308...OCW help

turbohardtop

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 1, 2010
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Austin, TX
I am trying to find an optimal load for my new rifle. Please let me know which load/group I should use as a reference to fine tuning. All loads are using LC brass, Varget, Wolf LR primer, and 168 AMAX. Also, the small squares are 1/2" grids. All groups are 4 shots to account for a flyer
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Re: 308...OCW help

44.5 looks to be the scatter node.

I like 44.0 best, but 45.5 looks good also.

Suggest that you survey the 44.0 range {43.8-44.2} and the 44.5 range {45.2-45.7} at 0.1 steps to fine tune the charge weight. Switch to 5-shot groups.

Watch for pressure signs.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">44.5 looks to be the scatter node.

I like 44.0 best, but 45.5 looks good also.

Suggest that you survey the 44.0 range {43.8-44.2} and the 44.5 range {45.2-45.7} at 0.1 steps to fine tune the charge weight. Switch to 5-shot groups.

Watch for pressure signs. </div></div>

This.

I'd do the 45.2-45.7, go with the best group, then play with seating depth to fine tune it. Unless you're not planning on shooting way out there, then I'd play with the 44.0gr charge and tune the seating depth.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

Thanks for the replies. The 44.5 grain had me puzzled a little why I was shooting so bad. It make sense that it is a scatter node especially that I was round robin from one load to the next. Would scatter node string more vertical instead of horizontal?
 
Re: 308...OCW help

Not necessarily. It depends on where the barrel is at in it's "whip" when the bullets leave. If it's climbing up, then the bullets will string vertically on the paper. The 44.5gr charge looks like it's leaving the barrel just before the barrel reaches the top of it's whip, causing the scatter to be left/right.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

turbohardtop,

Although there really is no right or wrong way to conduct an OCW load test, here are my views:

Your load increments are too large and your load range is too narrow. Meaning when your max and min charges are in the 42 gr to 46 grain region, your load increments should be 0.3 grains (about 0.7%) not 0.5 (1.1%). I save 0.5 grain increments when loading rounds via OCW over 60 grains case capacity

So if you followed the OCW method and starting at 44 grains, I would load three (not 4) rounds of each of: 44.0, 44.3, 44.6, 44.9, 45.2, 45.5, 45.8, 46.1 and finally 46.4 grains.

46.1 and 46.4 should bring you just over book max. Watching for pressure signs as you go up. The narrower load ranges makes finding your sweet spot, with the smallest expenditure of rounds.

Bob
 
Re: 308...OCW help

Thanks Bob. Do you think I should start over with your recommended range and load increments or should I stick with 44.0 grain and fine tune. I was able to get 3 shot into the single hole then the last shot I think I pulled it a little.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

Bob, if I was to find a node at 44.0 and 46.0 that shoots equally well at 100 yds, do you think it makes much difference for longer distances? Just trying to figure if it is worth the extra pressure. Thanks for all your comments.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">44.3 looks good to me, .3 higher AND lower charges grouped in same place,
So on face value I'd call that middle of a node.

</div></div>


Yep you've found your OCW, now it's time to tweak the seating depth in .005" increments to fine tune the load.
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ETA: looks like you have a scatter node at 45.5, you should have another accuracy node around 1.5% higher (confirmed by the 46.1gr target) if you want to push for some extra velocity. It may not be as broad of a node as the 44.3gr will be though.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D Ice 308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Move your target back to 300 yards and try again... </div></div>

What he said......

Y'all need to re-name this shit to something else, because what you're doing isn't OCW by the standards of OCW.

Frettin' over group size as if it's an indicator, half grain jumps in charge weight, 100 yard test ranges, etc.,............and "scatter nodes"?

Damn.........
 
Re: 308...OCW help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D Ice 308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Move your target back to 300 yards and try again... </div></div>

What he said......

Y'all need to re-name this shit to something else, because what you're doing isn't OCW by the standards of OCW.

Frettin' over group size as if it's an indicator, half grain jumps in charge weight, 100 yard test ranges, etc.,............and "scatter nodes"?

Damn......... </div></div>

huh?

44.3 looks good because 44-44.3-44.6 has the same POI and the middle of that is 44.3, which is why we reccomended 44.3, nobody said that one beacuse it's the tigthest group (and it isn't)

unless I misunderstood ya
 
Re: 308...OCW help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D Ice 308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Move your target back to 300 yards and try again... </div></div>

What he said......

Y'all need to re-name this shit to something else, because what you're doing isn't OCW by the standards of OCW.

Frettin' over group size as if it's an indicator, half grain jumps in charge weight, 100 yard test ranges, etc.,............and "scatter nodes"?

Damn......... </div></div>


Not trying to be a dick, but have you even read Dan Newberry's work on OCW load development? He specifically says it should be done at 100 yds to reduce environmental effects and shooter induced errors. Granted the OP should be running in .3gr increments, but the two nodes he has found are within .1-.2gr of known proven OCW loads with his powder/bullet combo.

No one said anything about his group size. Yes the group in the middle of the node is the smallest, but that's beside the point. It showed the same POI over a full grain of charge weight. If that's not the "low" node for that rifle, I'll suck my own ass. I'd bet money on it that if he didn't get pressure signs, there'd be another node between 45.9 and 46.5gr.

Not everyone does load development at 300+ yards, never saw that as a requirement for an accurate load.

ETA: Fine tuning the load at 300+ I agree with 110%.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

The biggest lesson to learn about OCW is not to shoot what you are aiming at. Dial up 5 min and don't look at the group. Better yet, make targets with multiple identical aiming points that you can shoot 1 round into each. Then you can cut them out and overlay them and find out the same info without the group thing. Same principle as Frank's 20 shot challenge target.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: 308...OCW help

Thanks for the discussion everyone. Every input is taken as positive criticism. Unfortunately, I do not have "convenience" access to ranges longer than 100 yards. There are some longer distance ranges a little out of town but my schedule do not allow for me to develop the load as quickly. If I find a good load for 100 yards over other loads, is it correct to say that it would shoot better at 300 yards?
 
Re: 308...OCW help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thespecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Not trying to be a dick, but have you even read Dan Newberry's work on OCW load development?</div></div>

Well you are, and yes I have, a LONG time ago....infact I live by the principles when developing a load.

Most of the swinging dicks throwing "OCW" around though, lately, obviously haven't read enough of it....and if they have it never sunk in. Which is obvious with all the "Is this my OCW?" threads. The criteria is there in Newberry's writings, clear as a bell.

Initial testing is fine at 100 yards, if you are good enough to actually shoot the difference, most aren't. I'd rather not waste my time or components, and would rather actually see a broader dispersion between charge weights, to make things clearer...that happens at ranges beyond 100. After all, when shooting .2 or .3 grain differences it's pretty easy to mis-read the feedback. 200 is my preference, and IIRC, Newberry talks about that too.

Maybe not this OP specifically, although he had to be corrected about his charge weights, but too much of the practical application of OCW gets lost in the translation. Too many get hung up on group size and forget all about what they are supposed to be trying to accomplish with sorting out the barrel harmonics. Too many can't wrap their mind around a set of not so small "groups" actually being the range of pressure that is infact the OCW.

Too many think your OCW should, by some freak law of physics, be their OCW.........

On aside, it seems like a perfect waste of effort to go through all the motions and only ever have 100 yards to shoot. Really, what's the point? For those guys, the whole entire range of powder charges would give plenty enough accuracy for just about anything.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

Tripwire...may be a dumb question but trying to learn...if at 100 yards and a load shows promising on a group even though this is using OCW, wouldn't this load also provide a better group/consistency at longer distances? Thanks for your inputs.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

Turbo, I did load / accuracy test for my rifle the same way as you did, buy shooting 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I used Varget powder , Hornady 178 HPBT and Lapua brass.
at 100 yards all groups looked the same(around 0.5 moa) from 43.0 to 45.0 gr of Varget. I thought 43.0 gr produced the tightest group at 100...When i moved my target back to 300 and i've got different results. The tightest groups were with 43.8 gr of Varget (0.25 to 0.5 moa) I shot same load In 600yd F-tr match from bipod and sand bag , scored 187-4X Guys at the match told me to try JLK and Berger bullets : )
 
Re: 308...OCW help

The purpose of the OCW is NOT to get the smallest group (that comes later) it is to get a string or series of "groups" that all have the same point of impact (POI) with various powder charges. This effort ensures that the vibrations in the barrel and action are farthest from the muzzle, providing POI stability. By choosing a powder charge near the center of this "flat spot" you begin to neutralize the effects of load variations, temperature variations and primer/case etc.... variations. With a sufficiently "wide" flat spot you can negate upwards of 60 - 80*F of temperature changes as well as the other inconsistencies noted above. The shooting is done at 100 yards in the most wind neutral spot I can find on the range.

I remain true to the "principle" of the OCW development but have tweeked my "process" a bit over the years.

1. I research and select powders that will give me near or slightly over 100% case capacity at charge weight. I have found that a full case provides significantly less extreme velocity spreads (ES). It cuts down on the noise.

2. I make my own OCW targets so that only 3 targets are on one piece of paper and those pieces of paper are hung horizontally no more than 3 8.5X11 pages wide to minimize the change to my natural point of aim and angle across the chrono during the string. I also set up these targets at home before I go to the range to ensure that they are all level and "plumb" in relation to each other. That way I'm not on the range with a level trying to get everything trued up.

3. I NEVER shoot at what I am aiming at. I dial up 3 - 5 MOA/IPHY or 1 Mil.

4. I shoot round robin ie. 43.0gr in target #1, 43.3gr in target #2, 43.6gr in target #3 etc......
I shoot them in sequence, Shot #1 = 43.0gr, Shot #2 = 43.3gr, Shot #3 = 43.6gr etc.....

5. I record my range observations for each shot in a data book. Did I pull it? Was the wind up? Did the sun go behind a cloud? etc... and plot each shot individually and record the velocity (I always do this over a chrono)

6. After I'm done I take the targets home and cut them apart so that I can lay them exactly over an identical blank target. Then I plot the center of the groups, taking into consideration the notes above. When I'm done I have a clean target with a bunch of dots that shows me pretty clearly where the flat spot is and how wide it is.

From this I pick my charge weight and load up 10 of them, and then start seating the bullet "IN" 0.010" at a time. Usually 3 seating steps.

Back to the range, round robin in the above manor again. Choose the best GROUP and I'm done. Go home, load ammo.

In the end I have expended 100 rounds +/- to ensure that I have premium ammo loaded for my rifle that is stable in a range of conditions with a significant quantity of velocity data points that will allow me to determine the true velocity of the end ammo.

Hope this helps, YRMV, IMHO etc.....

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: 308...OCW help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbohardtop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tripwire...may be a dumb question but trying to learn...if at 100 yards and a load shows promising on a group even though this is using OCW, wouldn't this load also provide a better group/consistency at longer distances? Thanks for your inputs. </div></div>

It's not necessarily a 100 yards vs. longer thing in relation to some finite degree of "accuracy". 100 yards doesn't prove much to me because the dispersion between charge weights isn't defined enough. I want to more clearly see that difference, and that's more easily done at a longer range, 200 or 300 yards. At these distances a true OCW stands out much clearer. Accuracy nodes will still stay put, movement of groups from barrel occilations are more pronounced.

Regarding also your question, you can hit a good load, on any given day, with any given conditions....but will that load repeat on another day under different conditions, or with slightly different components (another lot of primers/powder/bullets)?

The purpose of doing an OCW workup is to find a point in the load parameters that puts the bullet exit from the muzzle at a point in time when the effects of barrel harmonics have the least effect on the muzzle. IOW, the muzzle occilation is at it's calmest state.

The physics here involves a shock wave, induced by the "explosion" of the powder charge, that literally moves the metal of the barrel. It turns the barrel into a figurative "wet noodle". The reaction the muzzle has is a random occilation that in very small degrees points the muzzle to different places when the shock wave is present. This shock wave slings back and forth from chamber to muzzle several times before the bullet reaches the muzzle and exits. It also, from the moment it starts, begins to dissipate like a tuning fork does.

This is easy enough to see on paper with varying points of impact through a string of consecutive powder charges, then turning to the same point of impact for a grain's worth or so, then going back to varying points of impact. The charges that hit the same POI with the same POA are the "nodes" we look for, and thus the point in time when the shockwave is not emediately upon the muzzle, and the muzzle is moving at a lesser/least amount.

All this is to gain the advantage of getting by the random effects the barrel harmonics have on our bullet but there are also default benefits that are achieved. When we find a "node" we also find a consecutive range of powder weights, which is also by default a consecutive range of pressures, which is also by default a consecutive range of velocities.

If you can apply a range of pressures to a bullet and still achieve the same result per "accuracy", then what you have done is incorporated a degree of tolerance to the load. If all things else are as equal as you can make them per case capacity, per carefully weighed charges, per a consistant lot of components, etc; then this load should perform very well across a fairly wide range of ambient temperatures since temperature is a decisive factor relating to pressure.

By the same token, since we have a tolerance to a range of pressures, such things as case capacity take on a lesser importance because we now have a fairly wide margin of error +/- a half grain or more above and below our load.

Although it's prudent to check a new batch of primers/bullets/powder against an old lot number, these slight changes will also have less meaning than they might otherwise have.

Running OCW has all but eliminated the need for me to sort cases, worry about summer loads vs. winter loads, fret over buying all the same lot numbers, etc. My standard for what I shoot is 1 MOA or less "accuracy", usually it's quite a bit less and in the 1/4 to 1/2 MOA throughout the effective range of the chambering. What this means is, my hunting loads, which are also my play loads, will usually give me the same trajectory in my AO to the degree that I won't have to do much scope adjustment from one time of the year to the next, if any at all. My 85 grain TSX load in my .243AI will do the same on groundhogs in June as it does on deer in November per my dope sheet. True I don't live in Alaska or the Bahamas, but then again that's probably on purpose. I of course shoot enough to see seasonal changes in my loads but that's pretty rare.

Finding a powder charge that gives us the pressure range is the first step. As stated earlier, the groups may or may not be satisfactory...but we know we are in a good node because we know we are exiting the bullet very near to the optimum point in time. Due to the law of averages we have no choice but to pick the exact middle of that pressure range, then fine tune from there.

It's my belief that changing the COAL to fine tune a load has very little to do with pressure that has any practical bearing on the bullet, afterall we just found a whole grain's worth of pressure that the system will tolerate. Moving the bullet in or out one or two or three thousandths doesn't increase or decrease the pressure enough to override that entire grain's worth of pressure.

What it does do though, is change the DISTANCE that the bullet has to travel to get to the muzzle. This relates entirely to time over distance, which WILL affect the period of time that the bullet exits the muzzle in relation to where the shockwave is. If our "groups" in our OCW are slightly sloppy, or not round enough, then by changing the distance the bullet travels by a very small amount, we are adjusting the exit time to allow the shockwave to get back far enough away from the muzzle. This is why I say that COAL adjustments are usually very small, because in the whole scheme of things we are playing with a shockwave that moves back and forth VERY fast. It only takes very small adjustments to refine the optimum window in which the bullet needs to exit with the least amount of affect from harmonics.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

I made some changes to the components, please take a look at these pictures and let me know which load would be a good candidate for the middle of the node.

components: 168 grn SMK, Wolf LRP, varget, winchester once fired.

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Re: 308...OCW help

looks to me like your gonna drive your self crazy unless you put every single bullet in the same hole. Keep it simple, don't over analyze.... find your load, write it down, chrony it, jbm it, and stick with it. Reloading to some people is like gambling to others.... always trying to hit that Royal Flush.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

I appologize if I offended you. I just know that I have spent so much money trying to find the perfect load when I have had PLENTY that were 1/4 moa and I wanted to see what else I could find. I have three loads now that I stick with.... GAP Crusader-Lapua brass, 175 smk, 44.5 grains varget, remington 9 1/2 primer seated at 2.825" oal. Remington 700 Police 300. Win mag.- Hornady brass,210 grain berger vld's. wlrm primers, 72.7 r22 ,3.600 coal. Remington spst 308.- Lapua brass, cci 200 lr primers, 168 grain berger vlds seated at 2.960" coal. Again, I know what your saying.... you want the best "bang for your buck".
 
Re: 308...OCW help

Im also trying to load for my 308. I just tried 45.3gr of Varget before i was trying 45.0gr and i had no change in the fps whith useing .3 grains more. What could be the reson for that? And on my last test I had 2 flyers that where not even on paper. My avg fps is 2660 with a 22 in and a 762sd silencer.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

Sniperace, did you try it without the suppressor? I also shot a few that same outing and my 24" with a 762SD was grouping horrible for all loads. It was ranging from .75" to 1.5" at 100 yards.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbohardtop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sniperace, did you try it without the suppressor? I also shot a few that same outing and my 24" with a 762SD was grouping horrible for all loads. It was ranging from .75" to 1.5" at 100 yards. </div></div> No i only shot with it on. I have got good groups with it before. But I was thinking that is could have been the table I was using it wasnt very steady. But I only had 3 out of about 20 that I could not find. What I really dont get is the no change in fps whith useing .3 grains more of powder. Sorry to go off topic but how do you bump the shoulder back my loads are alittle tight.
 
Re: 308...OCW help

Curious what ones definition of optimal is?

op·ti·mal (pt-ml)
adj.
Most favorable or desirable; optimum

So are we discussing what one is most favorable? To me that would depend on the shooter. I do not shoot my 9mm past 25 yards. It is not practical not optimal for me to consider shooting past that.

To me I do not see testing at 100 yards for a .308 any where near a good range for shooting this "Optimal Charge Weight".

What is optimal for me would be different from what you or anyone for that matter would say is optimal.

Are you shooting these in comp at 100 yards? If you are sticking with just 100 yard shots then stick with the smallest m.o.a. that you find.

I really think that we get too caught up in the idea that shooting projectiles out of a barrel has to be an exact science that <span style="text-decoration: underline"> <span style="font-style: italic"> <span style="font-weight: bold">correlates itself to another shooter (with different quirks and shakes when pulling a trigger).</span> </span> </span> I have a different perspective when approaching the rifle, sitting down (or standing/laying) to get to the trigger, breathing as well as squeezing the trigger than others do. This is my optimal way of approaching the riffle.

If you want the "Optimal Charge Weight" at 100 yards you will be able to find it just by shooting your own rifle the way you do. If you would like to find the "Optimal Charge Weight" on an average you WILL need to take it past 100 yards. If not you will only find it for 100 yards. You know what you shoot the best at the range at 100 yards if you look at your targets. I do not think that it will be the same charge at 500 yards.