Michigan just authorized some straight wall pistol loads to be used in rifles for deer hunting for 2014. I have a 20" Katahdin barrel in 460 S&W for a TC Encore rifle and wondered if anyone has reloading results or bullet performance info to share for use in a rifle instead of a pistol. I have some factory 200 gr FTX ammo and some 200 FTX bullets, but wonder if heavier bullets wouldn't perform better for 200+ yd shots. Would be interested in pistol info too if anyone has good long range data as the 200 FTX has grouped real well out of a scoped S&W pistol at 100 yds. Thanks!!
Range Report 460 S&W Rifle Info Request
- Thread starter 300winemag
- Start date
No, but looking forward to comments... I will be using a 20" MGM 44 mag barrel on my contender and 225 grain FTX with the only powder I can find right now N110.
Well I ordered some Barnes 200 and 275 XPBs. Will report back after I get them and test drive a few.
Still appreciate any results others may have had w 460 rifle.
I had a 460 pistol and the setup you have. I loaded for it and tried both the 200 and 275 gr Barnes.
I used h110 and AA#9 for powders. My loads from the katadin were right around an inch at 100 yards.
The problem I had is that I needed mark 4 rings just to hold my scope from sliding due to the recoil.
Actually had the cross hairs on my vx2 shatter and looked like tinsle. The 460 prohunter set up was brutal. I stopped letting people shoot it after 2 people got scoped and cut bad. It was hard to stop laughing when I said it would happen.
I used h110 and AA#9 for powders. My loads from the katadin were right around an inch at 100 yards.
The problem I had is that I needed mark 4 rings just to hold my scope from sliding due to the recoil.
Actually had the cross hairs on my vx2 shatter and looked like tinsle. The 460 prohunter set up was brutal. I stopped letting people shoot it after 2 people got scoped and cut bad. It was hard to stop laughing when I said it would happen.
I used AA#9 for both Barnes
200 gr was 46 gr of powder
275 gr was 36 gr of powder
275 Barnes shot better in the TC.
I never went past 100 yards. with it so I can't help you there.
The Hornady custom loads with the 200 gr FTX shot better than any of my hand loads. But I was new to reloading then and didn't do ladder tests.
200 gr was 46 gr of powder
275 gr was 36 gr of powder
275 Barnes shot better in the TC.
I never went past 100 yards. with it so I can't help you there.
The Hornady custom loads with the 200 gr FTX shot better than any of my hand loads. But I was new to reloading then and didn't do ladder tests.
Well thanks for the info and the heads up on keeping the scope out of my face. Only the 200 gr Barnes showed up so I will start with that. Have some factory 200 FTX to shoot for break in and brass.
Yeah the combo of 40+ gr of pistol powder and a fairly light pro hunter makes for quick recoil. Similar to a 5-6 lb 30-06 throwing a 200 gr bullet. A lot of eye relief is key.
Finally have a little info to pass on regarding the 460 S&W w/20" Katahdin / Encore.
Sighted in with factory Hornady FTX 200 gr bullets, then got a 5 shot, 1" group with them at 100 yds, ave speed 2872 fps on magnetospeed V3. Pretty happy with that 3 hole group.
Shot no crimp reloads with 275 gr Barnes XPB and H110 powder at 100 yds:
36 grn - 2106 and 2128 fps and one didn't record speed - 2 at 3/4", 1 at 2" (They were about 16" lower than the 200 grns hit).
36.5 grn - 2127 and 2131 fps - 3" group
37 grn - 2125 and 2154 fps - 1" group
I know 2 shots do not make a group, but was just working up to 38 grns and will report back with more info as soon as I reload and unload a few more.
Sighted in with factory Hornady FTX 200 gr bullets, then got a 5 shot, 1" group with them at 100 yds, ave speed 2872 fps on magnetospeed V3. Pretty happy with that 3 hole group.
Shot no crimp reloads with 275 gr Barnes XPB and H110 powder at 100 yds:
36 grn - 2106 and 2128 fps and one didn't record speed - 2 at 3/4", 1 at 2" (They were about 16" lower than the 200 grns hit).
36.5 grn - 2127 and 2131 fps - 3" group
37 grn - 2125 and 2154 fps - 1" group
I know 2 shots do not make a group, but was just working up to 38 grns and will report back with more info as soon as I reload and unload a few more.
Is that a miss print? you got 2872???
Not a misprint, just pulled the v3 out and checked again. I would have been really surprised if I hadn't read where someone else had gotten 2900 fps with same loads. They are supposed to be like +/- 2200 fps in a 8" pistol barrel?
I have some 200 gr Hornady and Barnes that will be interesting to test. Will keep posting results.
Yes sir, you should get at least 400 fps gain going from a 460 8" pistol to the 20" katadin barrel.
I never had a krono when I shot mine, but I shot both with 200 gr Barnes into water jugs and the pistol bullet was opened perfect like the book shows.
The bullet recovered from the encore rifle was peeled back and looked like it comet.
Not sure where I read it, but the encore will push a 200 gr bullet faster than an 30-06.
My 308 is pushing the 210 bergers around 2375 fps, you definitely have me there.
300winemag, your going to make me regret selling my barrel.
I never had a krono when I shot mine, but I shot both with 200 gr Barnes into water jugs and the pistol bullet was opened perfect like the book shows.
The bullet recovered from the encore rifle was peeled back and looked like it comet.
Not sure where I read it, but the encore will push a 200 gr bullet faster than an 30-06.
My 308 is pushing the 210 bergers around 2375 fps, you definitely have me there.
300winemag, your going to make me regret selling my barrel.
Well, your shoulder probably still thanks you for selling it, she rocks pretty good and rates right up there with 3" 12 ga slugs I'd say. Not that fun for extended shooting but should do the trick on deer or dinosaurs.
Thanks... looks like a 460 barrel is in my future for 2015. I had been considering a 450 bushmaster until now.
I've been loading N110 with 210Rems for my revolvers for years, super powder in a handgun, with the 20 in barrel, I'm curious how it would do, and would N120 deliver a high velocity. If you ever get a chance to try it out, please post your results, they would be very interesting. BTW the 210remingtons, use to be listed as "seasonal" as they didn't make them very often, years ago I bought 5000 when the getting was good. I use to shoot them as part of my regular range ammo, quit, and started used xtps- as they are (were) easier to find.
Would love to see a 460 in a bolt action rifle with a 16" barrel sitting in a manners T5A... I'm sure the rim would be an issue. It would probably feed like crap. Might as well go 45-70.
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damn, i wanted one of those 20" 460 for my encore for a long time, may have to cock the hammer and pull the trigger, are 454 casull easier on the shoulder than the 460 loads??
If you get the 460 barrel you can shoot 45 colt, and the 454 casull as well. 45. colt will make it sound like a pop gun.
Nice, who is making the brass? Or is it a DIY 308 case cut down?
Starline, above the pic is a link to their website. They designed it for an AR-10, barrels are $300 and brass is $200 for 250. If I lived in Mich I'd be building one!
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I LIKE! This may just be my next custom project. 20" braked 700 would look nice in the tree stand.
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Man I like the concept of hunting with that 45 Raptor!! Hoping to only need one good shot to the right address with the TC I guess.
More info from the range on the 20" Katahdin T/C over magneto speed v3:
200 gr Barnes XPB w/ H110 powder, LRM primers- at 100 yds, (no wind in concrete pipe tube range)
45 gr (min listed load) 2427, 2497 fps = touching holes
45.5 gr 2602,2604,2592,2576 fps = 3 holes at 1" cntr, 4th at 1.5"
46.0 gr 2576, 2610 = 1" group
46.5 gr 2620, 2581 = (max load listed) made same hole a little larger
47.0 gr 2727 (NOTE: over max listed use with caution - but no pressure signs)
2 shots aren't a group but was still just working up to max...
Back to the Barnes 275 gr XPB w/ H110, MRP, at 100 yds
37.0 gr 2185, 2186 fps = 2.5" group
37.5 gr 2206, 2204 fps = 2" group
38.0 gr 2224, 2214 (38.2 max listed) = 2.5" group
Shot 5 factory load Hornady 200 gr FTX at 200 yds:
2833 to 2871 fps - Three holes touched, final group was 1.5" wide x 3" tall, but the first shot was the big cause of the height, these shots were out of a hot barrel. Will load some 5 shot groups of 200 gr Barnes and try them at 200 yds, then try 300 yds when I find a good load. Looks like the gun prefers both types of 200 grain bullets over 275 gr.
More info from the range on the 20" Katahdin T/C over magneto speed v3:
200 gr Barnes XPB w/ H110 powder, LRM primers- at 100 yds, (no wind in concrete pipe tube range)
45 gr (min listed load) 2427, 2497 fps = touching holes
45.5 gr 2602,2604,2592,2576 fps = 3 holes at 1" cntr, 4th at 1.5"
46.0 gr 2576, 2610 = 1" group
46.5 gr 2620, 2581 = (max load listed) made same hole a little larger
47.0 gr 2727 (NOTE: over max listed use with caution - but no pressure signs)
2 shots aren't a group but was still just working up to max...
Back to the Barnes 275 gr XPB w/ H110, MRP, at 100 yds
37.0 gr 2185, 2186 fps = 2.5" group
37.5 gr 2206, 2204 fps = 2" group
38.0 gr 2224, 2214 (38.2 max listed) = 2.5" group
Shot 5 factory load Hornady 200 gr FTX at 200 yds:
2833 to 2871 fps - Three holes touched, final group was 1.5" wide x 3" tall, but the first shot was the big cause of the height, these shots were out of a hot barrel. Will load some 5 shot groups of 200 gr Barnes and try them at 200 yds, then try 300 yds when I find a good load. Looks like the gun prefers both types of 200 grain bullets over 275 gr.
Thats not fair, LOL. Really enjoying your updates... keep them coming.
Niles Coyote,
Hey I assume when you say that is unfair you mean the no wind to deal with in the concrete tube. Well I wanted you to know it really is a tough place to shoot, after the shot you have to look at the TV monitor to see where your bullet hit the target, and put a magic marker dot on the hit so you know which shot is which, then power scroll down a new target when there is too many holes. Pretty slick setup for the 48" dia 100 yd and 54" dia 200 yard tube ranges. The two 50yd tubes have no TV monitor so you really have to rough it. It is Duncans Outdoors in Bay City if you are ever passing by. The no wind part is really nice for dialing loads in, wish it was 300 yds longer.
I forgot to add perhaps the most important point above was at 200 yds the Hornady factory ammo hit only about 3" lower than they did at 100 yd so it seems to be aim and shoot with no holdover out to 200 at least. Right now it is zeroed at 100, but will probably raise that a little when the loads get dialed in.
Hey I assume when you say that is unfair you mean the no wind to deal with in the concrete tube. Well I wanted you to know it really is a tough place to shoot, after the shot you have to look at the TV monitor to see where your bullet hit the target, and put a magic marker dot on the hit so you know which shot is which, then power scroll down a new target when there is too many holes. Pretty slick setup for the 48" dia 100 yd and 54" dia 200 yard tube ranges. The two 50yd tubes have no TV monitor so you really have to rough it. It is Duncans Outdoors in Bay City if you are ever passing by. The no wind part is really nice for dialing loads in, wish it was 300 yds longer.
I forgot to add perhaps the most important point above was at 200 yds the Hornady factory ammo hit only about 3" lower than they did at 100 yd so it seems to be aim and shoot with no holdover out to 200 at least. Right now it is zeroed at 100, but will probably raise that a little when the loads get dialed in.
A few more loads to report on with 200gr Barnes XPB w/ H110 powder. Not too much exciting but here it is.
47.5 gr (Note - over max load) 2621, 2670, 2684 fps = 2" group at 100yd
48.0 gr (still over max) 2622,2677 fps = 2" at 100 yd
Tried 46.5 grains at 200 yds w/ no chrono for grouping. First and last shot were 1.25" apart, second and third shot were 2.5", but the two groups were 3.5" apart left to right??
I'm color blind shooting at an orange target on manila paper with only 6 power so not sure if it was operator error or can't see orange or haven't found the right load yet or some combination thereof.
Factory Hornadys are better than mine so far...
47.5 gr (Note - over max load) 2621, 2670, 2684 fps = 2" group at 100yd
48.0 gr (still over max) 2622,2677 fps = 2" at 100 yd
Tried 46.5 grains at 200 yds w/ no chrono for grouping. First and last shot were 1.25" apart, second and third shot were 2.5", but the two groups were 3.5" apart left to right??
I'm color blind shooting at an orange target on manila paper with only 6 power so not sure if it was operator error or can't see orange or haven't found the right load yet or some combination thereof.
Factory Hornadys are better than mine so far...
Today I tried 200 gr Hornady FTX bullets with H110 powder, magnum primers, in 2 shot groups checking speed w/ V3 and looking for pressure signs.
50.0 gr 2772, 2826 fps (started w/ clean barrel)
50.5 gr 2818, 2797 fps this 3/4" group was best - the rest were 1.5-2.5" at 100 yds
51.0 gr 2858, 2891 fps
51.5 gr 2832, 2869 fps
52.0 gr 2868, 2871 fps
52.5 gr 2882, 2913 fps (pretty fast for a .452" nugget)
52.7 gr is max listed in Hornady book for H110, but 50 grain fills the case up to within about 3/16" - 1/4" of the top of the brass, and the last 3-4 loads had to be compressing powder.
No pressure signs yet, but those were all pretty stout loads, and I probably won't try any higher powder weights.
As Jerry Lee Lewis would say - "Goodness Gracious - Great Balls of Fire!!!" Those loads really light up the tube...
Also shot 5 Barnes 200 XPB, and 45.5 gr H110 for group at 100 yds with no V3. Got 3 at 3/4", 1 at 1.5" and 1 at 2.5" for a 2.5" warm barrel, steady fire group - not really what I am looking for but I like what other Barnes bullets does for damage so I will keep on trying them.
50.0 gr 2772, 2826 fps (started w/ clean barrel)
50.5 gr 2818, 2797 fps this 3/4" group was best - the rest were 1.5-2.5" at 100 yds
51.0 gr 2858, 2891 fps
51.5 gr 2832, 2869 fps
52.0 gr 2868, 2871 fps
52.5 gr 2882, 2913 fps (pretty fast for a .452" nugget)
52.7 gr is max listed in Hornady book for H110, but 50 grain fills the case up to within about 3/16" - 1/4" of the top of the brass, and the last 3-4 loads had to be compressing powder.
No pressure signs yet, but those were all pretty stout loads, and I probably won't try any higher powder weights.
As Jerry Lee Lewis would say - "Goodness Gracious - Great Balls of Fire!!!" Those loads really light up the tube...
Also shot 5 Barnes 200 XPB, and 45.5 gr H110 for group at 100 yds with no V3. Got 3 at 3/4", 1 at 1.5" and 1 at 2.5" for a 2.5" warm barrel, steady fire group - not really what I am looking for but I like what other Barnes bullets does for damage so I will keep on trying them.
That 45 Raptor would make a cool bolt gun if someone was to make a Savage barrel for it.
Finally got to 300 yds with the 460.
My reloads w/ Barnes 200 xpb and 46.5 gr H110 at around 2600fps kind of smelled bad... Maybe sucked is a better description.
Zeroed at 100 yds
At 300 yds they averaged 32" low, 3 were in a 5" group, 1 at 9.5" and 1 at 12" - it was kind of looked like 2 decent groups. Had kind of a similar, 5 shot, 2 group pattern at 200 yds.
Question - are there any 44,460, or 50 cal pistol reloaders watching this? I wasn't crimping loads as it was all single fire... Wonder if crimping would give better consistency?? That H110 is really fine textured powder. This was my first test run at pistol reloading, only did rifle loads in the past.
Factory Hornady 200 FTX shot better.
Zeroed at 100
At 200 yds had a 5" tall x 3" wide 3 shot group, centered 5" below bullseye - so so
At 300 yds had 2 shots at 2" and 1 at 4.5" and it was centered 20" below bullseye so the drop isn't bad.
May try different powder, kind of ready to give up on H110. Anybody else having better results w 460 reloads? May go back to 20 gauge savage w 3" accutips which gives me about 2" at 200, or the trusty muzzle loader, both of which are more accurate? Better yet go north and stay out of shotgun zone??
Oh well it's been fun trying
I am exploring crimp on my 44 mag right now. In the past I have crimped everything (as far as pistol ammo goes) with a taper crimp die and had good results. With my rifle barrel and because I am single loading them like I would a rifle, I have skipped this step... but after shooting it a while I decided to crimp a few for testing but have yet to shoot them.
With everything in shooting consistency is key, and with a taper crimp die the shells need to be of the same length for a uniform crimp from one shot to the next because of the way it applies the crimp. Over on the 450 bushmaster forum a poster made/modified a lee collet crimp die and that would be even better but I don't know if lee makes a 460 factory crimp die... something to check on, as it would not be as important for the cases to be the same length for a uniform crimp.
With everything in shooting consistency is key, and with a taper crimp die the shells need to be of the same length for a uniform crimp from one shot to the next because of the way it applies the crimp. Over on the 450 bushmaster forum a poster made/modified a lee collet crimp die and that would be even better but I don't know if lee makes a 460 factory crimp die... something to check on, as it would not be as important for the cases to be the same length for a uniform crimp.
I was inspired and took the 44 to the range today.
Tested the crimped and non crimped together. Now I am not so inspired...
At 100 the crimped MAY have shot a little better but it was hard to tell as all my groups were 1.5-2 inches. I hooked up the magnetospeed for a few and recorded 1733 for both. The weird thing was the crimped rounds were impacting about 1.5 inches higher than the non crimped and at doesn't make much sense. If the velocity is the same it would seem they should be impacting to the same location... So in short I didn't see a difference other than that.
Tested the crimped and non crimped together. Now I am not so inspired...
At 100 the crimped MAY have shot a little better but it was hard to tell as all my groups were 1.5-2 inches. I hooked up the magnetospeed for a few and recorded 1733 for both. The weird thing was the crimped rounds were impacting about 1.5 inches higher than the non crimped and at doesn't make much sense. If the velocity is the same it would seem they should be impacting to the same location... So in short I didn't see a difference other than that.
Miles Coyote,
I have a RCBS 3 die set that has crimping ability. I've been throwing, weighing and trickling to get accurate loads and the velocities haven't been that consistent. Thought the crimps might let the powder burn and pressure build more consistently? The powder is so fine I also wonder if it packs on one side or lays wierd in the casing, then lights up somewhat randomly?
Let me know if you get any interesting results with the crimps if you would. What powder are you using?
I have a RCBS 3 die set that has crimping ability. I've been throwing, weighing and trickling to get accurate loads and the velocities haven't been that consistent. Thought the crimps might let the powder burn and pressure build more consistently? The powder is so fine I also wonder if it packs on one side or lays wierd in the casing, then lights up somewhat randomly?
Let me know if you get any interesting results with the crimps if you would. What powder are you using?
In my 44 mag I am using VV n110, only because I don't have enough 296 or H110 to do more than test a few rounds. My case volume with n110 if near 100% so you may have better luck or in other words get better results by crimping than I did... and like I heard over on the 450 bushmaster forum, they speak highly of crimping for better results.
That is interesting, while looking for 2400 powder today I read that crimping makes the pressure build a little and gives more consistent speeds. Looks like I better try crimping.
Anybody near Mich have Alliant 2400 powder they want to sell or have you seen any in local sports stores? Can't find it on the net, but did find Fed 210 Match Large Rifle Primers at Bruno's though - so that was a good find!
Tried crimping 7 bullets with my best to date load of 46.5 grains and got a 5" wide x 2.5" tall group at 200 yds, so crimping didn't help much. Two hit the same hole, and 5 were in a 2.5" group, but two were fliers. Could have been operator error cause I called one of those fliers.
I'm thinking it's a 200 - 250 yd gun but not much farther.
I'm thinking it's a 200 - 250 yd gun but not much farther.
I just ordered a couple of barrel blanks with intentions of building a Savage in .460, but using a .308 bolt head with the 45 Raptor brass.
Keep us updated... This may be what I do for next year, remage style.
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I am starting to look at the 45 Raptor too. Better ballistics than the others and capable of using a 308 bolt face. Hell I wouldn't care about cutting down some 308 brass to use. Just have to find a barrel that I can spin on my Savage for around the same price you can get one to go on an AR10 platform is the trick.
I bought a Encore 20" factory barrel. Loaded with Hornady 225 FTX bullet I get 2658 FPS. Using the Hornady site ballistic program I sight in for zero at 200 yds and that about 3.8" high at 100 yds. I can only shoot 200 yds deer hunting on my farm.
Last night I shot a big doe at 75 yds and hit a little high and totally destroyed the liver. The liver just exploded. This ends my 2017 deer season and I already took a 10 pt buck with a crossbow.
My son is building a 450 BM on a AR. But I see no reason for more than 1 shot anyway. I also looked at a AR in 357 AR with is a 357 maximum rimless. But with a 140 gr bullet at 2200-2300 FPS my 460 S&W out preforms it hands down.
Last night I shot a big doe at 75 yds and hit a little high and totally destroyed the liver. The liver just exploded. This ends my 2017 deer season and I already took a 10 pt buck with a crossbow.
My son is building a 450 BM on a AR. But I see no reason for more than 1 shot anyway. I also looked at a AR in 357 AR with is a 357 maximum rimless. But with a 140 gr bullet at 2200-2300 FPS my 460 S&W out preforms it hands down.
Older thread I see but for what its worth the 450 Bushmaster has been pretty easy to load for 2400+ FPS out of the 250 FTX. 300 yard + effective killing range and i was able to shoot well under MOA @ 400 yards back when i had my bushy 16" upper and that was at like 2275 fps. Im just waiting for Cutting Edge to make a tipped Maxima. just picked up a christensen arms mesa 450 and going out today to do a ladder test.
.560 pooperdino builderbinos
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