6.5 CM reloading issues....

[Freediver111]

So while I'm not the most experienced reloader, I'm not a complete newbie. This issue has me scratching my head a little though.

I'm using Lapua brass, all once or twice fired, 47.2 gr. RL26, CCI450's, COAL 2.855", 0.02" off the lands, and Hornady ELD-X 143's.

So my buddy and I hit the range yesterday afternoon. A little on the cold side and moderate winds. Check zero, good, start shooting 600-1,000. Noticed some weird shots hitting low, then without adjusting I'd be right on at 1,000. Decided to re-check zero at 100. Shoot two and they're a touch low, but pretty good, then shoot a third and it's way high. Around 1.5-2" high. Shoot again and high, shoot again and back down to my first 2 that were a touch low but not bad. WTH!

I also had 2 FTF, which is a first for me. Get home and check things out. Not the scope or the mounts, those are solid. Pulled the bullets from the FTF rounds and a clump of powder was stuck at the bottom in each. Ok, I do recall rushing case prep and didn't do the best cleaning job, so maybe some case lube media was left.

One thing to note is my neck tension is terrible. I'm using RCBS FL dies and I'm going to switch to Redding Type S for sure. I measured the bullets and they're 0.263", where my case necks are being re-sized to 0.257". That seems like a lot of tension.

Any other tips and tricks I should look at? We were shooting prone, which shouldn't cause any issues. I'm using the RCBS seating die as well, and check my seatings and they're all pretty spot on. Slight variations, but minor.

Also, I know some of you might thinks it's powder weight variations, but it's not. I measure each charge and trickle up to 47.2. Using a RCBS hand scale and check zero after every 50 rounds. I would be shocked if it's a powder charge variation. I'm meticulous in that aspect.

Can neck tension cause crazy jumps in velocity? What other issues could it be? Inconsistent seating depths? Should I also move to a Redding seating die?

Thanks for any insight!

 

[jg6.5]

"...all once or twice fired..."

Are the once and twice fired brass mixed in with each other? Going out on a limb here, but it might be related to annealing. The case neck is going to be more work hardened than a once fired case because it's been through a sizing die more than the once fired.

 

[Freediver111]

So we were using two batches of reloads. We started with a once fired load, but ran out of those after 15 shots. Switched to the twice fired ones and that's where we noticed the issues. The high/low variations were all noticed with the twice fired brass.

 

[jg6.5]

Figured as much, but just thought I'd ask to make sure.

You could anneal to bring the brass back to a virgin state. Also, if you haven't already (didn't see it mentioned), invest in a brass trimmer and trim your brass all to equal length.

 

[Freediver111]

I didn't mention it but I do trim the brass to spec. Not using a fancy tool, just the Lee insert one, but I trim all to length and deburr/chamfer the ends.
I think I'll order the Redding Type S die and competition seating die as well.
I'll get some tempilac and give annealing a go. Any issues using the cheap way of annealing with a drill and propane torch?

 

[jg6.5]

To be honest, I've never annealed yet. Never realized how much of an effect it can have until the past few years, and during that time I hit a lull in shooting and handloading (selling a house, moving in with in-laws temporarily while new house was being built, etc).

Only issue I can really see with the torch and tempilac method is consistency. Inevitably you'll heat one a little longer than another one or vice versa. If you're bent on getting your own setup, you could look into a benchsource annealer which uses flame, or an AMP annealer that is flameless (fair warning, the AMP annealer is around $1,000 but supposedly incredibly consistent).

Another option is outsourcing. There are guys out there that will anneal for cents per case plus shipping.

 

[Freediver111]

One last question: So now I have around 50 loaded cases that are not shooting consistently. I'm fine pulling them all and starting fresh, but how the heck am I going to get the neck tension back up to specs? They've been sized with my RCBS die and neck tension is too tight. Is there a way to open them up a bit and re-do the sizing with a Type S die to get them back to a more open tension? Or just shoot them and start fresh with the new equipment?

 

[jg6.5]

You could pull the bullets and powder to save as much as you can, not sure what to do about the primer as I've never had to remove one that wasn't fired. Maybe fire the empty case in the rifle?

After that, you could send them off to be annealed or try your hand with the torch and tempilac, then run them through a die again. I wouldn't go running out to buy a new set of dies just yet unless you just want to, I've had decent luck with RCBS dies in the past. Your neck size could have something to do with spring back, meaning the work hardened brass is more resistant to expanding out to the full diameter of the expander ball. What diameter is the expander ball on your current die?

 

[Freediver111]

Not sure the diameter honestly. I can tell you this though, the Hornady ELD-X's measure 0.263", and my resized cases have an opening of 0.257". My finished cartridge has an outside neck diameter of 0.291". Reading about the importance of neck tension, I see the standard is to get a tension of .002", which means I need a bushing die of 0.289"......I'll have to go home this evening and take an outside diameter measurement of the resized brass to see how far off I am.

 

[spife7980]

One thing to note is my neck tension is terrible. I'm using RCBS FL dies and I'm going to switch to Redding Type S for sure. I measured the bullets and they're 0.263", where my case necks are being re-sized to 0.257". That seems like a lot of tension.

Before spending money on new dies lets try and address your current ones first and figure out where it went wrong.

Your case necks measure .257 coming out of the rcbs die? Thats the outside or inside diameter of a sized case? Do you have the expander ball removed? I can see if sizing them down that far (if .257 is the internal diameter) but the expander ball should open them back up to the proper diameter around .262 (again, internal dimension).

Its easiest to take one dimension and keep its reporting consistent, for neck sizing I like the external diameter. Lapua 6.5 brass should be ~.014 thick, could be more could be less but the process is the same. If the brass is .014 thick it will have a loaded case diameter of .292 (.264 bullet diameter +.014 neck thickness on one side + .014 on the other side of the neck) If our loaded diameter is .292 then you would expect the sized brass to measure around .290.

Take some measurements and get those numbers back to us. Its tough to measure the inside of the neck without pin gauges. Its tough to measure the neck thickness of one wall with calipers, taking the outside diameters with calipers are much easier.

Any other tips and tricks I should look at? We were shooting prone, which shouldn't cause any issues.

It absolutely can if you dont have your fundamentals down square. If this is a light hunting rifle then I would say its probably you, if its heavier then it should settle down in the bags a bit more but thats far from a guarantee.

 

[Freediver111]

Before spending money on new dies lets try and address your current ones first and figure out where it went wrong.

Your case necks measure .257 coming out of the rcbs die? Thats the outside or inside diameter of a sized case? Do you have the expander ball removed? I can see if sizing them down that far (if .257 is the internal diameter) but the expander ball should open them back up to the proper diameter around .262 (again, internal dimension).

Its easiest to take one dimension and keep its reporting consistent, for neck sizing I like the external diameter. Lapua 6.5 brass should be ~.014 thick, could be more could be less but the process is the same. If the brass is .014 thick it will have a loaded case diameter of .292 (.264 bullet diameter +.014 neck thickness on one side + .014 on the other side of the neck) If our loaded diameter is .292 then you would expect the sized brass to measure around .290.

Take some measurements and get those numbers back to us. Its tough to measure the inside of the neck without pin gauges. Its tough to measure the neck thickness of one wall with calipers, taking the outside diameters with calipers are much easier.



It absolutely can if you dont have your fundamentals down square. If this is a light hunting rifle then I would say its probably you, if its heavier then it should settle down in the bags a bit more but thats far from a guarantee.

1) Inside neck case measurement is 0.257", but as you said, probably not super accurate since I'm using plain old digital calipers.
2) RCBS dies are as new from factory. Expander ball is in.
3) Loaded case with ELD-X measured 0.291"-0.2915".

I'll re-measure tonight to get outside diameters when I get home of some re-sized brass.

I'll be the first to admit shooting prone is new to me. I decided to shoot that way since I'll be in that position when hunting so might as well mimic a real life situation. While I'm FAR from a pro, I watched a few videos and tried to get the fundamentals established. I was/am worried that there is a velocity change based on positioning. I need to work on that for sure. I watched some vids from Frank and others on Youtube, so in theory I'm pretty much an expert now! (I kid....).

Thanks for the detailed response! I appreciate all the help I can get.

 

[spife7980]

1) Inside neck case measurement is 0.257", but as you said, probably not super accurate since I'm using plain old digital calipers.
2) RCBS dies are as new from factory. Expander ball is in.
3) Loaded case with ELD-X measured 0.291"-0.2915".
.

Ok, so if the .291-.2915 is accurate then the cases are .0135-.01375 in wall thickness so just a hair lower than my guess.
You might also notice that it could measure .013 for neck thickness in one spot but another spot gives .014" (.290-.292). Thats just neck thickness discrepancies and the reason that people turn their necks; nothing to concern yourself with, just an enlightening side point. Crap brass could be .002-.003 in variation, the lapua is about as good as it gets for factory and not the cause of your issue.
I like to take a little piece of scratch paper to jot notes on and measure a set of 5-10 cases depending on how particular you are (and how much free time you have) and see where the average center is and allows you to sample the variation in your brass. Getting numbers is helpful when it comes down to adding them all up

I would say to check the rifles bedding as that can be a culprit in the two groups phenomenon but if the first batch you shot were fine then its not the on forefront of the reasons to check on. Id suspect neck tension most.

You also got a couple of ftf and you suspect lube contamination, there could be something to this in several different ways. One, powder could be damp and clumpy and that could effect burn rates obviously OR you could have lubed them inconsistently and some the ball slid through easily and the others were more of a dragging and the internal surface and sized dimensions could vary a tad from that. Not the largest factor but still something to ponder and make note of in the future for case to case consistency.

 

[Freediver111]

Ok, so if the .291-.2915 is accurate then the cases are .0135-.01375 in wall thickness so just a hair lower than my guess.
You might also notice that it could measure .013 for neck thickness in one spot but another spot gives .014" (.290-.292). Thats just neck thickness discrepancies and the reason that people turn their necks; nothing to concern yourself with, just an enlightening side point. Crap brass could be .002-.003 in variation, the lapua is about as good as it gets for factory and not the cause of your issue.
I like to take a little piece of scratch paper to jot notes on and measure a set of 5-10 cases depending on how particular you are (and how much free time you have) and see where the average center is and allows you to sample the variation in your brass. Getting numbers is helpful when it comes down to adding them all up

I would say to check the rifles bedding as that can be a culprit in the two groups phenomenon but if the first batch you shot were fine then its not the on forefront of the reasons to check on. Id suspect neck tension most.

You also got a couple of ftf and you suspect lube contamination, there could be something to this in several different ways. One, powder could be damp and clumpy and that could effect burn rates obviously OR you could have lubed them inconsistently and some the ball slid through easily and the others were more of a dragging and the internal surface and sized dimensions could vary a tad from that. Not the largest factor but still something to ponder and make note of in the future for case to case consistency.

Ok, sized brass outside diameter is 0.289” to 0.2885”. So finished brass is 0.291”....meaning I’m pretty darn close to a 0.002” tension. Does that make a Redding type S die an added expense that’s not going to get me any realistic gains?

Maybe this boils down to a crappy job cleaning and some of the fancy new DIY case lube is screwing me on this batch!??? Maybe it’s an inconsistent position when in prone?? Great, now I’m back to wondering what’s going on.

 

[spife7980]

if you were to remove the expander ball you might find your die squeezes the neck down as much as .010 and then the expanderball opens it back up. The type s will allow you to eliminate your overworking of the brass. That said it doesn’t sound like your gross sizing is the problem.

Are you doing the 10 or 11:1 ratio of lanolin to 90% iso lube mix?

Are you certain that the first batch was the exact same load or actually shot well to start with? I doubt you have more of it to test again. If you know it was perfect and isn’t now then maybe it’s your scope or rear bag. I say shoot the rest of them and work on your technique to see if you can wring some consistency out of them. Maybe it was just a bad day

 

[Freediver111]

if you were to remove the expander ball you might find your die squeezes the neck down as much as .010 and then the expanderball opens it back up. The type s will allow you to eliminate your overworking of the brass. That said it doesn’t sound like your gross sizing is the problem.

Are you doing the 10 or 11:1 ratio of lanolin to 90% iso lube mix?

Are you certain that the first batch was the exact same load or actually shot well to start with? I doubt you have more of it to test again. If you know it was perfect and isn’t now then maybe it’s your scope or rear bag. I say shoot the rest of them and work on your technique to see if you can wring some consistency out of them. Maybe it was just a bad day

I’m using 10:1 mix with Heet.
I’m certain the loads are the same. Well, one thing I recall is I turned my size down a hair because I was having some tight bolt issues. The other batch was not neck sized enough so I turned it down a hair more on the last batch.

Shooting prone is new to me. This whole set up is new to me in a sense. I’m just getting into LR shooting so I’m pretty green.

All that being said and assuming a lot of issues yesterday has to do with form/position, is it “worth” investing in a Redding type s sizer and competition seater?

I have a cart ready to go with the Redding 2 die set, bullet comparator, #1 shell holder from Redding, and Hornady neck size gauge. Basically the full set of tools mentioned in one of the above threads on precision reloading. It’s $300.

Will is see some gains in accuracy with all these tools over the RCBS kit I have, or am I throwing money at an issue that’s better solved with a lot more range time? That’s a big debate for me right now.....

 

[spife7980]

It’s not worth it at this point. But hornady neck size gauge? You mean the headspace bushing and bullet comparator? In that case yes, get those or the Sinclair version(samething). If you don’t have those then you don’t actually know how much you’re sizing down or where the bullet is actually sitting on the ogive where it meets the lands.

 

[Freediver111]

It’s not worth it at this point. But hornady neck size gauge? You mean the headspace bushing and bullet comparator? In that case yes, get those or the Sinclair version(samething). If you don’t have those then you don’t actually know how much you’re sizing down or where the bullet is actually sitting on the ogive where it meets the lands.

Yes I meant the headspace gauge to get the proper sizing of the neck. Trying to avoid the issue I have now where my neck wasn’t sized down enough and I was having tight bolt closing.

Along with the Hornady gauges to measure from the ogive rather than tip to base length.

Kind of surprised you don’t recommend upgrading from my RCBS to the Redding’s type S and competition seater. The way they review them you’d think it was the next best thing to sliced bread for precision reloading.

 

[jg6.5]

If you have access to a chronograph, that might be able to help with the diagnostics as well to look for spikes in velocity (i.e. high SD/ES values).

 

[spife7980]

The type s are really nice, there’s just nothing wrong with your current dies.

And the hornady kit doesn’t measure the neck at all, it slides down around the neck without touching it and serves as a datum to measure the shoulders with at a consistent point in each case.

Edit:

 

[Freediver111]

The type s are really nice, there’s just nothing wrong with your current dies.

And the hornady kit doesn’t measure the neck at all, it slides down around the neck without touching it and serves as a datum to measure the shoulders with at a consistent point in each case.

Edit:

^^^ Thats what I'm trying to achieve by getting the Hornady Comparator and headspace gauge. Without those tools, I was kind of blindly resizing and had some headspace issues. By buying the comparator and headspace gauge, my plan is to get an accurate measurement of the fired case with the headspace gauge, and then be able to set the die to bump them down .002".....Thats the best way of doing this right?

Again, I apologize for using incorrect terminology. My reloading for the last few years has been with a .270 and .338 WM. I never had issues with those just using a very basic RCBS set. The 6.5 CM has proven a little more touchy when it comes to getting the right sized down without tight bolt issues.

I really appreciate all the responses. I'm learning a lot. I decided to go ahead and buy the Hornady Comparator, Headspace bushing, and comparator insert. I initially measured the COAL to the lands using the old school method of lightly seating a bullet, insert in the chamber, and see how long the package comes out after seating itself to the lands. I confirmed the measurement by using a Frankford Arsenal COAL gauge. My buddy has one and while cheap, I measured 10 times using both methods and came out to a consistent measurement of 2.875"OAL, and I tested accuracy seating bullets at varying OL's. I found 0.02" off the lands to be a nice spot and they fit in my mags well so stuck with that. All measurements taken from tip to base, so I'll have to re-do the measuring process with the comparator to get a better number off the ogive.

All this seems to be a reasonable process right?

Thanks!

 

[Freediver111]

If you have access to a chronograph, that might be able to help with the diagnostics as well to look for spikes in velocity (i.e. high SD/ES values).

I did use one months ago when developing a load. I don't have a fancy one, just the Chrony F1 model. The SD/ES values were not great, but I'm not sure how accurate that chrono is to trust it implicitly. When I was first developing a load, I had 5 cartridges made up running RL26 from 46, 46.5, 47, and 47.5 grains. My best ES/SD looked like this with 47 grains: error reading shot one, 2,936, 2897, 2923, 2898. ES 39, SD 19...the other loads had higher SD/ES, so played around with loads in the 46.8, 47, and 47.2 range. 47.2 seemed to the sweet spot for accuracy so stuck with that but haven't re-checked speeds.

Again, I wasn't super confident in the readings I was getting from the F1. These were in virgin lapua brass. I'll try taking readings again with the 47.2 gr rounds and see what's up.

 

[spife7980]

By buying the comparator and headspace gauge, my plan is to get an accurate measurement of the fired case with the headspace gauge, and then be able to set the die to bump them down .002".....Thats the best way of doing this right?

Correct, getting some empirical data from which to work off of instead of shooting in the dark.

All measurements taken from tip to base, so I'll have to re-do the measuring process with the comparator to get a better number off the ogive.

You dont necessarily have to remeasure entirely. You could also load a few with the same as before without changing anything since you were confident in your prior findings but then measure them off of the ogive so that you have a reference to what your past measurements have been.

I find that seating bullets by the ogive is much more consistent, my oal lengths can vary by up to .01 in a certain instances with the same exact die setting but my ogive numbers rarely vary by more than .001-2 from round to round. It helps mitigate the bullet to bullet discrepancies. What we are worried about is where the bullet meets the lands so it makes sense to measure as close to that point as we can, no?

If you do want to remeasure the whole thing from the ground up I find this way is easiest so long as you dont have a savage which design precludes this method with its floating head bolt design.

 

[Freediver111]

Correct, getting some empirical data from which to work off of instead of shooting in the dark.



You dont necessarily have to remeasure entirely. You could also load a few with the same as before without changing anything since you were confident in your prior findings but then measure them off of the ogive so that you have a reference to what your past measurements have been.

I find that seating bullets by the ogive is much more consistent, my oal lengths can vary by up to .01 in a certain instances with the same exact die setting but my ogive numbers rarely vary by more than .001-2 from round to round. It helps mitigate the bullet to bullet discrepancies. What we are worried about is where the bullet meets the lands so it makes sense to measure as close to that point as we can, no?

If you do want to remeasure the whole thing from the ground up I find this way is easiest so long as you dont have a savage which design precludes this method with its floating head bolt design.

Savage what now????!!!! I have a Savage.....so what does that change? Everything? You're killing me!

 

[spife7980]

Savage what now????!!!! I have a Savage.....so what does that change? Everything? You're killing me!

Just ignore that video then.
The savage bolt head is held in by a cross pin and that cross pin is retained in place by the firing pin. The bolt handle attaches to the other end of the firing pin. The point of that video is to remove the firing pinto relieve firing pin pressure. If you remove the firing pin from a savage bolt then it wont hold itself together nor offer you any way to rotate the bolt and lock the lugs in.

 

[jg6.5]

I did use one months ago when developing a load. I don't have a fancy one, just the Chrony F1 model. The SD/ES values were not great, but I'm not sure how accurate that chrono is to trust it implicitly. When I was first developing a load, I had 5 cartridges made up running RL26 from 46, 46.5, 47, and 47.5 grains. My best ES/SD looked like this with 47 grains: error reading shot one, 2,936, 2897, 2923, 2898. ES 39, SD 19...the other loads had higher SD/ES, so played around with loads in the 46.8, 47, and 47.2 range. 47.2 seemed to the sweet spot for accuracy so stuck with that but haven't re-checked speeds.

Again, I wasn't super confident in the readings I was getting from the F1. These were in virgin lapua brass. I'll try taking readings again with the 47.2 gr rounds and see what's up.

Those SD/ES numbers are on par with some factory ammo, so not necessarily god-awful, but lower values shouldn't be hard to attain once the bugs are worked out.

 

[Freediver111]

Those SD/ES numbers are on par with some factory ammo, so not necessarily god-awful, but lower values shouldn't be hard to attain once the bugs are worked out.

So what are some tips to lower the ES/SD? Obviously annealing wasn't a factor since it was virgin brass. Will the Redding dies help that? Try and load more rounds with varying powder?

I'll set-up the chrony again soon and take a few readings with the latest batch and see what's up.

 

[jg6.5]

So what are some tips to lower the ES/SD? Obviously annealing wasn't a factor since it was virgin brass. Will the Redding dies help that? Try and load more rounds with varying powder?

I'll set-up the chrony again soon and take a few readings with the latest batch and see what's up.

I have a 308 that I use for FTR that has been giving me awful (and I mean awful) SD/ES numbers. Virgin lapua brass, trimmed to length, turned necks...after investigation and some advice from this forum, it's looking like I don't have enough neck tension (without going into too much detail, we'll chalk it up to me being inexperienced with bushing dies). Haven't tested the last batch of handloads for it yet, so I can't comment on if it worked yet.

Other than turning necks, which isn't necessarily 100% mandatory given the consistency of lapua brass, you seem to be approaching everything in the right manner. After reading back through the responses and coming back across the lube/powder clump in the FTF's, I'm wondering if there's some contamination that is affecting things.