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Gunsmithing 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

dar1246

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 6, 2008
1,094
2
55
Nebraska
www.youtube.com
What is the advantage to the grooves? I normally shoot a 5 groove but recently ordered a 3 groove to try. What are the plus and minus?

I would think the lesser grooves less fouling in the barrel and maybe a little faster.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

I think the land vs groove surface areas would maybe effect velocity and pressure more so than the number of the grooves? I am about to get my first 3-groove and it is supposed to shoot faster, but not sure what the land and groove surface ratio is. I think some people like odd-numbered grooves because the land is opposite of the groove on the other side, but I would also be curious why there are so many different options, and what the purposes to each are...

Dave
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

I don't know the reasons why? but this has always puzzled me. I also order my first 3 groove barrel in a 308. Curious to see how it performs.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

My 300 WinMag had a 3 groove. The Rock barrels I have are all 5. The 6 groove is an Obermeyer. I have had an 8 groove, but I don't remember the make right now. The most important thing is THEY ALL SHOOT VERY WELL. I'm sure that somewhere there is a mathmatical equation that says if it isn't (THIS) way it won't ever shoot worth a flip. IF you do find that magic equation let me know.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

I remember reading somewhere, which eventualy caused me to order a 3 groove, is that the lesser amount of crevices that a 3 groove has (on either side of a land where it meets a groove) make for a quicker clean up.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

We just got done making some .44 cal. test barrels. Had 12 grooves! Saami spec.

I don't see the number of grooves making a difference in accuracy or barrel life. Shot 2, 3, 4, conventional 5 groove (got one on my 6PPC bench gun right now and it's a hammer), 5R and 6 groove in a lot of different calibers.

Pressures etc....I think the bore surface area total will effect pressures more than the number of grooves.

The only way to get good hard consistent data is you would have to take say a qty. of 5 three groove barrels, 5 four groove barrels, and 5 say 8 groove barrels. All the same caliber made to the same bore and groove spec. by the same manufacturer out of the same lot of steel. Load the same lot of powder, bullets, primers etc....and shoot them in the same controlled conditions to get the data for comparison. That's the only way you will get any good data.

I say the more uniform the bore and groove sizes are over the whole length of the barrel, the more uniform the twist rate and the straighter the barrel the more forgiving it is going to be regardless of the number of grooves.

Later, Frank
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

I dont know the whys or whys not. The only time I gave it consideration is with M14s. When we started getting the M852s (168s) we found they required a 6 grove barrel, where we got by with the 4 groves for the 173s in the M118s.

Like I said, I dont know why, maybe some barrel maker will chime in.

Anyway I had to issure two rifles to team members, depending on what ammo we got. (one with the military heavy match 4 grove when we had to shoot M118s and the 6 grove Barrnet Barrels when we got M852s)

I was out of the game when the M118LRs came out. I do know the heavy Barnet 6 groves on my Super Match M1A shoots the 175s and older 180 SMKs pretty good.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: __JR__</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turn it up to eleven </div></div>


I thought they only went to 10.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

I got tired of counting
tankbarrel.jpg
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

i've seen Springfield '03 serial #123 and it had a two groove barrel
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

Wheres Waldo, Read the last paragraph of my first post.

Call me and I would be happy to talk to you. Easier on the phone than by writing a book.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
262-649-1574
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

From a physics standpoint and ignoring what barrels are actually made with..

Remembering that a bullet is spinning at like 200,000+rpm (depending on the twist rate)

It takes more grip on a heavier bullet to get it to spin..2 grooves would just peel a layer off of a 300grn bullet @ 2900fps..

The photo of the tank... ~7lbs projectile, 5900fps MV....needs like 40grooves.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

NB, also remember that once we start talking about 20mm+ projectiles, they use a driving band to impart spin on them, and alot of those projectiles have plastic driving bands....

I could see a 30 cal. FMJ having more grip on lands and grooves than a 25mm AP round with its plastic driving band.

Its all whatever though. Frank, I'll give you a call when I get done with RCBS...been on hold for ever.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

And now, for something completely different (well sorta, anyway); I'm interested in polygonal rifling.

Looking at the Internet, not a lot to read.

I understand the bit about male and female polygonal rifling configurations, and seem to understand that they can be made with all the conventional methods, including hammer forging.

I just can't seem to find much info beyond the theoretical. I'd like to see something about them from folks who have them, have shot them, and have formed informed opinions about their effectiveness.

When it comes to accurate and uniform twist, etc., I think I should have some preference for hammer forging, since the mandrel dimensions should be better controlled, but I've also heard/read anecdotal commentary about the effects of hammer forging on barrel stresses and maintaining a stable POI.

So, I'm interested in viewpoints based on actual experience with such barrels, and in the interest of brevity, am asking about rifle barrels only. I deliberately chose to post this on the forum, because I think others might be interested in such questions, and PM responses would deny them any resulting info.

Greg
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And now, for something completely different (well sorta, anyway); I'm interested in polygonal rifling.

Looking at the Internet, not a lot to read.

I understand the bit about male and female polygonal rifling configurations, and seem to understand that they can be made with all the conventional methods, including hammer forging.

I just can't seem to find much info beyond the theoretical. I'd like to see something about them from folks who have them, have shot them, and have formed informed opinions about their effectiveness.

When it comes to accurate and uniform twist, etc., I think I should have some preference for hammer forging, since the mandrel dimensions should be better controlled, but I've also heard/read anecdotal commentary about the effects of hammer forging on barrel stresses and maintaining a stable POI.

So, I'm interested in viewpoints based on actual experience with such barrels, and in the interest of brevity, am asking about rifle barrels only. I deliberately chose to post this on the forum, because I think others might be interested in such questions, and PM responses would deny them any resulting info.

Greg </div></div>

Greg Langelius,

That would make a great thread. I to would be interested in info on polygonal rifling.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We can do barrels up to 24 grooves as of right now.

Some barrels like 20mm are 15 groove not all.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>

We had the riflers with Haas 5c index units mounted to the spindles at HS, so I could do pretty much any groove count. Which was nice, because at time we pretty much had the ballistic test barrel market by the bollocks. Run anything Saami called out for. Did a lot of the microgroove test barrels, used to drive me nuts to cut that last couple tenths..I said there's a reason Marlin buttons these..
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And now, for something completely different (well sorta, anyway); I'm interested in polygonal rifling.

Looking at the Internet, not a lot to read.

I understand the bit about male and female polygonal rifling configurations, and seem to understand that they can be made with all the conventional methods, including hammer forging.

I just can't seem to find much info beyond the theoretical. I'd like to see something about them from folks who have them, have shot them, and have formed informed opinions about their effectiveness.

When it comes to accurate and uniform twist, etc., I think I should have some preference for hammer forging, since the mandrel dimensions should be better controlled, but I've also heard/read anecdotal commentary about the effects of hammer forging on barrel stresses and maintaining a stable POI.

So, I'm interested in viewpoints based on actual experience with such barrels, and in the interest of brevity, am asking about rifle barrels only. I deliberately chose to post this on the forum, because I think others might be interested in such questions, and PM responses would deny them any resulting info.

Greg </div></div>

the mandrel dimensions can be controlled to the gnats, but there is a lot more going on with that process..You're now depending on the mandrel being perfectly centered parallel to the axis of that bore throughout the length of the tube when the hammers are smacking the outside. You're depending on the initial preparation being absolutely perfect before the blank goes into the machine so you can center the mandrel. You're depending a lot of the homogenity of the steel, the chemistry, the uniformity of hardness throughout the diameter along the length..It's a lot to ask that they would be any sort of precision light bulb, but I'm sure there are some great HF barrels out there that might keep up.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">did anybody really explain the pros and cons of the different grooves? Choices for the type of shooting etc; </div></div>

No. There's a reason no one explained it.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

ok i was told years ago the key is ''helical accuracy'' -its over looked by many people and with the ''finish'' as well .
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

what you don't want is the twist to slow towards the muzzle. If that's what you mean by helical accuracy. If you didn't know what helical accuracy meant when you were told that, well it's a new term for me too.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

There are no pro's or con's to the number of grooves.

The reason the are made with different numbers is usually based on manufacturing process more than anything.
 
Re: 3,4,5,6,8 groove barrels

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about land/groove shape or angle? </div></div>
THAT is a point to be looked at. I talked to one of the gurus in depth and trust me, it will be the next "shit why didn't I think of that" things from all of the barrel makers.