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284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

michael_aos

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
I've been planning a long-action 284 Winchester for a while. I've got Winchester 284 Win brass, Lapua 6.5 284 brass, 284 Win dies, conversion for my Giraud trimmer. RL17, 7mm bullets, 30-06 donor in an AICS 2.0, 300 Win magazine. 7mm barrel inbound.

Any reason to consider 280 Remington or some other 7mm cartridge instead?

Basically looking for something better in the wind than 260 Remington.
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

A .284 on a long action would be a great build since you can seat the heavy stuff long. Graham is having GAP build him one right now. I think that .280 has a little more powder capacity but since you already have all the gear for the .284 I would go that direction. My .280 load is Berger 7mm 180VLD 56gr RE22 @ 2765.That gets me 28MOA Elevation and 6MOA for a FV wind at 1000 Yards.
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

Maybe I should have said throat life. My 280 had a ~2500 rounds through it when I sold it and the throat had very little erosion or fire cracking.

My buddies 284 was hotter and shot flatter but the erosion and fire cracking was pretty bad by 1500ish rounds. Accuracy was still good but had lost its edge.
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

I love my new 284 I am pushing 162 at 3030fps with rl 17 you have a great combo stick with it. mine is also a 700la with badger m5

IMGP6806.jpg
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

I'am build 2 284s. I thought they have descent barrel life.This is why the F-Classer are shooting them. I shot with a shooter in Iowa and he had over 2000 rounds down the tube. I thought it preform great..

Go with the 284.
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

our local guys got close to 3k accurate rounds of of their 284s running a 175 smk at around 2850 fps. i am running the same brand barrel and same load as they are. i am at 2k rounds right now and it still shoots as good as it ever has. that is not saying the 284 is better or worse than the 280 though. i have no experience with a 280 to make a comparison.
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are the real differences between the 7mm non-magnum from Winchester and the 7mm non-magnum from Remington? And please explain how the barrel difference is that much better for the 280. </div></div>

I don't know about the barrel life difference either, although, I'd suspect it has more to do with the case geometry than the actual powder burn involved since 280 Rem burns 10%+ more powder.

The 284 Win has to be stoked REALLY hard to get the same velocities as a 280 Rem. The 280 Rem holds within 2gr of water that a 7 SAUM does, 3000 fps from a 180gr VLD in the 280 can be achieved without running a 28" or longer barrel, I've seen it done at 2975 fps in a 24" factory tube, a high quality custom tube that is polished/lapped should break 3k without too much trouble.

The benefit of a 284 over a 280 for geometry is that if you wanted to run something like a Kwik Klip bottom metal setup, you have plenty of room to seat the VLD's out very long and still fit inside a 3.315" magazine. This doesn't happen with a 30-06 based case

EDIT: I just saw you have just about everything needed for a 284, I'd stick to a 284 if that's the case, you certainly won't be sorry with it.
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

I'm new to the 7mm scene, and am still in the initial stages of load development for a pair of Ruger 77MKI .280's, identical except for barrel weight and length.

In comparing the load manuals for the two cartridges, the impression I get is that the .280 has a significantly longer and somewhat narrower powder column than the .284, and enjoys about a 5% usable case capacity advantage. When I say usable capacity, I'm talking about the actual published charges encompassed within the min and max charge limits for the various published bullet and propellant combination.

I do not consider myself sufficiently experienced with either chambering to make any pronouncements, so I'll simply pass on the one my 1996 Nosler manual gives. They do all their 7mm bullet testing with the .280 Rem; primarily because it has a good capacity to deliver both good velocities and good accuracy. For me, that's a plus; and an excellent recommendation vis-a-vis the two chamberings.

I am also heedful of the above observations about throat life.

IMHO, the .280 Remington can achieve similar performance with less heat and pressures, and take better advantage of a longer barrel's capability to runs heavy bullets at competitive velocities with less wear and tear going on in the engine room.

My initial testing is being done with Nosler 120gr Ballistic tips, which are at the light end of the useful weight range. While it would not be my choice for LR disciplines, it can be driven to 3250-3300fps in a 26" barrel, and as such, at 1000ft altitude and 70's temps, should arrive at 1Kyd with around 1150fps and 33MOA drop, which is nearly as good as a .260 with a 142 MatchKing. As bullet weights increase, 1Kyd velocities improve markedly. For me, this means I can back off the pressures to allow a more conservative approach to bore life, and still get to carry the mail respectably. I firmly belive that lower nodes are preferable as long as they arrive on target with a reasonable margin beyond transsonic, and simply view drop and drift as realities that need to be compensated in an appropriate manner, whatever their extent.

Let us consider the prospect of a 120gr expanding projectile arriving from several hundred yards distance at somewhere in the mid to high 2000's of feet per second; only from the groundhog's point of view. I forsee nothing short of a marmot in the throes of a psychotic break. And well one should.

IMHO, the .280 Remington makes better use of the age-old reliable .30-'06's case capacity in a manner not unlike the way the .260 does with the .308's. I suggest that the recent improvement in LR capable 7mm projectiles is underutilized by the LR fraternity, and that the .280 Remington's potential in this area is largely unrecognized.

For folks interested in using .30-'06 brass as a basic source for .280 cases, please note that the .280's shoulder is slightly forward, and that fireforming in a manner similar to an AI case's concoction is in order. Fireforming loads will need to headspace on the bullet/lands conjunction. Though I am not a fan of AI's, I imagine there's no additional case forming overhead involved over the basic .280's to go further and make it an AI. I just don't really see any need for the AI, but who am I to criticize?

If I had an LR action, this is the chambering I'd be considering most seriously for LR shooting. For OAL's I don't really pay special heed to short jumps, or seating into the lands, but rather, will do my .280 Remington load development to allow the best accuracy while loading to magazine length, since my rifles double as hunters. Likewise, my bullets will be dual purpose projectiles; like Nosler Ballistic Tips, Hornady SST's, etc.

Greg
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3000 fps from a 180gr VLD in the 280 can be achieved without running a 28" or longer barrel,</div></div>

I've run custom tubes in 280 Rems, 280 RCBS's, and 280 AI's.

That is one VERY HOT load.

It takes a stiff load of Retumbo out of a 7mm Rem Mag to get that speed.

 
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Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3000 fps from a 180gr VLD in the 280 can be achieved without running a 28" or longer barrel,</div></div>

I've run custom tubes in 280 Rems, 280 RCBS's, and 280 AI's.

That is one VERY HOT load.

It takes a stiff load of Retumbo out of a 7mm Rem Mag to get that speed.

</div></div>

It's hot, but it can be done without a 28" barrel, that was what I was trying to convey.

I measured the fired case water capacity of my 7 SAUM and 280, the 280 with Win brass held 72.5gr of water, the 7 SAUM held 74.2 IIRC, although it's not unlikely that I mixed up a decimal digit, I know it was 72.x adn 74.x gr of water.

With RL22 or RL 17 a number of people are running the 7 short magnums that hot
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

I was going to do .280 development with H4831, but found my Dillon measure would not meter the volume of powder without installing a magnum powder slide, which I do not own. I went with H4350, which will work and can be metered, and if necessary can trim the internal adjuster in one of my powder slides to increase oevrall volume; but I doubt I'll be needing such volumes. Right now I'm working with charges below 57.0gr of H4350 with a published max of 58.0gr.

Greg
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

I recieved an Excel document from B Litz ( sorry if spelled wrong ) with tons of .280 load data. I'll have to shoot him an email to see if he don't mind me publishing it to the reloading section before doing so. One thing I did notice is that in his data he didn't run the 168VLD's and 180VLD's any faster than around 2700. Could there be an accuracy node in that range? I havnt asked him yet.
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.280AI = 7mmSAUM

Capacities are essentially identical. With the .280AI you don't get the "advantages" of the short-fat powder column, for whatever it's worth. </div></div>

I don't buy into the short fat powder column being more accurate. But it does look cool.

Advantages of the 3006 parent case is more rounds down in a bdl setup than you can get with a 284 type case

my 280 AI shoots nice tiny groups. I will ALWAYS own one

280, 280 AI, 284 Win..... You are splitting hairs here. They are all great..

Pick one and don't look back!!!
 
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Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

[OFF TOPIC]

Can anyone tell me what detachable magazines and bottom metal can be used to .280AI on some sort of tactical stock? (McMillan / Manners / HS Precision / Bell & Carlson)

[ON TOPIC]
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

I know the 300wm aics mags work on 284 nicely but not sure on teh 280ai ranger. I prefer the 284 it gives you more room to seat out the bullets and more brass choices lapua,norma, and winchester. it is a vey efficient case but then again so is the 280ai so pick your poison i guess.
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[OFF TOPIC]

Can anyone tell me what detachable magazines and bottom metal can be used to .280AI on some sort of tactical stock? (McMillan / Manners / HS Precision / Bell & Carlson)

[ON TOPIC]
</div></div>

You can use .300WM AICS magazines with the '06 family of cartridges if you bend the feedlips in ever so slightly.
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

Call me old school, but I'd stick with the 30-06.

Yea I know...ohhh, the BC on 30 cal bullets has a different number and the 6-7mm cartridge of the week (weak?) is so much more popular.....

Umm, Whitefeather shot a pre 64 model 70 Winchester in.....wait for it....30-06.
Seems he did ok with it at very long ranges
smile.gif

The barrel life will become a non-issue too
smile.gif
 
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Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

Most published load data for the .284 is based on the standard COL. Keep in mind that the original COL was based on a round developed for a short carbine. When loading the long VLDs so that they aren't down in the engine room a lot of extra room for powder is recovered. Thus greater velocities without hammering pressure through the roof. Of course this works best in a standard length action instead of a short action.

I would pick a .284 built on a standard length action over a standard .280, but would have to think about it if the choice where a .280 AI. Or maybe not, no fireforming with a .284.
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

Sort of on topic...

Can someone chime in with the twist rate your are using in either or both of these chambering's for the 162-180 gr. bullets.

Thanks
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

Hi we fit heaps of 284 win barrels for F Class and seated long with a 175gr MatchKing 54gr H4831sc will give you around 2850fps depending on barrel length and type. the 280 holds a little more but unless you are going to use slower powders you will likley get the same velocities with the 280AI you will get another 50 to 100fps depending on powders and barrels.

As you have everything for the 284 i would use it it is scary accurate out to 1200 yards and we have shot them to 1500 yards they are a plesant cartrige to shoot and work very well at all ranges. I have found the sierra matchkings to be the best for 1500 yards because they go transonic better than the berger VLD's and the 168gr MatchKings are also awsome there BC is much higher than published we run 56gr with them but start 2gr under on the loads and work up and you will have an awsome rifle. i cant see the point of running bullets lighter than 162gr A Max if you do you may aswell use a 260 or 6mm.

Good luck and any match 9 twist will be perfect from 24" up to 30"
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

One thing in favour of .284 Win is that you can buy excellent Lapua and Norma brass for it in addition to regular Winchester brass. Just open it up and load it. No fireforming or similar chores.

Tight chamber will keep your brass in good condition for a long time.
 
Re: 284 Win -vs- 280 Rem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Call me old school, but I'd stick with the 30-06.

Yea I know...ohhh, the BC on 30 cal bullets has a different number and the 6-7mm cartridge of the week (weak?) is so much more popular.....

Umm, Whitefeather shot a pre 64 model 70 Winchester in.....wait for it....30-06.
Seems he did ok with it at very long ranges
smile.gif

The barrel life will become a non-issue too
smile.gif
</div></div>

The common excuse against this (and I'm a major fan of the 30-06 btw) is the recoil involved with the high BC bullets. I ahppen to run 208's from mine 2850-2875 fps and it's a hammer, but for most people the recoil isn't something they want to deal with.