300 WSM issues. Need help badly

[Heat]

Ok, I've got a Rem 700 300 WSM. I've been loading with Winchester brass (annealed), 64.0gr H4350, 208 Amax, Federal LR Mag Primers. So far all of my reloads have been with annealed virgin Win brass. Same lot of powder, bullets and primers. OAL is 3.080".

Ok, I've shot this load in a match at TVP a couple weeks ago with absolutely no issues. Shot it last week at a friends house with no issues. Went to Rayner's Range for a match today with the exact same reloads and had sticky bolt lift and/or had to beat the bolt open on every shot. It shows high pressure signs (flattened primers, ejector marks on the headstamp). Couldn't finish the match today because I didn't want to tear anything up. I've shot in 85+ deg weather with this load with no problems and today it was around 70 deg. The only theory I had was a different lot of powder, but I checked when I got home and it's the same. I cleaned the rifle before I went to the match, so there wasn't any powder build up in the chamber. I also wondered if I had too much oil in the gun, so after the first stage I ran some dry patches but it didn't help out any.

I'm at a loss guys. Any suggestions? I'm about to lose it.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

The only thing I can come up with... and this is a stretch... If you're using a digital scale, could it be out of calibration?

 

[Heat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

I'm using a RCBS I beam scale.

 

[hugo121175]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

Uggg..... Doesn't sound good.....
Did you reload all of the ammo on the same day? I had an issue were I had pre-set my dies over the winter, (Reloading table is in my basement. Very Cold... About 55 to 60 degrees) and then over the spring I had to re-set the lock-rings on my dies due to expansion and contraction. It sounds like a very minor amount of change, but it was enough to cause the same problem for my M70.

 

[Heat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uggg..... Doesn't sound good.....
Did you reload all of the ammo on the same day? I had an issue were I had pre-set my dies over the winter, (Reloading table is in my basement. Very Cold... About 55 to 60 degrees) and then over the spring I had to re-set the lock-rings on my dies due to expansion and contraction. It sounds like a very minor amount of change, but it was enough to cause the same problem for my M70. </div></div>

yeah, it was all reloaded before I went to TVP a couple weeks ago. Is there some kind of rifle failure that could cause this? I mean do I need to take it to a 'smith and have it checked before I do anything else? I was going to go to the range and chrono the last few rounds I have and see if the velocities are higher than usual.

 

[hugo121175]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

You can try to post this topic in the gunsmitty section, and see if you get a hit from it. The only thing I could figure is maybe a build up of case lube in your chamber. Did you clean your finished rounds? This too can be a problem.

 

[gliechty]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

How many rounds do you have down the barrel? Did you develope the load with new brass, and are you on fired brass now? (loads in new brass do not always show pressure signs as soon as once fired brass does.)

The reason I ask, is that if your throat decided to go, it could cause pressure problems. The soft jackets on the AMAX are not good with worn throats.

The easiest way to check the throat short of getting the barrel bore scoped is, put a very tight patch on the rod, and see if it gets hard to push anywhere in your barrel, mostly just in front of the chamber.

Other than the throat, start over with your load development, and get a new safe load.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

Why would you anneal virgin brass?

 

[Black-X]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

Hey man, I've been thinking since we talked earlier this evening. What are the chances that the humidity came into play today causing the pressure problems? I'm guessing that you were close to the line on your rifle/load and maybe the extra moisture in the air was enough to cause a slight elevation in pressure?

Just a guess but until recently it's been fairly dry around here.

-X

 

[Heat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can try to post this topic in the gunsmitty section, and see if you get a hit from it. The only thing I could figure is maybe a build up of case lube in your chamber. Did you clean your finished rounds? This too can be a problem. </div></div>

I actually resize, deprime, clean the primer pocket THEN tumble my brass. I know it's kind of backwards but that's how I do it. I don't see how there could be any lube on the cases.

 

[Heat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LiteTac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many rounds do you have down the barrel? Did you develope the load with new brass, and are you on fired brass now? (loads in new brass do not always show pressure signs as soon as once fired brass does.)

The reason I ask, is that if your throat decided to go, it could cause pressure problems. The soft jackets on the AMAX are not good with worn throats.

The easiest way to check the throat short of getting the barrel bore scoped is, put a very tight patch on the rod, and see if it gets hard to push anywhere in your barrel, mostly just in front of the chamber.

Other than the throat, start over with your load development, and get a new safe load.

</div></div>

I bought he gun used and was told only 200 rounds were fired. I took it to my smith to borescope and he said it looked brand new. I've only put about another 200 through it, so about 400 total I guess. Everything I've shot is with new brass. I only have 2 rounds left that are loaded with new brass.

I realize that I can just work up a new load but I shouldn't have to. I would like to at least figure out why a load that has been working suddenly is unstable.

 

[Heat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would you anneal virgin brass? </div></div>

read this.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...131#Post1679131

 

[Heat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Black-X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey man, I've been thinking since we talked earlier this evening. What are the chances that the humidity came into play today causing the pressure problems? I'm guessing that you were close to the line on your rifle/load and maybe the extra moisture in the air was enough to cause a slight elevation in pressure?

Just a guess but until recently it's been fairly dry around here.

-X </div></div>

I don't know man, I guess it's a possibility. I don't know what the humidity was up to yesterday though.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stovetop357</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would you anneal virgin brass? </div></div>

read this.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...131#Post1679131 </div></div>

You do know that they are annealed from the factory. Just that they tumble the brass to make it uniform in color.

 

[Heat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stovetop357</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would you anneal virgin brass? </div></div>

read this.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...131#Post1679131 </div></div>

You do know that they are annealed from the factory. Just that they tumble the brass to make it uniform in color. </div></div>

Didnt know that, but you saw what was happening with new brass. I annealed 150 pieces of new brass and have shot 148 of them and have no case failures now. I was told to anneal it and works now, I can't explain it.

 

[bohem]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stovetop357</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Didnt know that, but you saw what was happening with new brass. I annealed 150 pieces of new brass and have shot 148 of them and have no case failures now. I was told to anneal it and works now, I can't explain it. </div></div>

Not everything gets annealed, and if it sits around in a temperature swing environment (unheated building) it "ages" just like AL does.

Unless it has the annealing marks on it still, then there's nothing wrong with annealing it again.

I've seen factory Winchester ammo split the neck on the first firing. It bothered me as well til we talked to the Winchester CS people and the guy said that the nickel cases in WSM have a tendency to do it if the ammo is more than a year old. Between the nickel and the thick necks it's easier to crack it.

As far as your issues with the pressure loads, did you switch primers?

The other thing it could be is a seating depth change. If the load is compressed initially, you let it sit for a couple weeks and the bullet backed out of the case and it's now touching the lands or jamming the lands, you'll see a pressure spike. I found this out the hard way with 30-06 cases that were stuffed with RL22 and a 208 Amax.

I loaded them on a Friday night, shot on Saturday no issues. The same batch of ammo shot the next weekend in almost identical weather (5*F warmer) was making extractor grooves expand. I measured the COAL and it had grown 15 thousandths.

 

[Heat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

Primers are the same. I've never heard of that before, if anything mine would be shorter as they are stored in the bullet up postion. I checked the few I left when I got home and they were fine.

As black-x posted above about the humidity, I checked the hour by hour weather for yesterday and it was up in the 80% humidity range around the times I shot. That's the only logical theory I buy right now. I guess I need to get back out in similiar conditions and shoot. I'm probably at the edge of unstable in normal conditions but the humidity pushed me on over. I guess I'm going to have to back my load down a little bit unfortunately.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

I didn't notice the "Case Trimming" step in the description of your case prepping process. Maybe you just neglected to mention it? Of course you know that when you re-size you generally need to trim. Not always, but generally. If cases are too long they will definitely cause over-pressure issues.

 

[Heat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't notice the "Case Trimming" step in the description of your case prepping process. Maybe you just neglected to mention it? Of course you know that when you re-size you generally need to trim. Not always, but generally. If cases are too long they will definitely cause over-pressure issues. </div></div>

I measured the new brass before I reloaded it, it was all fine. I measured the once fired brass and it didn't grow out of spec but I trimmed enough to true up the mouth of the case

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stovetop357</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't notice the "Case Trimming" step in the description of your case prepping process. Maybe you just neglected to mention it? Of course you know that when you re-size you generally need to trim. Not always, but generally. If cases are too long they will definitely cause over-pressure issues. </div></div>

I measured the new brass before I reloaded it, it was all fine. I measured the once fired brass and it didn't grow out of spec but I trimmed enough to true up the mouth of the case </div></div>
I figured as much... I was just grasping at straws. Anyway, I hope you figure it out and it's not an expensive fix!

John

 

[colt933]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stovetop357</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never heard of that before, if anything mine would be shorter as they are stored in the bullet up postion. I checked the few I left when I got home and they were fine.
</div></div>

He's not talking about gravity here.

He's talking about the compressed powder in the case pushing the bullet back out of the case.

 

[Heat]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: colt933</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stovetop357</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never heard of that before, if anything mine would be shorter as they are stored in the bullet up postion. I checked the few I left when I got home and they were fine.
</div></div>

He's not talking about gravity here.

He's talking about the compressed powder in the case pushing the bullet back out of the case. </div></div>

Oh ok! I was wondering what he meant. My load isn't compressed though. Thanks for the clarification though. My 308 load is compressed, I've never had any issues but I'll check them now

 

[bohem]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stovetop357</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: colt933</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stovetop357</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never heard of that before, if anything mine would be shorter as they are stored in the bullet up postion. I checked the few I left when I got home and they were fine.
</div></div>

He's not talking about gravity here.

He's talking about the compressed powder in the case pushing the bullet back out of the case. </div></div>

Oh ok! I was wondering what he meant. My load isn't compressed though. Thanks for the clarification though. My 308 load is compressed, I've never had any issues but I'll check them now </div></div>

Colt nailed it, I wasn't watching the thread to clarify for you quicker.

Load a couple and let them sit on the shelf for a week. Measure them at 12hr, 24hr, 48hr, and 96 hr since you loaded them. More than likely you'll see a change in 12hr, almost always in 24hr.

When I was working up a pretty well compressed 30-06 load I had to do this. At 60.5gr of RL22 under the 208 Amax's my OAL changed by 25 thou the day after I loaded them. At 59.5gr I get the best accuracy and no change after 6 months of a round sitting on the shelf.

You just have to check the OAL to verify if it changed.

 

[mgoodrich]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

Was your ammo exposed to any extreme temperature range between those times you noticed the problem?

When I shot pdogs on a regular basis, I left a box of ammo inside the cab of the truck. It probably got up to ~ 120 degrees F that day, with it being 130 to 140 in the cab. The next day when I shot that box (much cooler then) I was seeing pressure signs with that ammo alone.

I later found an article (can't find it now though) where this guy claimed that the ntiro will outgas inside the shell when temp get above 130 (if I remenber right). When it cools down it will go back into the powder grains but in an inconsistent way, creating an inconsitent burn as well.

To me that explained what I had happen to my loads (was using H380 in a 220 swift).

I don't know if that happenned to you, but that hadn't been brought up yet.

 

[keithtb1]

Re: 300 WSM issues. Need help badly

Go to the gunsmithing section. I had the same thing happen to me. I purchased a rifle with 800 rounds fired (300WM) and fired 250 rounds all FGMM, and I started experiencing the same thing. I could not work the bolt back after firing a round (in FEB.) and ended up sending it to RWSGunsmithing (here on the hide) and had him rebarrel it and true the action. He could probably tell you after doing mine what was going on. Hope to have it back this week. If you call him, let him know its the 300WM he is doing for DKSD39. Good Luck.