.30-06 as a precision rifle ?
- Thread starter SWThomas
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.30-06 as a precision rifle ?
There is a thread somewhere on here where guys were taking an 06 fairly close to 300 wm speeds. Pretty impressive considering magnum-nonmagnum.
Edit: found it.. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...remember-great-30-06-debate-10-years-ago.html
There is a thread somewhere on here where guys were taking an 06 fairly close to 300 wm speeds. Pretty impressive considering magnum-nonmagnum.
Edit: found it.. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...remember-great-30-06-debate-10-years-ago.html
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that i because the 308 loads are being pushed way past published max
30-06 published loads are designed to be safe for 100 + year old rifles
for modern brass / rifles there is lots of room to push hotter 30-06 loads but far less info
Didn't consider that point, but i can see that. I know some long range varmint shooters useing a 6.5 06 ackley improved.
In my mind, right or wrong, the 06 seems to shine slinging big heavy slugs at game.
Precision 30-06...not tactical, but purpose built for precision all the same.
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You might browse this gentleman's site for answers/insight. BB
The Rifleman's Journal: Cartridges: Accuracy Secrets of the .30-06 - Part 1
The Rifleman's Journal: Cartridges: Accuracy Secrets of the .30-06 - Part 1
I'm having one built now, in fact. 32" Krieger Barrel, going for the 30.06 Akley Improved chamber.
Don't have time to read the threads suggested here right now, but I will be back for them. Thanks guys for the ideas.
Don't have time to read the threads suggested here right now, but I will be back for them. Thanks guys for the ideas.
I love the 30-06, and have considered working on one for a precision build. I'm always on the lookout for an affordable Remington 30-06 action to build from. Very interesting articles posted from the Rifleman' Journel... gave me a bit of a spark to start intensifying my research.
Here's my $.02, I think most folks think that if you're going to go with a long action, why not go with a magnum?
I personally love the venerable .30-06.
I personally love the venerable .30-06.
Short answer: the 30.06 IS the poor man's magnum....
Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed
I have a couple of 30-06's. Heavy precision rig, 22", 208 AMax 2700 fps. Sporter, 20", 208 AMax 2650 fps.
A 32-incher will likely be able to start the 208/210/215gr class bullets at 2900 fps.
A 32-incher will likely be able to start the 208/210/215gr class bullets at 2900 fps.
Basically this, plus the fact that the ballistic gains are not enough to make a long action worth it. Hunters love it to death though.
Yeah, Montana, I figured using Long's OBT calculations that I should have a good node around 2900 with the 208's..... Using RL-25 or RL-33. H1000 looked a good choice too.
I don't understand the thinking behind your comment, nuclear, about the long action not being worth it..... You mean the couple extra ounces weight??
Starting with a 30.06, if I don't get desired results, a new barrel and a little bolt work, I can convert to a magnum. However, done right, I can come within 100-150FPS of magnum speeds with a 30.06. I say that just because it says magnum, doesn't mean it's better.
Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed
I don't understand the thinking behind your comment, nuclear, about the long action not being worth it..... You mean the couple extra ounces weight??
Starting with a 30.06, if I don't get desired results, a new barrel and a little bolt work, I can convert to a magnum. However, done right, I can come within 100-150FPS of magnum speeds with a 30.06. I say that just because it says magnum, doesn't mean it's better.
Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed
RL25, RL33, and H1000 may be too slow burning for best performance in the 30-06(AI). A few of us that have been shooting the 208/210s in the 30-06 have done well with around 60gr RL22 in the standard 30-06 case. In my rifle that load was giving me 2800 fps at 26.5" bbl. I cut to 22", braked, and am getting 2720 fps in summer.
I also use RL17 under moly'd 208s. 2700 fps (summer) via 55gr in Win brass.
Good luck on your rifle build. Looking forward to hearing about your results with a 32" bbl.
I also use RL17 under moly'd 208s. 2700 fps (summer) via 55gr in Win brass.
Good luck on your rifle build. Looking forward to hearing about your results with a 32" bbl.
Id like to see someone with a .308 launch a 190 grain bullet at 2900 fps from a 22 inch barrel. I was doing it with no signs of pressure with naked bullets! Thanks to MM,USSR and others for opening my eyes up to the good 'ol .06!
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Thanks for the input. Of course real world testing will trump computer calculations, but for OBT,y experience real world with the 338LM I have seems to like the "too slow" powders in the long barrel. I'm getting best velocity for a given OBT node from RL-50 in a 338LM-34" barrel. I know retumbo and H1000 are go to powders for most folks in a 338LM, but for the OBT calcs, the RL33 and RL-50 both get slightly faster velocities on a given OBT node.
It should be an interesting journey, and I'll gladly give honest results as I obtain them, so we'll just wait to see what happens.
I will keep your suggestions in mind, and probably try some of your ideas for powders as time allows.
Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed
if the 30-06 was announced today it would be called the 308 super magnum and they would be selling like hotcakes, but it is over 100 years old so it is treated like yesterdays newspaper.
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This made me chuckle, in today's flashy advertising, it is the sad truth.....
I am falling in love with the 30-06, plan on building/buying one next summer. Pretty excited about it.
OK who will be the first to have their barrel marked 308 Super Magnum lol or 308 RUM, maybe have the Capt Morgan guy engraved too, hmmm
I'll do it. But I'll have it engraved with quotes around it so as not to be confusing.
What's the heaviest profile barrel you guys would get for a hunting rifle? I'm thinking Bartlein #4 or 5.
I think I'm going to build me a precision 7.62x63mm, and have the barrel stamped with that. Is that cool or what?
You'll never find ammo though...that'd make for fun trips to the store for sure, tell them see here it is
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I only became a serious rifle shooter in the mid '90's, with the arrival if my DCM Garand. A couple of years later, I went with a Win 70 .30-'06 sporter in an ancient B&C stock, on a Harris BR bipod. I took it to some 300yd paper 'Sniper Matches' and ended up sharing 3rd with a pickup shooter in the 1997 NJ State Sniper Championship event. I'm sure that proves something, but the exact nature of that 'something' still eludes me to this day.
German Salazar has warranted my highest degree of respect since back when Snipers' Hide had another name (The LowLight Directive)} and a completely different site format.
My days as a Long Range competitor are probably all past, ditto the N/M National Match course High Power. I shoot from a bench these days, at distances that make the .30-'06 a huge overstatement of ballistic capability, and my recoil sensitivity reaches Biblical and Legendary proportion.
For my purposes, match winning accuracy is not part of my program. I shoot for fun, and to keep my hand inside the 'practical accuracy' cookie jar.
I shoot a SAAMI chamber, use Rem/Chester brass, big name bullets in the 168-175gr range for the Winchester, and 150 or 155gr bullets in the Garand, IMR -4064, and WLR primers. I partial neck size for the former, and F/L resize just about 1/8" longer than a true F/L resizing for the Garand with an occasional shoulder bump every 3rd or 4th loading (not that I shoot my Garand a whole lot anyway). Both of my '06 rifles have 1:10" twist rates.
Were I to build my own .30-'06 for LR, it would have a relatively heavy contour barrel, being 30" long with a 1:12" twist, a SAAMI dimension chamber with a .344" no-turn neck diameter, a single shot Savage custom action, and a BR style flat/flat and parallel bottom, possibly of my own design and construction (wood).
But my real preference would be for the a 30" long, 1:9" twist .280 SAAMI/no turn chambered barrel, shooting 168SMK's. I think this chambering allows higher BC's from lighter weight bullets, probably shoots flatter, and gets the whole ballistics thing done with a bit less huffin' an' puffin'. Recoil should be less than shooting a 200gr '06, the thought of which I find crazy daunting.
I love the .30-'06 with an undying passion, but I also have the .280 and I think it's a better use of the overall case capacity at the same basic tasks.
Greg
German Salazar has warranted my highest degree of respect since back when Snipers' Hide had another name (The LowLight Directive)} and a completely different site format.
My days as a Long Range competitor are probably all past, ditto the N/M National Match course High Power. I shoot from a bench these days, at distances that make the .30-'06 a huge overstatement of ballistic capability, and my recoil sensitivity reaches Biblical and Legendary proportion.
For my purposes, match winning accuracy is not part of my program. I shoot for fun, and to keep my hand inside the 'practical accuracy' cookie jar.
I shoot a SAAMI chamber, use Rem/Chester brass, big name bullets in the 168-175gr range for the Winchester, and 150 or 155gr bullets in the Garand, IMR -4064, and WLR primers. I partial neck size for the former, and F/L resize just about 1/8" longer than a true F/L resizing for the Garand with an occasional shoulder bump every 3rd or 4th loading (not that I shoot my Garand a whole lot anyway). Both of my '06 rifles have 1:10" twist rates.
Were I to build my own .30-'06 for LR, it would have a relatively heavy contour barrel, being 30" long with a 1:12" twist, a SAAMI dimension chamber with a .344" no-turn neck diameter, a single shot Savage custom action, and a BR style flat/flat and parallel bottom, possibly of my own design and construction (wood).
But my real preference would be for the a 30" long, 1:9" twist .280 SAAMI/no turn chambered barrel, shooting 168SMK's. I think this chambering allows higher BC's from lighter weight bullets, probably shoots flatter, and gets the whole ballistics thing done with a bit less huffin' an' puffin'. Recoil should be less than shooting a 200gr '06, the thought of which I find crazy daunting.
I love the .30-'06 with an undying passion, but I also have the .280 and I think it's a better use of the overall case capacity at the same basic tasks.
Greg
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3006 is a great round and once fired brass is pretty much free just go to the range after the opener of deer season and dig threw the garbage, Its amazing how much brass bubba will throw away, and how many shots it takes him to get sighted in.
I think weight really does help with recoil. My rig weighs 12.5 lbs (empty mag) with out glass or can mounted. My rifle recoils less then all of my shooting partners similar built .308s. My m24 barrel weighs more then their # 5&6 shilens. You can watch the target through the recoil with my rifle but cant with theirs and they are shooting 168s. Mine is a pussy cat with the can on or off...
Love the 30-06!
Picked up two rifles this year chambered in the '06...one is an AR-based 30-06 (BN-36) and the other a savage model 112 BVSS.
One rifle (the AR) will serve as my hunting rifle while the bolt gun will serve as my precision rig for NRA Long range matches (Fired prone at 1,000yards).
For the 30-06 to take off two things needs to happen.
1. An ammo maker needs to put out a variety of 30-06 match ammo loaded to modern SAAMI spec (62,000psi - 65,000psi)
2. A rifle maker needs to build 30-06 precision rigs.
Honestly, just the first needs to happen and i believe #2 will come into play. Hornady has a line of superformance ammo, but its largely marketed as hunting ammo...I think if hornady also pushed these as target ammo, it would make a difference.
Since these are unlikely to happen, the 30-06 is likely to remain a hidden gem discoverable by reloaders with knowledge of ballistics.
Picked up two rifles this year chambered in the '06...one is an AR-based 30-06 (BN-36) and the other a savage model 112 BVSS.
One rifle (the AR) will serve as my hunting rifle while the bolt gun will serve as my precision rig for NRA Long range matches (Fired prone at 1,000yards).
For the 30-06 to take off two things needs to happen.
1. An ammo maker needs to put out a variety of 30-06 match ammo loaded to modern SAAMI spec (62,000psi - 65,000psi)
2. A rifle maker needs to build 30-06 precision rigs.
Honestly, just the first needs to happen and i believe #2 will come into play. Hornady has a line of superformance ammo, but its largely marketed as hunting ammo...I think if hornady also pushed these as target ammo, it would make a difference.
Since these are unlikely to happen, the 30-06 is likely to remain a hidden gem discoverable by reloaders with knowledge of ballistics.
Rifle weight...
Not enough is just as bad as too much in my opinion.
My rifle was built as a "precision hunter"...it weighs 9 lbs. 5 oz. fully loaded (5 rounds) and ready to hunt.
Light enough to carry, heavy enough to shoot.
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Not enough is just as bad as too much in my opinion.
My rifle was built as a "precision hunter"...it weighs 9 lbs. 5 oz. fully loaded (5 rounds) and ready to hunt.
Light enough to carry, heavy enough to shoot.
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I'll play
SAC built 30-06
7 shots at 100 yards 208 amax 2650fps
Darn those pesky fliers... Excellent shooting, and nice looking build.
Another 30.06 fan here. I've been planning a custom precision rifle in '06 for 30years.
I'll be starting on it next year.
I'll be starting on it next year.
Frogman,
Please fill us in on ur load that pushes 208s at 2650fps.
Also, how is the recoil on that? is this something you can shoot 70rds of in a match at 22 rounds in a seating?
Regards,
Please fill us in on ur load that pushes 208s at 2650fps.
Also, how is the recoil on that? is this something you can shoot 70rds of in a match at 22 rounds in a seating?
Regards,
26" brux 1:10 MTU
lapua brass
H4350 53.5gr
Hornady 208gr Amax
.020" off the lands
I also get similar results with Ramshot Hunter but I haven't tested it's temperature stability/velocity changes yet. Velocity is about the same.
You can load the 208 hotter, but this is where the best accuracy is for this particular rifle. Quickload estimates somewhere around 57kpsi. I've got somewhere around 10 loadings on the brass and primer pockets are still tight. No signs or brass wearing out yet.
Rifle without the can weighs around 17lbs all loaded up. It's pretty heavy to tote around. If I did it over again, I'd probably go with a medium palma contour. That being said, with or without the can the rifle shoots the same and is very comfortable either way. I don't notice the recoil, and as strange as it seems I actually prefer the recoil characteristics of the rifle without the can. It just feels different, a little sharper but ends quicker. I don't shoot matches (yet...) but I imagine it would be fairly comfortable to shoot 70 rounds. When I shoot my first match I'll let you know
lapua brass
H4350 53.5gr
Hornady 208gr Amax
.020" off the lands
I also get similar results with Ramshot Hunter but I haven't tested it's temperature stability/velocity changes yet. Velocity is about the same.
You can load the 208 hotter, but this is where the best accuracy is for this particular rifle. Quickload estimates somewhere around 57kpsi. I've got somewhere around 10 loadings on the brass and primer pockets are still tight. No signs or brass wearing out yet.
Rifle without the can weighs around 17lbs all loaded up. It's pretty heavy to tote around. If I did it over again, I'd probably go with a medium palma contour. That being said, with or without the can the rifle shoots the same and is very comfortable either way. I don't notice the recoil, and as strange as it seems I actually prefer the recoil characteristics of the rifle without the can. It just feels different, a little sharper but ends quicker. I don't shoot matches (yet...) but I imagine it would be fairly comfortable to shoot 70 rounds. When I shoot my first match I'll let you know
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Following the example of the .280 Remington, I'd suggest '.308 Express' or '7.62 Express'.
With Rem .30-'06 brass, 150/155SMK loaded to M2 Ball OAL, 50.0gr IMR-4064.; for M1 Garand.
With Rem .30-'06 brass, 175SMK loaded to M2 Ball OAL, 48.0gr IMR-4064; for M1 Garand.
With Rem .280 brass, 150gr Nosler Ballistic tip loaded to SAAMI max OAL, 55.0gr (Note, edited from H-4350>>>)H-4831SC, for 26" 1:9" M77 MK1 Varmint.
Having used Ramshot Tac, Magnum, and Hunter in .260, I'd suggest the H-4350 (an Extreme and SC powder) will have the better temp stability.
Temp stability, regardless of the brand, gets iffy when the load sits in a hot chamber for any more time than is necessary to aim and fire without unneeded delay.
When shooting in a match, I single feed and simply lay the round in the end of the chamber so the shoulder is resting on the chamber mouth with the bolt closed only enough to permit the standard cheek weld. When all the NPA/breathing part of the firing sequence is done, I complete closing the bolt and complete the firing sequence. This way, the brass case gets minimal contact with the chamber, and minimal heat is transferred before the bolt gets closed.
Greg
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Plentiful cheap/free bass was the tipping point of the 06 vs 300 win-mag debate my son and I had when we built our 30-06.
Precision 30-06...not tactical, but purpose built for precision all the same.
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Ridgerunner665,
Interested in specs on your build...looks like Win 70? I have a Win 670 I am thinking about doing something similar with for a practical rifle.
Countour and length?
Stock?
Thanks!
The barrel is factory...I was gonna rebarrel it to 280AI and go full custom...but that factory barrel shoots so good I changed my mind...it is 24"...I might do the 280 when I do have to rebarrel it...but I think I may just go 30-06 AI.
The stock is a McMillan...the Winchester Supergrade model.
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I should have said started to build. It has kinda stalled due to our gun budget going toward hi-caps and AR-15s as the ban hype was ramping up and recently too good to pass optic deals have been coming my way.
Not much to look at anyway, it's a $800 budget build around a savage 110 long action, Douglas barrel, Sharp Shooter Supply trigger, and Bell and Carlson stock.
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I just noticed this thread . My first long range rifle I had built was a 30-06 built on a Sako action in a McMillan Win Marksman stock . Shot great and recoil is very mild . I'm selling it - see 30-06 tactical rifle in the 'firearms for sale ' section .
david
david
Poor? Hell! That setup cost me about $6,000!
It sports a 28" Bartlein Remington Varmint Contour barrel and is blasting 190 Grain Moly's that average 2975 FPS with 62.5 grains of RL22 in fire-formed Winchester brass...
Who needs a 300 WM when you can do that with a 30-06?
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