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Sidearms & Scatterguns 407k as rear sight?

FUNCTIONAL

Dirty Civilian
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Minuteman
  • Feb 19, 2012
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    Eastern, NC
    Going to put a 407k on my shield plus and going to have it milled.

    Typically I see the rds in front of the sight on the shield plus but since the 407k has kind of a rear iron built in, will that be sufficient enough to use as a rear sight?

    Basically I want to mount the 407k back as far as possible and remove the rear sight and if I ever need irons use the 407k iron in its place. Has anyone used the 407ks sight and how was it?
     
    I have a 507k on my glock but I use suppressor height sights as backups.
    I'm not sure that the front sight height on the shield would be compatible to the rear notch in the 407k. You'd have to look into that.
     
    I have a 507k on my glock but I use suppressor height sights as backups.
    I'm not sure that the front sight height on the shield would be compatible to the rear notch in the 407k. You'd have to look into that.
    I have no problem changing the front to get a good height. I was more curious of how functional the actual 407/507k notch is to use as a dedicated rear.
     
    You'll never look at the rear sight if you train to use the RDS properly, so yeah, it's sufficient for its non-existent task.
     
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    I would agree with that. I know when my optic has gone down from a dead battery or I can't immediately find my dot because of my presentation I look for the front sight in the window and index the weapon that way. We're talking CQB distances here.
     
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    I have a 407K. I think the sight notches on it are fine for emergency's. Yeah just get the correct height front sight and call it good.
     
    Going to put a 407k on my shield plus and going to have it milled.

    Typically I see the rds in front of the sight on the shield plus but since the 407k has kind of a rear iron built in, will that be sufficient enough to use as a rear sight?

    Basically I want to mount the 407k back as far as possible and remove the rear sight and if I ever need irons use the 407k iron in its place. Has anyone used the 407ks sight and how was it?

    I guess my opinion is different than some of these others. I've been carrying red dot pistols for about 10-12 years, FWIW, and have milled a number of different pistols for optics. Some have different preferences, and for valid reasons for them, but this is what I've learned with my own stuff.

    IMO, the 407K rear notches make a pretty poor sight. The little wings are hard to pick up when you'd really need them (i.e. not at a square range with good lighting and plenty of time). If you do go that route, you'd have to leave very specific instructions for your gunsmith to set the 407K imitation sight thingy at exactly the same height as your current rear sight. That'll take some math and careful measurements on his part, which most can handle, but some won't be bothered to get it right. YMMV on that.

    Besides that though - there's no good reason to set the optic as far back as possible; it's not enough difference to matter one way or the other in this application, but an optic mounted farther forward points more naturally than one mounted closer to your wrist. Mounting it all the way back and eliminating the rear sight is just removing options from an otherwise good setup, without gaining anything of benefit. That gun should have plenty of room to leave the rear sight in place and install the 407K. IIRC, what you're describing may be necessary with a full size RMR or 407C, but the 407K should fit fine.

    I'd also recommend spending a little more for the 507K, if it's a carry gun. It's not that much more money.
     
    Appreciate the input, talked to the guy who is going to mill it and it's not something he will do. Mounting it far enough back to not look horrible and cover the rear sight notch puts the mounting screws in a place they can't be. So in front of the stock rear it is.

    As for 407k vs 507k my understanding is the only difference is the reticles. 407k is 6moa dot and 507k is dot, circle or circle dot. I really have no desire to use anything other than a dot in a carry pistol which is why I was going 407k. Anything I missed?
     
    I don't know what your background is but a lot of shooters find the circle dot easier to use. People think a dot will make you shoot better. A dot will exploit any weaknesses or inconsistencies in your presentation. I've had trained professionals tell me that their dot wasn't on or it wasn't working. It wasn't the dot...
     
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    I don't know what your background is but a lot of shooters find the circle dot easier to use. People think a dot will make you shoot better. A dot will exploit any weaknesses or inconsistencies in your presentation. I've had trained professionals tell me that their dot wasn't on or it wasn't working. It wasn't the dot...
    Part of my issue is an astigmatism. Anything in the window blooms to a degree. My 3moa dot on my rmr blooms to about 5ish moa. 6 will be plenty big, a circle will damn near cover a human.

    But this isn't my first dot on a pistol, have one on my p07 I've carried before this shield. I do get the issue you are talking about though, took some dry reps to get it sorted out when I made the switch.
     
    I would definitely do an RMRcc. Or do a Shield sights "Glass edition", or the new Bushnell micro.
     
    I prefer the simplicity of a plain dot to the circle-dot or triangle or any other form of avant-garde reticle. All of my competition guns are plain dots in the 5-6 MOA range, so I went with the 407K and the 6MOA dot for my carry gun. Keeping it simple. Plus I think the battery lasts longer on the 407K than the 507K.

    As far as the nubs on the rear of the optic that identify as a rear sight… while they may give you something resembling a reference point for a rear notch if your dot ever goes out, I think most proficient pistol shooters would do better by just indexing on the target and start blasting. One should expect at least a minute-of-torso accuracy with just a good index out to 7 yds or so.
     
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    Appreciate the input, talked to the guy who is going to mill it and it's not something he will do. Mounting it far enough back to not look horrible and cover the rear sight notch puts the mounting screws in a place they can't be. So in front of the stock rear it is.

    As for 407k vs 507k my understanding is the only difference is the reticles. 407k is 6moa dot and 507k is dot, circle or circle dot. I really have no desire to use anything other than a dot in a carry pistol which is why I was going 407k. Anything I missed?

    The dot thing is the difference you see on paper (and I agree on just using the dot for a carry gun), but more importantly the 507 has an enclosed emitter behind a tiny piece of glass that appears to be sealed to the housing. The 407 has the emitter exposed in that little opening; I haven't tested it for water damage but if you carry it, you'll definitely have to deal with lint, hair, skin cells, and whatever else gets in there. The ability to just wipe off that little lens when you wipe off the window is pretty important, IMO. (Based on the samples I have, this is true for both the "c" and "k" sized optics, either of which are available in 407 or 507 versions.) Also, I believe the 507 models have more robust internal electronics; the 407 models are definitely a cheaper option with some corners cut for those who may not need all the benefits of the 507.

    FWIW, a couple other thoughts on the differences, not all in favor of the 507:
    Most of my optics are the RMR or "c" sized (holosun) type in red, but with my 507k I went with the green reticle - it's very visible, but blooms way more than any of my red optics, including the red 407k. One point for the 407k there; in hindsight, for my eyes I'd go with the 507k next time.

    Also in case you didn't know - the 507c has an auto brightness feature, but the 507k does not; the 407k and 507k both have manual brightness adjustment only so no advantage to the 507 version for that. In the "c" size, the auto brightness is definitely my preference, both for useability and battery life. The shake awake feature is useless on a carry gun though, since it remains constantly awake as you move around, and I've experienced a couple instances where it didn't wake up fast enough when batteries were getting low; I'd rather not have that feature on my carry pistols although I like it on a carbine.
     
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    Interesting I haven't read that yet. I didn't think the reticle choices were worth an extra $100 but I'll have to read into those other things more.

    I plan on disabling the shake awake and prefered no auto adjust brightness. I don't think anyone does auto brightness better than trijicon but want the bigger window of the holosun on this gun. I'm not convinced the rmrcc is that much more robust for a daily carry need.
     
    Interesting I haven't read that yet. I didn't think the reticle choices were worth an extra $100 but I'll have to read into those other things more.

    I plan on disabling the shake awake and prefered no auto adjust brightness. I don't think anyone does auto brightness better than trijicon but want the bigger window of the holosun on this gun. I'm not convinced the rmrcc is that much more robust for a daily carry need.

    Yeah to be honest I hadn't read about it anywhere either; I don't know if anyone's bothered to write about it or even look at this point, these K sized optics are still fairly new. I'm just going by what I see in the optics I own. I can try to get some pictures later if it'd help.

    You might be able to find a difference in water resistance specs (if any?) that Holosun lists for the 407k vs 507k, which would indicate something about that open emitter window in the 407k.

    On the auto brightness - you don't get a choice with either of the "k" optics anyway, but for the standard "c" or RMR size I'd like to share a couple thoughts. Conventional wisdom is that you should use manual brightness, but after carrying an pistol mounted optic of some sort every day for the past 10+ years, I disagree. I think there's a fundamental difference in perspective here, with most (by far) advice on using pistol mounted optics coming from .mil experience, which has then trickled down to LEOs, and then down to civilian trainers. (Granted, these started in the civilian world, and that's where I got into it, but the mainstream thought process has been influenced a lot by the .mil world.)

    Thing is, a door kicker military or SWAT type of application is proactive in nature, where one has the luxury of checking, adjusting, and verifying an optic's brightness prior to use. Us ccw guys don't get that luxury - our role is reactive, and the optic has to work everywhere in all conditions, or at least in most conditions you'd reasonably expect to encounter. You don't get to adjust it before using the gun, and although I've heard some guys claim they'll adjust it during the day/night as conditions change, that's unreasonable and not sustainable.

    The primary advice I see is to set the optic brightness to work in most conditions. Problem is, that pretty much guarantees that it'll be way too bright in dim light, and likely not bright enough in really bright lighting, like when aiming past/towards really bright lights. (And that scenario is the primary argument against using auto brightness.) You can adjust it brighter so it works well with bright light conditions, but then you've got a blooming lens full of red or green in low light, especially when you've been carrying it all day and there's some lint, dust, etc on the lens.

    So my preference, instead of using one fixed brightness, is to use auto brightness. It doesn't work in every single situation, especially with the Holosuns (*more on that in a minute) and mainly when shooting from dark to bright light, but it does work in a much wider range of conditions than fixed brightness. Rather than setting it to not work well at least once per day (too bright or too dim), you get something that works in all except the rare circumstance of shooting from very dark into very bright lighting. And guess what - that's when the irons stand out well anyway, and you can still shoot to those so it's not like you lose ability to aim.

    YMMV on that of course, and it's somewhat dependent on the eyes and the optic itself, but for a CCW role please consider whether the recommendations you follow are coming from that same application, or something else. One note on using a fixed brightness optic - I've found that a larger reticle of some sort, either a larger dot, or a circle dot, can be set dimmer than a small dot and still be picked up easily in bright light. I've been experimenting with using a 507k that way with the circle dot (I was previously just using the dot, and didn't like it) and it does seem to be a little better.

    *Auto brightness function between the Holosun 507c and Trijicon RMR is different. The Holosun, at least the X2 version, does have two levels of auto brightness (use the higher one), but it uses the solar panel on top as the light sensor. This means that it adjusts brightness based on light directly above the gun. (Test this by covering it with tape or a finger/hand.) The RMR, on the other hand, has the sensor located next to the emitter, behind that tiny glass lens that encloses the emitter and makes it water resistant. Because of the location, the light sensor "sees" brightness in front of the gun; it's not pointed exactly where the gun is pointed, but up at a slight angle. That's not perfect, but is a much better auto brightness system than the Holosun, and in most conditions even shooting from dark to bright it still adjusts correctly. Exceptions are when something above you shadows the light the sensor sees, like aiming upwards through a doorway so that the top of the doorway shadows the optic (but again that's partly why we use co-witnessed irons). I do not have an RMRcc and don't know if it works the same way, but it's a different and much longer footprint than the "k" sized Holosuns. Currently the only "k" sized optic with auto brightness I know of is the Swampfox Sentinel, but its light sensor is on the side, and they're not known to be very robust; I wouldn't carry one.

    Anyway, that's a lot more than I intended to type out, but hopefully some food for thought at least.
     
    Trijicon's auto-brightness adjustment is really dang good. I always use it.

    Holosun's has problems, at least on the 407k and 507c optics I've used. I avoid it.
     
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    The problem with auto brightness is it detects the lighting conditions where the shooter is. If you're in the dark aiming into a brightly lit area your dot will be too dim. If you're in the dark and then illuminate a target with 1000 lumens your dot will get washed out by your weapon light.

    First thing I do is turn that off. That and that stupid strobe function on flashlights.
     
    The problem with auto brightness is it detects the lighting conditions where the shooter is. If you're in the dark aiming into a brightly lit area your dot will be too dim. If you're in the dark and then illuminate a target with 1000 lumens your dot will get washed out by your weapon light.

    First thing I do is turn that off. That and that stupid strobe function on flashlights.

    I don't think you read what I wrote about that, and the difference between how the Holosun and Trijicon optics do it. The Holosun models do as you described. The RMR detects light in front of the gun, basically whatever is above the target. Easy to test for yourself if you don't believe me.

    If you tried it on an RMR instead of shutting it off immediately, you'd probably find that it works a lot better than manually adjusting brightness, at least for a concealed carry role. Besides, if you're manually adjusting brightness to work with a 1,000 lumen weapon light, then it's obviously way too bright to work well in other low light conditions that don't need a light.

    I'd rather take a chance on the rare instance of the dot getting washed out, than to guarantee it to not work right for part of every day.
     
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    Trijicon's auto-brightness adjustment is really dang good. I always use it.

    Holosun's has problems, at least on the 407k and 507c optics I've used. I avoid it.

    Agreed on the Trijicon. I switched from them to Holosun for the last few years on a few of my pistols, but am thinking of moving back to the RMR on my carry guns just because of this.

    I haven't had any "problems", per se, with the Holosun 507c (the 407k doesn't have auto brightness) except for the way it detects light above the shooter instead of out in front. I have 5 or 6 (I think?) of that model and they've all been reliable, but the auto brightness of the RMR is definitely superior.
     
    Agreed on the Trijicon. I switched from them to Holosun for the last few years on a few of my pistols, but am thinking of moving back to the RMR on my carry guns just because of this.

    I haven't had any "problems", per se, with the Holosun 507c (the 407k doesn't have auto brightness) except for the way it detects light above the shooter instead of out in front. I have 5 or 6 (I think?) of that model and they've all been reliable, but the auto brightness of the RMR is definitely superior.

    The problems I've experienced with the 507c are indeed due to exactly what you describe - if I'm standing someplace dark (such as under some overhead cover) and shooting at an illuminated target (such as one in direct sunlight), the dot is often imperceptible. That is rather annoying during recreational activities and could be disastrous in a self-defense scenario.

    I can come up with a list of gripes about the RMR, but ultimately it just works at the most basic level.
     
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    Sorry, I should've been more clear. I'm speaking of holosuns and streamlight weaponlights and handhelds.

    My only experience with the RMR is a first gen on an indoor range with controlled lighting conditions.
     
    I can come up with a list of gripes about the RMR, but ultimately it just works at the most basic level.

    This sums up my thoughts about the RMR too. I don't love it, but it's better than most, and I know I can't break it easily (yet).

    I run an SRO on my USPSA blaster for the same reasons... and that brings me to the OP's question: you don't need a rear sight, in fact, if you buy wisely, you shouldn't even need or have to worry about backup sights. Just buy one that won't break on you, check that box first for an EDC tool.

    Strangely, Holosun's always have less distortion for me, but I only really trust them on range guns. Work/carry guns get RMR07s.

    That said, for what it cost, I almost can't believe I'm saying it, but I just unboxed Vortex's new Defender red dot which I got for less than $200... and I'm kind of shocked... so far, my first impression is, I'd say it's the best RMR knock off to date (might even be better to live with since the battery door is like the SRO's). It seriously may/could turn out to be a better option than a Holosun. Its glass is clearer than an RMR/SRO's, and the dot is sharp and bright. It's made in China I think, but Vortex made them make it beefy, it feels like a Trijicon, not a Holosun.

    I got it for my bolt gun (target acquisition "training wheels"), but anyone looking for a budget-friendly dot should probably take a hard look. I mean if it breaks, at least we know Vortex will replace it.

    No rear sight, no problem:
    tempImageulnqM0.png
     
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    I run an SRO on my USPSA blaster for the same reasons... and that brings me to the OP's question: you don't need a rear sight, in fact, if you buy wisely, you shouldn't even need or have to worry about backup sights. Just buy one that won't break on you, check that box first for an EDC tool.

    Sorry but that is NOT good advice for a carry gun, which is what the OP stated he's interested in.

    Too many people make the mistake of thinking what works for competition must be good for carry too - you're only seeing a very limited set of circumstances in competition compared to the real world of carrying every day.

    The reasons for having functional iron sights with your optic on a carry gun have been gone over ad nauseum for the past 10+ years, and are just as valid today as the first time it was brought up.
     
    Sorry but that is NOT good advice for a carry gun, which is what the OP stated he's interested in.

    Too many people make the mistake of thinking what works for competition must be good for carry too - you're only seeing a very limited set of circumstances in competition compared to the real world of carrying every day.

    The reasons for having functional iron sights with your optic on a carry gun have been gone over ad nauseum for the past 10+ years, and are just as valid today as the first time it was brought up.

    Doctrine changes, and absolutely having to have backups is an old doctrine.

    My opinion isn't just informed by competition, but also from carrying a gun for 20+ years in some of the worst places in the world and on the streets (whether on duty or concealed) to this day.

    This is a debate that will likely never end, but with the reliability of current sight options, these days whether to run backups or not is purely one's own choice and the only hard rule is one shouldn't compromise their primary sighting system in order to accommodate a backup system when it's overwhelmingly likely they'll never use/need it.

    Here is an article from ~10 years ago discussing the same phenomenon/conundrum with ARs: https://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/13/gunfighter-moment-frank-proctor-16/
     
    Doctrine changes, and absolutely having to have backups is an old doctrine.

    My opinion isn't just informed by competition, but also from carrying a gun for 20+ years in some of the worst places in the world and on the streets (whether on duty or concealed) to this day.

    This is a debate that will likely never end, but with the reliability of current sight options, these days whether to run backups or not is purely one's own choice and the only hard rule is one shouldn't compromise their primary sighting system in order to accommodate a backup system when it's overwhelmingly likely they'll never use/need it.

    Here is an article from ~10 years ago discussing the same phenomenon/conundrum with ARs: https://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/13/gunfighter-moment-frank-proctor-16/

    You've missed or dismissed some of the main reasons to have irons though. Reliability of the optic is only one of them. (And we started out with RMRs way back then, and they're still the top choice - not much has changed there.)

    - Irons are a backup when you can't see the dot. Maybe there's dirt or mud in front of the emitter. Or maybe the dot is washed out against a really bright light; if you test enough real world scenarios you WILL run into this, regardless if you've used a manual "one size fits all" adjustment or auto brightness. When any of these happen, you can just aim with the irons. Without irons, you're dead in the water with nothing to go on but point shooting. (And if point shooting was enough, you didn't need the optic or irons to start with.)

    - Irons are an excellent way to verify dot zero hasn't changed; this is something to do every morning before leaving the house. Without irons, you have no way of knowing if that dot has suddenly changed zero. With irons, it's immediately obvious. And it does happen, if you carry long enough chances are high that you'll encounter that. Is it better to find out zero changed when you get ready in the morning, or when you have to shoot someone and you're hitting a foot to the right?

    There are more, like if your optic glass gets smashed (you're using an SRO - google what happens to them in a drop test, definitely not more reliable than the old RMR) and you could stay in the fight with irons if you can clear the glass, etc, but those two above are kind of a big deal for carry.

    If you've gotten your training from people who are game focused, chances are those things were glossed over, but they are real issues for the CCW guy to consider and deal with.
     
    I don't want to get into an endless debate about this... I was afraid this would start heading towards Tactical Timmy's "stay in the fight" nonsense and it appears we have arrived. It won't be long before we're into the "I keep a backup torch and 550 cord in my pajamas when I go to bed at night" BS. :rolleyes:

    If one's chosen platform allows for unobtrusive backups, then of course, go for it. But using a platform's ability to accommodate backups or not as any sort of "make or break" criteria, or maybe worse, throwing on giant suppressor-height irons that obstruct one's primary when they do accommodate them, is a ship that sailed long ago.

    The fact is all pistol-mounted dots have the same Achilles' heel: if they stop working and/or the window gets smashed when you need them, then we're all stuck more or less point-shooting with our thumbs, and we better have put in the work and have sound fundamentals, or else. But chances are, overwhelmingly, that if one bought a decent quality dot and put enough rounds through the system to know it's not defective out of the gate, it will work, and will be there if/when they need it.

    More than half the guys that cry about backups and carrying spare mags and all that stuff haven't even learned to shoot with both eyes open yet.
     
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    Personally I like backup sights on a pistol. Even though pistol RDS have come a long way I still don't think they are on the same Leven as full size optics. This is all going to come down to the user. I just needed to know if the holisun built in was more practical and less gimmick. Either way it didn't matter because I can't mount it that far back anyway and have to keep my stock rear. Slide goes out tomorrow to get milled.

    407k x2 in green is also on its way. Played with one recently and it at was much more clear than my red RMR. Supposedly green can be seen more true for people with an astigmatism and that's true in my case.
     
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    I don't want to get into an endless debate about this... I was afraid this would start heading towards Tactical Timmy's "stay in the fight" nonsense and it appears we have arrived. It won't be long before we're into the "I keep a backup torch and 550 cord in my pajamas when I go to bed at night" BS. :rolleyes:

    If one's chosen platform allows for unobtrusive backups, then of course, go for it. But using a platform's ability to accommodate backups or not as any sort of "make or break" criteria, or maybe worse, throwing on giant suppressor-height irons that obstruct one's primary when they do accommodate them, is a ship that sailed long ago.

    The fact is all pistol-mounted dots have the same Achilles' heel: if they stop working and/or the window gets smashed when you need them, then we're all stuck more or less point-shooting with our thumbs, and we better have put in the work and have sound fundamentals, or else. But chances are, overwhelmingly, that if one bought a decent quality dot and put enough rounds through the system to know it's not defective out of the gate, it will work, and will be there if/when they need it.

    More than half the guys that cry about backups and carrying spare mags and all that stuff haven't even learned to shoot with both eyes open yet.

    Aw come on man, that's some weak sauce BS. You don't have an answer for the basic (and very well demonstrated/proven) reasons for using irons, so you picked out the obscure afterthought condition I mentioned and try to dismiss the whole thing by throwing out insults. Real classy, dude.

    Frankly, pretty much everything you've said here is crap, starting with the arrogant comments about "doctrine changes" (while using an optic proven to be less reliable than the RMRs we were using 10-15 years ago, LOL), all the way through this silliness about irons obstructing your view and playing off backup irons as a side note "if your platform allows it". Seriously, it's all a bunch of gamer-kid crap. The people who think gun games have taught them what they need to know to defend themselves and win a gunfight are the worst; it's just not worth discussing when someone has their head that far in the sand. Your gamer toy pistol setup is crap as a self defense carry gun, but you'd rather ignore reality than recognize that.

    The backup irons thing is not "an endless debate", any more than it's an "endless debate" about cars with 4 wheels being better than cars with only 3. It's not a debate at all, just a certain group of people who refuse to consider reality being different than the shooting range.
     
    Aw come on man, that's some weak sauce BS. You don't have an answer for the basic (and very well demonstrated/proven) reasons for using irons, so you picked out the obscure afterthought condition I mentioned and try to dismiss the whole thing by throwing out insults. Real classy, dude.

    Frankly, pretty much everything you've said here is crap, starting with the arrogant comments about "doctrine changes" (while using an optic proven to be less reliable than the RMRs we were using 10-15 years ago, LOL), all the way through this silliness about irons obstructing your view and playing off backup irons as a side note "if your platform allows it". Seriously, it's all a bunch of gamer-kid crap. The people who think gun games have taught them what they need to know to defend themselves and win a gunfight are the worst; it's just not worth discussing when someone has their head that far in the sand. Your gamer toy pistol setup is crap as a self defense carry gun, but you'd rather ignore reality than recognize that.

    The backup irons thing is not "an endless debate", any more than it's an "endless debate" about cars with 4 wheels being better than cars with only 3. It's not a debate at all, just a certain group of people who refuse to consider reality being different than the shooting range.

    I don't want to keep arguing about this, obviously, you know it all. But you're wrong. :ROFLMAO:

    For the OP, I'd suggest looking into the new Vortex as an alternative over the Holosun, looks like to be built better, time will tell. At least it has sort of a built-in rear sight so you don't have to argue with Tactical Timmys about not having one. :rolleyes:

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