult to best the ballistics of a 6mm firing 115gr DTACs with a 6.5mm. Particularly on a short action. Same with the 7.62mm choices. To compete with the 115 DTAC, you'll be up in the 220(ish)gr territory from a 300WM or similar.

    You'll get "more ass behind it" with 220gr pills from a 300WM though.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turbo,

    You just repeated exactly what I said, and if you spend a half a second reading HillyBilly Sniper's response about the 6mm not cutting it in the drift department you can see I am clearly correct.

    You said the same thing I did, unless you can personally exploit the differences and benefits, a ballistically better bullet does you very little good. A bad shooter with a good bullet will not beat a good shooter with a less than better bullet. Unless you give him something liked a 147gr round pulled from a link.

    Too many people crunch the numbers and think it will overcome their lack of practice, that is a hard cold fact that plays out everyday. Nothing misleading about it. What is misleading is when someone advocates a ballistically better option as a fix to poor skills. Which nobody wants to talk about because there are more bad shooters out there than good.

    Learn how to shoot first, worry about optimizing your bullet selection after. Unless you plan on going straight to practice to the point of actually learning something. If you are doing the same old things wrong hoping to find a fix, you are looking in the wrong direction. </div></div>

    Let's put this in perspective. In previous posts regarding that day shooting I did say that being able to call the wind is the supreme judge of how well you are going to do. But if your score depends on getting inside that circle or having it drift out of that circle because of an unseen mile per hour gust, then I'd go with the ballistically superior bullet. At which point, yes, you then need to get time on the trigger to see how it is affected in each and every condition.

    I have no doubt you know the .308 and it's ballistics inside and out. It quite frankly surprises me you say your having issues with the .260. Seriously, no pun intended. Running the numbers in your head in reaction to conditions you see out there requires less from the .260 than it does the .308 Yet as you note you have those reactions ingrained so well that you still shoot much better with the .308

    I would say this to you HillBillySniper that what Frank says is true in that if the .243 isn't doing it for you in the wind he is correct. You need to focus on wind reading skills not a new caliber. But, I will also say that getting the best bullet you can to 'limit' the issues with wind is going to help. Again, only if you focus on getting the correct read of what to hold and the results of what you held and what you hit. The only way to limit that time is call every single bullet as best you can, observe what goes on down range and evaluate every single shot right down to the nubbins of what you ended up with.

    <span style="color: #3333FF">Edit:

    One of the things I found incredibly helpful when we shot out in Nevada was ScottyS not only had a video camera at the firing line, he put one up focused on the target area. Boy talk about feedback! You could see the conditions downrange. If you could keep track of how each shot was held or dialed for it's a clear indicator of what you did and didn't see or do. That of course is all dependent upon whether you loaded your loads right and maintained all good discipline during the shot.</span>
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    When wind is present and an issue, it is almost never a 1 MPH change, unless it is only 3MPH to start with. As well you are still "doping' your cartridge for the wind, you're not doping a 260 based on a 243 or 308, you dope it based off a 260. Mistakes are mistakes, and errors compound like anything else.

    Changes with flatter shooting cartridges have equally negative effects, the idea you can "blow" a call the bullet will handle it is in fact, very misleading. The only time that works is usually in elevation and most targets are more than large enough to make up for elevation difference. In terms of things like F Class where the targets are round and equal in size, well you're zeroing your rifle for that distance, you have spotter rounds and misses outside the 10 Ring are usually more shooter error that get blamed on wind. However when it is the wind, that is because that mysterious 1MPH wasn't around and it was more likely a much higher windage mistake. Only good shooters blow it by a single MPH and even then, see below.

    This phantom 1MPH wind, well let's just say, after something liked 5MPH doesn't exist. Especially far out there, the wind is never constant. Look at part of this video, the wind here was only blowing 6 to 8MPH and see how it changes and effects the smoke. If you think you are "blowing" the call within the drift factor of the bullet and a sub MOA Target, especially beyond 600 yards, you are again, sorely mistaken and misleading people.

    <iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/i3YA2nQMTq4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    I have a short action I'm building off of so as good as a 300wm with a 220gr pill sounds its outta the question. As far as the 115 DTACs the current twist of my barrel is not fast enough twist, and I've had a 6mm for a couple years also why I'm wanting to try either a 6.5 or 30 cal.

    Thanks for all the replies but as far as building a gun to shoot thru the wind or anything that's not what I'm looking to do, just looking to try a new caliber and wanted to know what everyones opinon on the two I narrowed it down to was the 260AI or 308
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When wind is present and an issue, it is almost never a 1 MPH change, unless it is only 3MPH to start with. As well you are still "doping' your cartridge for the wind, you're not doping a 260 based on a 243 or 308, you dope it based off a 260. Mistakes are mistakes, and errors compound like anything else.

    Changes with flatter shooting cartridges have equally negative effects, the idea you can "blow" a call the bullet will handle it is in fact, very misleading. The only time that works is usually in elevation and most targets are more than large enough to make up for elevation difference. In terms of things like F Class where the targets are round and equal in size, well you're zeroing your rifle for that distance, you have spotter rounds and misses outside the 10 Ring are usually more shooter error that get blamed on wind. However when it is the wind, that is because that mysterious 1MPH wasn't around and it was more likely a much higher windage mistake. Only good shooters blow it by a single MPH and even then, see below.

    This phantom 1MPH wind, well let's just say, after something liked 5MPH doesn't exist. Especially far out there, the wind is never constant. Look at part of this video, the wind here was only blowing 6 to 8MPH and see how it changes and effects the smoke. If you think you are "blowing" the call within the drift factor of the bullet and a sub MOA Target, especially beyond 600 yards, you are again, sorely mistaken and misleading people.

    <iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/i3YA2nQMTq4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    </div></div>

    A good example of this is F versus F TR Class. At 600 we mostly shoot same scores ( 308 and 6.5/284/7mms). At 1000 yards things are different when wind gets weird with constant ups and downs. Our 308 scores tend to be lower than the better calibers but when is constant we do abouty the same. Its all about missing the wind call, but honestly most good wind reader guys never blow the call with 308 enough for a miss on a torso size target at a 1000 yards, with 308s
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillBillySniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a short action I'm building off of so as good as a 300wm with a 220gr pill sounds its outta the question. As far as the 115 DTACs the current twist of my barrel is not fast enough twist, and I've had a 6mm for a couple years also why I'm wanting to try either a 6.5 or 30 cal.

    Thanks for all the replies but as far as building a gun to shoot thru the wind or anything that's not what I'm looking to do, just looking to try a new caliber and wanted to know what everyones opinon on the two I narrowed it down to was the 260AI or 308 </div></div>

    Might I recommend a laser or raygun to you? Sounds like it might fit your criteria.

    A 30 caliber one, of course!
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillBillySniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a short action I'm building off of so as good as a 300wm with a 220gr pill sounds its outta the question. As far as the 115 DTACs the current twist of my barrel is not fast enough twist, and I've had a 6mm for a couple years also why I'm wanting to try either a 6.5 or 30 cal.

    Thanks for all the replies but as far as building a gun to shoot thru the wind or anything that's not what I'm looking to do, just looking to try a new caliber and wanted to know what everyones opinon on the two I narrowed it down to was the 260AI or 308</div></div>

    OK, my opinion is based off what I think is better in the wind.

    Also, if your 6mm whatever doesn't have the twist to stabilize 115's then you haven't really experienced the true advantage of the 6mm's. It's really like having another caliber.

    And, to Lowlight, my 1 mph example was pretty much based on score shooting situation. In truth as your video showed up in the mountains, a 5-10 mph gust would be required to make a difference in a tactical shooting experience. When not seen, that will affect the bullet enough to miss a target. I have seen that a number of times in mountainous terrain.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffbird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just adding something for consideration from German Salazar's blog, which is similar to Lowlight's observations:

    http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/04/cartridges-sibling-rivalry-308-vs-30-06.html

    Mid-Range Comparison
    In NRA Mid-Range matches (500 and 600 yards), the average score and percentage of possible score for each cartridge was as follows:

    .308 - 597-36X (99.5%) 960 rounds fired
    6XC - 596-35X (99.3%) 1260 rounds fired
    .30-06 - 595-31X (99.2%) 2580 rounds fired

    Interestingly, the high X count (44X) was reached with all three cartridges. During the time period under review, I shot three scores of 600 with the .308, one 600 with the 6XC and none with the .30-06. Over the years I've shot 23 scores of 600, but only one was with a .30-06 and that was about 15 years ago.

    If we look at the score averages, the .308 comes out on top at the Mid-Range distances. The average for the .308 is composed of a smaller number of scores because I tend to shoot the .30-06 more often, but I think it's a large enough sample to be reasonably accurate so the Mid-Range win goes to the .308 by 0.3% of the possible score. By the way, notice the the 6XC, as good as it is, simply straddles the .30 caliber cartridges, it is not the winner - that may surprise some people. When you factor in the shorter barrel life of a 6XC compared to the .30's, that becomes something to really consider when selecting a cartridge for Mid-Range matches.


    At long range, 1000 yards, he had different results as would be expected:


    6XC - 98.9%, 360 rounds fired
    .30-06 - 97.7%, 460 rounds fired
    .308 - 97.3%, 490 rounds fired

    Importantly, his skill level is exceedingly high with all three, again confirming Lowlight and other's point that practice and skill will be more important than the differences in the rounds for most people.


    </div></div>

    Wow, great post and link! Thanks!
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillBillySniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a short action I'm building off of so as good as a 300wm with a 220gr pill sounds its outta the question. As far as the 115 DTACs the current twist of my barrel is not fast enough twist, and I've had a 6mm for a couple years also why I'm wanting to try either a 6.5 or 30 cal.

    Thanks for all the replies but as far as building a gun to shoot thru the wind or anything that's not what I'm looking to do, just looking to try a new caliber and wanted to know what everyones opinon on the two I narrowed it down to was the 260AI or 308 </div></div>

    Might I recommend a laser or raygun to you? Sounds like it might fit your criteria.

    A 30 caliber one, of course! </div></div>

    Hey that sounds like a great idea ill ask my gunsmith about it when I drop off my short action and tell him to make me a 300wm repeater for the 220gr pill!!

    To the rest that gave useful information thanks you for your input!
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    I have both the 260AI and 308. The 260AI dominates the 308 but it can be a bit of a headache dealing with fireforming. I didn't mind it much and with a 28inch barrel I am seeing 2900fps with a 140amax with another grain or so of capacity. I will be backing this load down a bit though to save on the barrel. I also haven't had to trim yet. Can't really go wrong with just a standard 260 though. Those fast shooting 6mm rigs with the dtac are nice but barrel life can suffer. Do some searching on 6mmbr.com and decide for yourself. I think 260 is the best combo between ballistics and barrel life fwiw.

    Justin
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    I have a 260AI, it was built by Terry Cross a bunch of years ago when he and Jim Clark were using them at the SH matches. As I said, they both went back to straight 260s as the barrel life was not that great, and the negative aspects of the AI didn't outweigh the benefits. I have both 260s and the 260AI and aside from the few FPS more you get with heavier bullets, the barrel life they got running them hard was only about 2500 rounds. I have only put half of that down mine and basically walked away from it. I was getting a tick over 2900 with 139gr bullets.

    I can get 2900fps from my 130gr VLD load in fact 2950fps, so what's the point ? It (260AI) was accurate, but no more so than any of my other rifles and a lot less work and definitely better barrel life.

    Try running the numbers of "wind drift' using a 140gr bullet and change the fps by 100, and you'll see maybe minor gain at 1000 yards and no place else. So instead of close to 5000 rounds of life you'll see half pushing a heavy bullet that fast. Same as pushing a 243 over 3000fps. You'll see an elevation gain, but the wind drift not so much, and even then, its just a math problem as dope is dope, doesn't matter if it says hold 2.0 Mils of wind or 2.2 mils of wind you still have to hold wind and press the trigger correctly.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    I've had this debate with a friend of mine for a year now. My opinion, why?? If you want a faster speed, then build a 6.5 x284 and burn the barrel out. The 260 does have great barrel life. Take advantage of the performance and barrel life.
    Thought about the CM but it is just a different spin on the 260. So then again (WHY). If any change in rifles would be the 6.5 x47 for using less powder and getting similar results.

    My 2 cents.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    To add one more thing. The 308 is the best rifle to used as a training tool. It will teach you more of what the wind does at farther distances. You make the wrong wind call and you will miss. Shot a match with a friend and he couldn't understand why he hit the other target. He missed it by 18". This was the wind affecting the bullet. He swore it was his dope. Took it home and shot on a calm day dead on.

    The 260 allows you to cheat the wind but the 308 will make you a better shot due to wind calls.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    260AI, run at AI loads, I'd be surprised to find you got more than 2000 rounds/tube, my guess would be closer to 1500, somewhere around 1/2 to 1/3 as many as you'll get from a 308. If you really want to get the most out of an "overbore" round, you need to have enough tube, I don't know what that would be for the 260AI, but to get really improved vel. you need to push it hard in a short tube, again 1500rds, a longer tube will help get the higher vel. with "easier" loads, but in I still don't think you pick up much more barrel life. Note: by pushing hard, I don't mean unsafe, just a "heavy" load.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    My $0.02 on barrel life with 260AI:

    I dont see how you can drive a 140 class bullet from a 260ai @ ~2900+ and get even 1500 rounds, when a 6.5-284 at the same velocity gets ~1000.

    Several buddies at my club run 6.5-284, and can "eek out" 1200 rounds of f class type shooting with easy loads. 700-800 for max loads with the 142smk @ ~ 2950fps.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win


    Don't forget about the efficiency of the 260AI, it achieves the 2900 with less powder, therefore less heat. However, LL was right, you only get nominal gains in ballistics. I am going to back mine down to the lower node 46ish grains 4831SC and should see some real gains in barrel life and maintain phenomenal accuracy in my 28inch barrel.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    If you already have a 308win, then I would go with a 260rem or a 6.5 creedmoor for less drop, higher BC, and less recoil. But if you don't have a 308win, then I would go with that, as there is something to be said about easy access to match quality loaded ammo and reloading supplies, etc.

    I personally went with a 6.5 Creedmoor to supplement my 308wins because I have both a bolt-action as well as a semi-auto in 6.5cm. Otherwise 6.5cm and 260rem differences are essentially a wash.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am very impressed by the 6.5CM, I just built one in July, and only have a little time behind it, but it's very good. </div></div>

    Lowlight,

    Are you referring to the one you built with Mr. Gradous?
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    Do you like headaches? Do you like putting in a lot of extra work for minimal gains? Do you like finicky cartridges that require constant attention?

    If you answered "YES!" to all these questions select the .260 Ackley Improved!

    Otherwise, build yourself either a standard .260 Remington or a .308 Winchester and spend your free time on the range shooting instead of being stuck behind a reloading bench trying to figure out the "What NOW?" reason why your groups went to shit.

    And I haven't even touched upon all the fun you can have getting a .260 Ackley Improved to feed reliablely from all your mags ...
    shocked.gif
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you like headaches? Do you like putting in a lot of extra work for minimal gains? Do you like finicky cartridges that require constant attention?

    If you answered "YES!" to all these questions select the .260 Ackley Improved!

    Otherwise, build yourself either a standard .260 Remington or a .308 Winchester and spend your free time on the range shooting instead of being stuck behind a reloading bench trying to figure out the "What NOW?" reason why your groups went to shit.

    And I haven't even touched upon all the fun you can have getting a .260 Ackley Improved to feed reliablely from all your mags ...
    shocked.gif
    </div></div>

    A different perspective on this is when running a .260 AI or any AI 'hot' you are going to have problems with the case. But when run at normal pressures the cases are going to last longer with less problems than standard cases. The sharper shoulder prevents case stretch. That is unless you use cheap brass or load so hot the case is going to deform no matter what. It's easy to do in an Ackley as the 40 deg. shoulder acts like a pressure dam during ignition of the powder. Top loads take very little change to send it off the top of the pressure scale.

    To me this is where the 6.5 CM shines. You get most of the benefits of the sharper shoulder but still allow plasma flow with the 30 deg. shoulder. And, more capacity than the .260, but not overbore. Again though, all is good until you start pushing the top end.

    As far as capacity is concerned, you are really right on the edge of being overbore for that caliber. The 6.5-.284 is considered overbore and that is why barrels get used so fast. Competition shooters found if they loaded down, the barrels lasted exponentially longer. The drop in useable capacity led a lot of them to drop back to the 6x47 and .260. Hornady IMO came up with about the best blend of all the 6.5mm traits and produced a great round.

    All that said, there isn't much of a hill of beans in difference between it and the .260.

    As far as magazines go, I'll totally agree that trying to get the lips to work with the .260 AI can be a pain. There is only a .006" difference, not a .030" or .040" difference of other Ackley cartridges to have to work with.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you like headaches? Do you like putting in a lot of extra work for minimal gains? Do you like finicky cartridges that require constant attention?

    If you answered "YES!" to all these questions select the .260 Ackley Improved!

    Otherwise, build yourself either a standard .260 Remington or a .308 Winchester and spend your free time on the range shooting instead of being stuck behind a reloading bench trying to figure out the "What NOW?" reason why your groups went to shit.

    And I haven't even touched upon all the fun you can have getting a .260 Ackley Improved to feed reliablely from all your mags ...
    shocked.gif
    </div></div>

    I shoot a single shot so I don't know about the feeding issues but what about the 260AI brass requires constant attention or having finicky issues? This has not been my experience since I have been shooting one. For me it has been as simple as forming and then using. Load development didn't really exist, I put a safe charge of 4831SC in and seated just off the lands and presto. Have shot sub .250 groups in a match. I am just curious to the problems that others have ran into.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you like headaches? Do you like putting in a lot of extra work for minimal gains? Do you like finicky cartridges that require constant attention?

    If you answered "YES!" to all these questions select the .260 Ackley Improved!

    Otherwise, build yourself either a standard .260 Remington or a .308 Winchester and spend your free time on the range shooting instead of being stuck behind a reloading bench trying to figure out the "What NOW?" reason why your groups went to shit.

    And I haven't even touched upon all the fun you can have getting a .260 Ackley Improved to feed reliablely from all your mags ...
    shocked.gif
    </div></div>

    I would have to disagree a little! A buddy of mine has a 260AI as well as some other guys I shoot with, never heard or seen anyone of them complain or had problems with it as far as finicky or groups going to shit. The one guy I shoot with all the time has his set up with a standard acics mag and it feeds with ease. As far as loading I think we tried 2 different loads and they both worked great only differnce was 2 different powders, so he loaded everything up and hasn't had to toy with it at all. I really would like to know what issues you've had in a little more details because honestly I've never heard anyone say anything close to your post about the 260AI other than the case prep being a pain...
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillBillySniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you like headaches? Do you like putting in a lot of extra work for minimal gains? Do you like finicky cartridges that require constant attention?

    If you answered "YES!" to all these questions select the .260 Ackley Improved!

    Otherwise, build yourself either a standard .260 Remington or a .308 Winchester and spend your free time on the range shooting instead of being stuck behind a reloading bench trying to figure out the "What NOW?" reason why your groups went to shit.

    And I haven't even touched upon all the fun you can have getting a .260 Ackley Improved to feed reliablely from all your mags ...
    shocked.gif
    </div></div>

    I would have to disagree a little! A buddy of mine has a 260AI as well as some other guys I shoot with, never heard or seen anyone of them complain or had problems with it as far as finicky or groups going to shit. The one guy I shoot with all the time has his set up with a standard acics mag and it feeds with ease. As far as loading I think we tried 2 different loads and they both worked great only differnce was 2 different powders, so he loaded everything up and hasn't had to toy with it at all. I really would like to know what issues you've had in a little more details because honestly I've never heard anyone say anything close to your post about the 260AI other than the case prep being a pain...</div></div>

    Hillbilly,

    Typically, I find that when I run across AI reloaders in one caliber or another the ususal suspect is that they try to get speeds of the next cartridge up in volume. IMO, one of the benefits of all AI cases is that they last longer with less fuss. However, the killer with them is when guys hot load them, and most do at some given time of owning them, the case stretches. When it stretches it's harder to get it to form back down like a more tapered body and shoulder.

    I've not noticed groups going to hell so bad as I've seen guys beating their bolts closed. I think it speaks for itself how someones group is going to turn out though, when he's pissed and his hand hurts from beating his bolt closed.
     
    Re: 260AI or 308 Win

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I loved my 260 but have standardized to a 155 Scenar 308 for my 100-1000 yard shooting events, so I only have to learn to dope one bullet. When I shoot my sniper rifle I just add additional hold over what my Rocket Powered F TR Rifle shoots the 155 Scenars at. Seriously its not much difference at all ( 2900 for Sniper and 3025 fps for F TR Rifle) </div></div>

    Mike-

    I've read this thread with great interest, as I shoot a .308 in FTR and tactical matches. I've looked at the 260, had a 6.5X47 but went back to the .308 for the 'one rifle/one bullet/one dope' simplicity. Mind sharing some more info on the rocket powered FTR and the Sniper rifle calibers and loads/velocities etc?
    I picked up a certificate for a Rock barrel at the Oregon Sniper Challenge in June, and I'm thinking either stay in .308 or go .260 though not AI. To me, the .308 advantage is that I'm beginning to learn it fairly well, and it keeps me in some matches that don't allow non-LE calibers. So I don't know if having an F-Class rifle and a Sniper rifle, in different calibers, is worth doing.

    1911fan