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6.5cm brass for those that don’t anneal...???

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ssteve

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Jan 8, 2011
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Just purchased a Bergara hmr in 6.5cm and acquiring stuff to reload for it. Not sure what size firing pin it has but looking for guidance on purchasing brass. I know Lapua is considered the pinnacle for precision work but I’m wondering if it’s worth the investment for someone who won’t be annealing their brass and is mostly just a weekend warrior/hunter? Also small rifle vs large rifle primers for my rifle?

Initially I will be loading up 143gr eld-x’s as that’s what I would like to try and hunt with, and I have a couple kegs of h4350 I’ll be using.
 
There is a SH user that will anneal for you for a small fee. If you are using high end brass, one of the major benefits is longevity but annealing is a must for that to work. Alpha munitions did a test of SRP vs. LRP. If I remember correctly, SRP won in terms of longevity (lower chance of loose primers, more metal for the pocket), but it was a wash when it cane to consistency and accuracy.
 
Any info to who will anneal for me? Is that something that can be done say every 3-4 firings or does it need to be done every time?
 
ssteve said:
Any info to who will anneal for me? Is that something that can be done say every 3-4 firings or does it need to be done every time?
Click to expand...

Its a sticky up at the top of this forum https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/brass-cleaning-and-annealing-for-sh-members.6252673/

It can be done as often as you want.
Some say that annealing every time brings the brass back to the same baseline each time, that equals consistency on each loading.
Some say that every 3-5 times will be enough to save your necks from splitting.
Some say its a waste of time entirely.

Depends entirely on what you are hoping to achieve with it.




You can measure your firing pin and see what it is, normal american .075" or small european .062.
And its also not just the firing pin size alone as the fitment of the firing pin to the hole, they work together.
You can have the smallest pin in the world but if its a sloppy fit youre still going to have primers cratering.
You can have the tightest fit in the world but if the round is too much pressure on too large of a pin it will push the pin back and your primers will flow into the hole.

 
Just buy factory Hornady ammo, if it runs you can hunt with it. If not, you have decent brass.
 
I’m not interested in factory ammo. I already have everything except brass to reload.
 
Hornady. It’s cheaper and won’t last as long as Lapua anyway. It’s what I’m loading creedmoor with right now and accuracy is still excellent after 3 firings without annealing
 
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If you want top tier brass the Norma Match ammo is a steal. You can't even buy the Norma brass for less than you can buy the ammo. I don't even have my rifle built yet but bought some of the Norma Match 130hpbt ammo yesterday and it will be my go to brass in large primer and buy Lapua for small primer.
 
XLR308 said:
If you want top tier brass the Norma Match ammo is a steal. You can't even buy the Norma brass for less than you can buy the ammo. I don't even have my rifle built yet but bought some of the Norma Match 130hpbt ammo yesterday and it will be my go to brass in large primer and buy Lapua for small primer.
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Prime should be the same brass as Norma. It is definately a great value for the money. My son has 7 loads on some of his Prime brass, and he just annealed it for the first time before the last loading.
 
If you are planning on expecting consistency with MV through the life of your brass, consistency with bullet seating depth, etc then annealing is required.
 
spife7980 said:
Someone that cant put a flash hole in the center of the case and likes to break decapping pins. Just be aware of that and check the cases before you blindly throw them in your dies.
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LOL, can't speak for any other cartridge but the 68spc brass they make is very good, good enough that Hornady trusts it.
 
A lesser man might respond to that with “You say that like it’s a good thing”

I’m just saying, they have a bad rap and the box of 223 I bought to check out for a decent factory offering didn’t do anything to change that imo. I put a micrometer on them afterwards and they did not impress. Norma tac shot better and the cases are nicer and it’s on sale for an equivalent price. And like you stated originally as I read up again, norma can be had for equivalent prices and would be a far superior option given the choice.
 
spife7980 said:
A lesser man might respond to that with “You say that like it’s a good thing”

I’m just saying, they have a bad rap and the box of 223 I bought to check out for a decent factory offering didn’t impress when when I put a micrometer on them afterwards.
Click to expand...

Not questioning your experience and I've been called worse than a lesser man;) Any manufacturer is capable of putting out some lemons though.
 
Buy the Lapua. Even if you don’t anneal you’ll get 7-8 firings at minimum. Probably more if you’re not running really hot loads. I didn’t anneal for years and did just fine.

Also, you can use a drill and a butane torch for $12 and do a good enough job if you want to anneal. Many good shooters still do that.

As far as large firing pin bs small, I personally have not seen a difference with Lapua. I’m on my 2nd 6.5cm and both have had large firing pins. I’ve never had an issue with piercing primers and I know many others that have had the same results.
 
Looking at Peterson's study that they performed... It kinda makes it seem like annealing won't necessarily improve accuracy or consistency. Sure, the neck tension increased as the number of firing increased, but the velocities were staying consistent which is the main goal.

But potentially with a few more firings, they might have experienced cracked necks that regular annealing could have prevented, but they didn't extend the study to look at that.

Also note that for their study they had to re-size the neck after firing, AND after performing the neck tension test because their apparatus effectively inserted a bullet into the sized necks. They were essentially neck sizing twice per firing which means the increase in neck tension could be a bit more gradual than what their study shows.

And to the guy who thinks that you can't get 7-8 firings without annealing... I had 7-8 firings on Federal 308 brass no problem, and I was planning to keep going until I sold my 308. Never even saw the slightest indication that my necks were about to start cracking. I think its pretty common to get 10+ reloads on brass without annealing. Maybe not if you are FLS every time with a standard die and expander button, but certainly with honed FLS dies, proper neck bushings, mandrels or a collet die.
 
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Annealing is something that I would love to get into eventually but I haven't gotten around to it yet. That being said I'm on my 8th loading on my 260 Lapua brass and I haven't seen a split neck yet. My SD was also a massive 3.3 and ES was 8 the last time I checked with my magnetospeed.
 
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HoustonB77 said:
Annealing is something that I would love to get into eventually but I haven't gotten around to it yet. That being said I'm on my 8th loading on my 260 Lapua brass and I haven't seen a split neck yet. My SD was also a massive 3.3 and ES was 8 the last time I checked with my magnetospeed.
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Its certainly reassuring to see other's who are not annealing still getting consistent results as they approach double digit firings. Definitely makes you think twice before considering some $400+ annealing setup (or $1000+ for AMP).
 
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6.5 guys did a review of the Lapua brass where they fired one case 20 times without annealing. One case is a small sample size, so take from this what you will.
6.5 Guys Review
 
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Another Casual said:
6.5 guys did a review of the Lapua brass where they fired one case 20 times without annealing. One case is a small sample size, so take from this what you will.
6.5 Guys Review
Click to expand...
I'd bet a lot of money 6.5 guys anneal their own brass, so them running a test is just a way of them making a new vid with useless info.
Every one of us has become experts in annealing, and in the last 5 yrs we've went from annealing necks to annealing shoulders to control bumps too. People shot and got longevity out of brass long before annealing machines came along. Brass changes properties the more it is fired and worked, if you're not annealing and want 15 firings out of brass with consistency, you'll just need to control the springback that is a result of not softening it back up. More neck tension and screw the die down a little to ensure the bump holds.
 
WRT to SRP vs. LRP I believe what I read was essentially this:

LRP: Higher velocity (50fps), less case life
SRP: Lower velocity (-50fps avg) but very long case life (assuming case necks are annealed)

IIRC AMP also did a test on annealing and produced some interesting results. Annealing didn't make rounds more accurate (actually, it slightly degraded it, but only at a minuscule level). What it did show however (if annealed after every firing), was a high degree of consistency in neck tension.

IMHO, this long range game is all about consistency.
 
MarinePMI said:
IIRC AMP also did a test on annealing and produced some interesting results. Annealing didn't make rounds more accurate (actually, it slightly degraded it, but only at a minuscule level). What it did show however (if annealed after every firing), was a high degree of consistency in neck tension.

IMHO, this long range game is all about consistency.
Click to expand...
You have a link to the test? Tests sometimes not conclusive, say you have load of a lifetime with new Lapua brass, then anneal after first firing, and not as good. May not be all in the anneal, hard to duplicate a new brass anneal job to start with, then we have neck tensions, a caliper here is not the answer. I anneal every firing, to keep things the same, the accuracy more than acceptable, now if I was shooting BR or F class, may not be.
 
Couple of things.
I have used Lapua brass on a a Bergara with cci 450s it craters but have no issues.
Gre-tan will not bush a Bergara bolt because they are case hardened. They are supposedly coming out with a replacement firing pin.

7-8 firings without annealing is easy if you do not push the shoulder back to far.
 
I lose primer pockets before I ever feel like I need to anneal, but I am shooting shit hornady brass and pushing it hard. If I get 3 loadings before my primer pockets are trash, I feel lucky...
 
Xander3Zero said:
Looking at Peterson's study that they performed... It kinda makes it seem like annealing won't necessarily improve accuracy or consistency. Sure, the neck tension increased as the number of firing increased, but the velocities were staying consistent which is the main goal.
.
Click to expand...


I am one of the worst communicators on the keyboard so I am in now way singling you out. Just that the paragraph really illustrates how we can get the words kinda mixed, so the meaning is lost in what annealing does for the long range shooter. Sure, testing at short range annealing might not make a huge impact in regards to precision; but that doesn't mean the conclusion is correct.

Accuracy in this discussion is best expressed as Precision. Accuracy is more the shooter in our world.. 10 shots in one hole blown several mils off center are not accurate, but still very precise. But my main point is there is an absolute oxymoron is the statement above: "velocities were staying consistent". In long range and ELR shooting, this will absolutely provide more precision in some cases a lot more.
 
Diver160651 said:
I am one of the worst communicators on the keyboard so I am in now way singling you out. Just that the paragraph really illustrates how we can get the words kinda mixed, so the meaning is lost in what annealing does for the long range shooter. Sure, testing at short range annealing might not make a huge impact in regards to precision; but that doesn't mean the conclusion is correct.

Accuracy in this discussion is best expressed as Precision. Accuracy is more the shooter in our world.. 10 shots in one hole blown several mils off center are not accurate, but still very precise. But my main point is there is an absolute oxymoron is the statement above: "velocities were staying consistent". In long range and ELR shooting, this will absolutely provide more precision in some cases a lot more.
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I'm not sure I understand your point. You're right, I probably shouldn't have mentioned accuracy in my post because their study wasn't evaluating accuracy at all. I'm quite aware of the difference between accuracy and precision.

I don't think that "velocities were staying consistent" is an oxymoron though...

My point regarding that study was that despite the quantifiable increase in neck tension as the number of firings increase without annealing, the measured velocities were remaining consistent. Consistent velocities are the one of the main end goals for precision shooting, and therefor their study seems to show that NOT annealing the necks had no perceivable effect on the resulting velocities, DESPITE it having an effect on the measured neck tension.

I mention that their study makes no conclusions regarding brass longevity, which I believe to be the more important reason to anneal.
 
Well I’m kind of invested in Norma brass now. Really wanted to get into something with small rifle primers since I have thousands of them but I ended up purchasing 200 rounds of Norma match factory ammo which I’ll use and then reload.
 
Xander3Zero said:
I'm not sure I understand your point. You're right, I probably shouldn't have mentioned accuracy in my post because their study wasn't evaluating accuracy at all. I'm quite aware of the difference between accuracy and precision.

I don't think that "velocities were staying consistent" is an oxymoron though...

My point regarding that study was that despite the quantifiable increase in neck tension as the number of firings increase without annealing, the measured velocities were remaining consistent. Consistent velocities are the one of the main end goals for precision shooting, and therefor their study seems to show that NOT annealing the necks had no perceivable effect on the resulting velocities, DESPITE it having an effect on the measured neck tension.

I mention that their study makes no conclusions regarding brass longevity, which I believe to be the more important reason to anneal.
Click to expand...


Maybe I read it wrong? I read your post as no difference in precision, but "with" annealing the velocities remained consistent.
 
Milo 2.5 said:
I'd bet a lot of money 6.5 guys anneal their own brass, so them running a test is just a way of them making a new vid with useless info.
Every one of us has become experts in annealing, and in the last 5 yrs we've went from annealing necks to annealing shoulders to control bumps too. People shot and got longevity out of brass long before annealing machines came along. Brass changes properties the more it is fired and worked, if you're not annealing and want 15 firings out of brass with consistency, you'll just need to control the springback that is a result of not softening it back up. More neck tension and screw the die down a little to ensure the bump holds.
Click to expand...

I meant it more as a testament to the durability of the brass than as a statement of what may be best practice. OP specifically said they were looking for brass without annealing, having a rough idea of the lifespan one can expect under those conditions is helpful. Whether or not the bass will be up to an individuals expectations etc treated in that fashion... I won't pretend to know. As others have said, other brands of brass get loose in the pocket before they need to be annealed. If nothing else it shows the SRP brass can outlive in that regard.
 
Milo 2.5 said:
I'd bet a lot of money 6.5 guys anneal their own brass, so them running a test is just a way of them making a new vid with useless info.
Click to expand...

In the video they specifically mention that they are not annealing or doing anything besides minor cleaning and resizing of the brass between firings. The Lapua brass that lasted more than 20 firings was not annealed by them during their test like you suggest.

That was kind of the point of the test though, was to see how long it would last without annealing (to see how long it takes for necks to split or other such problems to arise). It would defeat the entire purpose of that test if they annealed, so why do you think they were annealing their brass in the video?
 
ThePretzel said:
In the video they specifically mention that they are not annealing or doing anything besides minor cleaning and resizing of the brass between firings. The Lapua brass that lasted more than 20 firings was not annealed by them during their test like you suggest.

That was kind of the point of the test though, was to see how long it would last without annealing (to see how long it takes for necks to split or other such problems to arise). It would defeat the entire purpose of that test if they annealed, so why do you think they were annealing their brass in the video?
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I think you read it the way you wanted to read it. I said I bet they anneal their own brass they use to shoot on a regular basis, an assumption on my end though.
Annealing for most shooters has become the craze in the last 4-5 yrs, brass taken care of has always had longevity. Springback on necks and shoulders of non annealed brass has always came into play.
 
Since I am now invested in Norma brass, anyone have any feedback on how long the primer pockets are holding up and what primers you have had luck with? I feel like with LRP brass thats where its going to fail first.
 
ssteve said:
Since I am now invested in Norma brass, anyone have any feedback on how long the primer pockets are holding up and what primers you have had luck with? I feel like with LRP brass thats where its going to fail first.
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I'm sure it's like any brand, where lot to lot may be different. I had 2 - 400 ct lots of Norma 243 that seemed indestructible. I tried a 25 from a yet again a diff lot, it was going to be a shit show. When doing load development, I'll decap test rds and go off feel if the pockets will hold, if they fall out, no good, if they pop out, good to go.
I've also had Norma 6.5x284 and 6.5-06 that did not last at all, but given the pressures I subjected them to, I kind of expected it.
 
Milo 2.5 said:
I think you read it the way you wanted to read it. I said I bet they anneal their own brass they use to shoot on a regular basis, an assumption on my end though.
Annealing for most shooters has become the craze in the last 4-5 yrs, brass taken care of has always had longevity. Springback on necks and shoulders of non annealed brass has always came into play.
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Sorry, I misunderstood. I would agree that they probably anneal their brass that they use regularly. That said, the test still appears to show that Lapua 6.5 CM brass can be reloaded 10+ times without it for someone who doesn't have access to an annealer and doesn't want for pay for such a service.
 
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