F T/R Competition 308 AI.... really?

XTR

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  • Sep 4, 2010
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    So here I am browsing the stuff that's on "the list" over on The Shooters Corner, I get down at the bottom in the reamers and there in the list is a 308 Ackley.

    There is a corner of my head that can't get around the idea that someone is/was looking for an edge in F-TR. I'm probably wrong, but when I saw it it was the first thing that popped into my head, am I too cynical?
     

    gstaylorg

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?

    I would ask whether this round would actually be legal under F-T/R rules? I'm not sure how the Ackley stacks up under the following provision.

    From the NRA Fullbore 2011 Rulebook (Section 22 F-Class Rifle Rules):

    "(b) F-Class Target (F-T/R) - A rifle restricted to the chambers of <span style="color: #FF0000">unmodified</span> .308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO or
    <span style="color: #FF0000">unmodified</span> .223 Remington/5/56mm x 45 NATO cartridge cases. The rifle must be fired off a bipod, rigidly
    attached to the rifle’s forend, and/or a sling. Any bipod, meeting the definition of a bipod, may be used but its
    weight must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. Any safe, manually operated trigger is permitted. Any
    sighting system is permitted , but it must be included in the rifle’s overall weight."

    You may well be right that the intended purpose was to gain an edge in F-T/R, but I suspect there are better ways to do that and remain within the limitations of the above rules.
     

    XTR

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?

    It's not legal. If someone is using one in F-TR then it's cheating, which is why I'm being cynical to think that is what its intended use, but that is the first thing that crossed my mind when I saw it.
     

    milanuk

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?

    The .308 Ackley was around looooong before F-Class was even thought of... so to paraphrase, possession of said reamer doesn't necessarily imply intent to violate the rules for F/TR.

    That said, I'm a firm believer that more clubs that hold large, well attended F-class matches where there is more than a few dollars and/or local bragging rights involved - and certainly any that are hosting any sort of Registered match - should invest a couple bucks in a pair of Wilson case gauges for .223 Rem and .308 Win. If spent cases won't fit in said case gauges, you have a problem. Otherwise... keep calm and carry on
    wink.gif
     

    USFTR

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?

    At the 2009 F-Class Nationals at Butner, I strongly advocated for checking chambers for the FTR group. It was denied. It was interesting at the 2010 FCNC that so many people didn't want to give up a piece of brass to enter the prize drawing. This really got me thinking.

    I strongly suspect some are cheating with slightly modified chambers (wide body angle, long headspace) to get that few more grains of powder into the case. I've also been told certain Norma brass does not have a headstamp and can be made to look like a .308Win. I have fully looked at the many ways I suspect people are cheating and I have found strong resistance at actually checking chambers. I agree with Monte on this one. I play 100% by the rules and I fully expect everyone else to also play by the rules. It is the obligation of each competitor to inform the match director if they know someone is using an illegal chamber (check out the NRA rules on this one).
     
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    79M1a-texas

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?

    What was the last match where the Match Director (MD) actually measured brass with a case gauge? Let's give kudos to those MD who are trying to stop the gaming. Is testing done overseas?
     

    Wild_Bill

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?

    This is why i only shoot Open even when i shoot my 308 i just nom up in open and shoot because i know what is allowed and that people are playing between the rules. Here they have butchered F Class standard they call it here and it is an open rifle in 308 with a 1kg trigger they are even allowed to have a spiked plate under the rear bag with a ledge on the back then place the rear bag inside a wodden box with packers in it so it can not slide of the back of the plate. it is interesting that the guy who was in charge of the rules shoots this way.

    I just hope common sence provails and we finaly start to have our exuiptment as per F TR but i dont think the 308AI reamer would have been ground for F TR as you can see from amile away that it is not a standard 308.

    Here you are restricted on powders and projectiles but you can have a throat as long as you like the same will be true there with regards to throat length so if you want to gain some capacity if you are shooting say a 208gr A Max just thraot the barrel and load the projectile out above the neck shoulder junction and you will gain a few grains of powder and be within the rules. also people can use any powder under ICFRA rules so high energy powder and a long throat will give you all the advantage you need because even if you can gain say 100fps you still have to be able to read the wind and that is where a lot of people fall in a hole.

    And yes here ammo is taken to check projectile and powder is correct ( although there are a few powders that could be substituted and look the same that give a big advantage int he 223 but can not be proved. if the case looked like it was not a standard 308 case then they would also get cought.

    In the World full bore champs last month here in Asutralia there was a sticky post note placed on the match directors cart on US paper stating that a US shooter was using 185gr Projectiles and you can only shoot up to 156gr in full bore so they swabbed him and other shooters next to him i will not give his name out so dont ask. the way they did it was totaly incorrect and IF they did find something out of place then they would have been screwed. it is also worth noting that the person that wrote the note did not place their name on the note so i would not have even followed it up but they did and it could have just beed a jeolous person playing games or it might have been true but when swabbed he was clean.



     

    AMMOWASTER

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">gaming the game.......kinda sad. </div></div>

    And like most things in life the ones cheating are rarely the top dogs.

    We as a society have put morality at the bottom of the list.
     

    gstaylorg

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?

    I agree...very sad. For me personally, anything won by cheating would have no value whatsoever.

    I also don't understand the reluctance for verification and/or oversight, particularly for the top competitors (but preferably all competitors). It would be very little trouble to check chambers and/or rounds.
     

    Tripwire

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So here I am browsing the stuff that's on "the list" over on The Shooters Corner, I get down at the bottom in the reamers and there in the list is a 308 Ackley.

    There is a corner of my head that can't get around the idea that someone is/was looking for an edge in F-TR. I'm probably wrong, but when I saw it it was the first thing that popped into my head, am I too cynical? </div></div>

    Lot's of things on that list, including at least one other AI reamer, 223AI I think it was.....what's cynical is assuming a 308 is used only for F-TR, and that a 308AI must then be only used for cheating at F-TR.

    Some peeple.......
     

    milanuk

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also don't understand the reluctance for verification and/or oversight, particularly for the top competitors (but preferably all competitors). It would be very little trouble to check chambers and/or rounds. </div></div>

    The odd thing is the reluctance of match officials to even consider it.

    Having run a few small matches here locally, I have an inkling of the time and trouble people running a match generally go thru. I'll admit, for our local Approved matches, I don't generally bring out the scale or gauges - though I may start, after this.

    The subject has been brought up as Jeff mentioned, in 2009 prior to FCNC @ Butner, and then again this year prior to FCNC @ Lodi. 2010 they were all in a lather over bipods and the board/plate under the gun, and more than willing to measure *that*. @ Lodi I think the most traction we got was the match officials agreeing to let the word be put out that any one interested in being on the US F/TR team should volunteer a piece of brass for checking - which a bunch of people happily did. No one failed, to my knowledge.

    Still wondering why more match directors having Registered matches i.e. state, regional or national championships - don't proactively check this stuff. The Canadians check trigger weight @ the BC rifle championships - this is no different.
     

    scaxeman

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?



    At Nationals in Lodi last month, I did end up checking fired brass from virtually all of the F-T/R competitors. No one failed. There was initially some discussion with the match officials about whether or not to check competitor's brass. Their position (and there is some validity here) was that they did not want to get to a point where the rule book was 3 feet thick, with 170 odd competitors. They did agree to let people "voluntarily" check their brass with either myself or Mike Miller. To people's credit, when they saw that we were checking, almost all of the competitors came up and let me check.

    I will be working with the NRA to make the brass checks mandatory for future Nationals (and World Championships when they are in the US). This is another way to make sure that the level playing field that most people get into F-T/R for, STAYS level. Pursuant to this, we also need to make sure that the scales used to weigh the rifles are properly calibrated. It was widely rumored that the scales used in Lodi were VERY generous (I think I could have driven my truck onto the weighing pan and it would have weighed in at less than 8.25 Kg!) LOL.

    I do sympathize with the match directors, it IS a hassle to do all of the checks. With the top end of the F-T/R field getting so competitive though, the temptation to modify a chamber, or run a heavy rifle to gain that 1-2% advantage will be getting much stronger. Keeping the discipline a pure shooter vs. shooter game, instead of an equipment gaming contest is in everyone's interests. To get an idea how close the field is, the top 15 places in F-T/R this year had less than 2% difference in score.

    Good Shooting,

    Darrell
     

    gstaylorg

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    Re: 308 AI.... really?

    I'm glad to hear you're a strong advocate for ensuring that the competitors adhere to the rules. In the matches at my (former) local range, F-T/R and F-Open were lumped together in terms of placement and awards due to the smaller overall number of competitors in F-class relative to the other classes. So I know what it's like going against shooters with front rests and calibers with much higher MVs and flatter trajectories. Of course now that I moved away, they've decided to hold F-class as a separate event next season. Looks like some more plane rides are in order (LOL).

    In any event, it seems odd to me that simple oversight of <span style="font-style: italic">existing</span> rules would be perceived as potentially leading to a 3 ft thick rule book, but I'll take your word for it. Definite thanks from me for your efforts to keep this sport clean; it makes it better for everyone involved!
     

    suberjc

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    At Nationals in Lodi last month, I did end up checking fired brass from virtually all of the F-T/R competitors. No one failed. There was initially some discussion with the match officials about whether or not to check competitor's brass. Their position (and there is some validity here) was that they did not want to get to a point where the rule book was 3 feet thick, with 170 odd competitors. They did agree to let people "voluntarily" check their brass with either myself or Mike Miller. To people's credit, when they saw that we were checking, almost all of the competitors came up and let me check.

    I will be working with the NRA to make the brass checks mandatory for future Nationals (and World Championships when they are in the US). This is another way to make sure that the level playing field that most people get into F-T/R for, STAYS level. Pursuant to this, we also need to make sure that the scales used to weigh the rifles are properly calibrated. It was widely rumored that the scales used in Lodi were VERY generous (I think I could have driven my truck onto the weighing pan and it would have weighed in at less than 8.25 Kg!) LOL.

    I do sympathize with the match directors, it IS a hassle to do all of the checks. With the top end of the F-T/R field getting so competitive though, the temptation to modify a chamber, or run a heavy rifle to gain that 1-2% advantage will be getting much stronger. Keeping the discipline a pure shooter vs. shooter game, instead of an equipment gaming contest is in everyone's interests. To get an idea how close the field is, the top 15 places in F-T/R this year had less than 2% difference in score.

    Good Shooting,

    Darrell

    Interesting. This thread is 4 years old. About the time I started shooting F-Class. I haven't missed more than 3 monthly matches in 4 years. I've been to the Berger Nationals and multiple state and regional competitons all over the south. I've never directly observed anyone cheating that I'm aware of. As a matter of fact, in the same vein as the gentleman who said cheaters are never top shooters, I'd have to say that those who spend a great deal of time directly observing others for rules violations aren't top shooters either. We all have reasons for competing. Some of those reasons you can see on the leader board. Some go a bit deeper. It's hilarious that the mere existance of a 40 year old reamer caused this long winded service rifle-like discussion about cheating. I hope these guys are still on the list I'd love to read more.
     

    ryanjay11

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    Do you see the irony of bringing back a 4 year old thread to make light of someone else complaining about a 40 year old reamer?