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F T/R Competition 7 saum or straight 284

Ranger188

Sergeant of the Hide
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Minuteman
Dec 13, 2018
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Would like to start shooting F open, and would like to know the practical max FPS in each the saum and 284 using the 180 hybrid?
I see most everyone winning is using the 284. (that should tell me something)
Would like a little more FPS in the 7 saum though.
 
I think the standard for the 284 long action is 2800 or a bit more with a 180, this is easily obtained in my 26" hunting barrel, I have been easily up to 2950 with it using reloader 26. for me I like picking rounds the long range target guys like. they are easy to get accurate reloads. barrel life is another important consideration, the 284 guys were reporting 2k round per barrel !! that is pretty good. I wonder if that has anything to do with staying in tune.?

idahoorion
 
I shoot the 180 Berger HB in a straight 284 in a 9 twist 32" barrel. H4350 @ 51 grains gives me 2825 FPS at the muzzle (labradar). You can get around the 2K mark for barrel life if you don't push them too hard, but I have found my throat really starts going between 1600 - 1800 rounds. You may get a bit more velocity with R26, but your tradeoff will be shorter barrel life. The double based powders eat barrels, especially when you start talking about strings of 22 rounds in 30 minutes.
My gunsmith shoots the 7Rsaum with the 190's now. He is only running those at around 2800 fps. That is where the tune came in for his barrel with a 8.5 twist. You can push the 180's in the saum at 2900+ fps, but will see torque and handling problems with most guys that are pushing them at that level.

The guy who won a LR match I shot this past weekend shoots a 284 with a 9 twist Brux barrel with the 180's going 2840 at the muzzle and around 1750 at the target (shotmarker). He dropped 1 point in two days of shooting. Being able to read the conditions is still going to be the difference of doing well vs. which caliber and bullet you choose.
 
I shoot the 180 Berger HB in a straight 284 in a 9 twist 32" barrel. H4350 @ 51 grains gives me 2825 FPS at the muzzle (labradar). You can get around the 2K mark for barrel life if you don't push them too hard, but I have found my throat really starts going between 1600 - 1800 rounds. You may get a bit more velocity with R26, but your tradeoff will be shorter barrel life. The double based powders eat barrels, especially when you start talking about strings of 22 rounds in 30 minutes.
My gunsmith shoots the 7Rsaum with the 190's now. He is only running those at around 2800 fps. That is where the tune came in for his barrel with a 8.5 twist. You can push the 180's in the saum at 2900+ fps, but will see torque and handling problems with most guys that are pushing them at that level.

The guy who won a LR match I shot this past weekend shoots a 284 with a 9 twist Brux barrel with the 180's going 2840 at the muzzle and around 1750 at the target (shotmarker). He dropped 1 point in two days of shooting. Being able to read the conditions is still going to be the difference of doing well vs. which caliber and bullet you choose.

My thoughts exactly.
 
From what I hear from the Open shooters the 284Win has a couple of non-ballistic advantages and gives up little in ballistics, it's why a huge % of the Open shooters at the recent SWN were running the 284 or some wildcat version.

Brass is easier to find and cheaper
Barrel life is longer
 
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Straight 284 will do everything you need it to do at 1000 and still the most widely used caliber in F Open. For shooting the Berger 180 and 184's you need a little more freebore. JGS built my reamer using Lapua 6.5x284 as the parent case. The dimensions of the Lapua brass is slightly different than standard 284 brass. Somewhere I still have the reamer print. My rifle was built by Pierce engineering with a Scoville stock.
 
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Straight 284 will do everything you need it to do at 1000 and still the most widely used caliber in F Open. For shooting the Berger 180 and 184's you need a little more freebore. JGS built my reamer using Lapua 6.5x284 as the parent case. The dimensions of the Lapua brass is slightly different than standard 284 brass. Somewhere I still have the reamer print. My rifle was built by Pierce engineering with a Scoville stock.
Had JGS build mine as well, and use Lapua brass. More front end work prepping the brass, but what the hell; I'm retired.
284 JD - Copy.jpeg
 
Joel, looks like your freebore is .233
Do you like this while using the 180's?
My smith has a reamer with a 220
 
Joel, looks like your freebore is .233
Do you like this while using the 180's?
My smith has a reamer with a 220
Freebore is .2180 Your smith's .220 will be fine. The guy that waffle stomped all of us this last weekend used my reamer for his last two barrels, so his opinion is probably worth more than mine. I have found that it has been a good freebore for me on the 3 barrels I have had reamed with it.
Cheers
 
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Freebore on my JGS reamer is .317 which allows a little room for throat erosion over the life of the barrel while still seating the bullet bearing surface above the neck shoulder junction.
 
If you have a blueprint of the case, put it up. Do you use a rifle chambered in this caliber for LR shooting? If so, how many firings on the brass?
 
I have had a lot of both, And while both are very capable the .284 is a sure thing. The 7SAUM can be a little testy, but the .284's just seem to shoot.
RL 17 with 180 berger running 2900-2950 I always got 1800-2200 rounds and great accuracy
 
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I have had a lot of both, And while both are very capable the .284 is a sure thing. The 7SAUM can be a little testy, but the .284's just seem to shoot.
RL 17 with 180 berger running 2900-2950 I always got 1800-2200 rounds and great accuracy

Do you load at the range? I have had problems with temp changes and RL17. Loads that shot great in the cold early spring were popping primers in the heat of fall.
 
Do you load at the range? I have had problems with temp changes and RL17. Loads that shot great in the cold early spring were popping primers in the heat of fall.
No I actually do most of my load development in the spring and summer. I haven't seen the temp issues people talk about. But I do keep my ammo in a cooler to try and keep it more consistent.
 
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I've done the cooler bit too. But there's a problem with it.

If you're not careful, you can pick up condensation on the case, and loose water in a chamber can wreak havoc on brass and primers, not to mention pressure spikes generating flyers.

Wipe that chilled cartridge down and chamber/shoot it with minimal delay on truly hot days.

Greg
 
I've done the cooler bit too. But there's a problem with it.

If you're not careful, you can pick up condensation on the case, and loose water in a chamber can wreak havoc on brass and primers, not to mention pressure spikes generating flyers.

I've seen more than one person try that... I've also seen it damn near lead to tears when it blows an extractor, even on a fancy custom action, at a national/international level event.

One person persevered, albeit with some help. He'd shoot, another person would pick up the gun, a third would run a cleaning rod down the bore from the muzzle to knock out the fired case, then they'd put it back on the bags/front rest, and he'd line up and fire again. Rinse lather repeat. He got no end of $hit about having a crew-served weapon on the line... :ROFLMAO:

Wipe that chilled cartridge down and chamber/shoot it with minimal delay on truly hot days.

If the ammo is in a cooler, best to keep an absorbent cloth of some sort between the ammo and the ice pack. *And* keep a (separate) cloth handy to wipe down the rounds before putting it in the chamber.

Basically... treat it about like if you were shooting in the rain (y)

what mags to feed the .284?

For F-class? You don't...
 
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I've seen more than one person try that... I've also seen it damn near lead to tears when it blows an extractor, even on a fancy custom action, at a national/international level event.

One person persevered, albeit with some help. He'd shoot, another person would pick up the gun, a third would run a cleaning rod down the bore from the muzzle to knock out the fired case, then they'd put it back on the bags/front rest, and he'd line up and fire again. Rinse lather repeat. He got no end of $hit about having a crew-served weapon on the line... :ROFLMAO:



If the ammo is in a cooler, best to keep an absorbent cloth of some sort between the ammo and the ice pack. *And* keep a (separate) cloth handy to wipe down the rounds before putting it in the chamber.

Basically... treat it about like if you were shooting in the rain (y)



For F-class? You don't...
Not everyone shoots f class.
 
Don't be arguing with logic.
Honestly, I just saw that the thread was active, not what sub-forum it was in.
I was kicking around a .284 build, as I have a couple of .473 bolt face short actions.
One of those is a 7-08, I have found that I can push the 162's to 2900 with light ejector marks using staball 65 powder.
 
Just a guess... but for most people, running the .284 Win with the longer heavy 180+ gn bullets you'd probably want a long action. There's a reason the original .284 Win never really went anywhere, with the bullets shoved so far down in the case neck to fit in a 2.800" OAL. Not sure how well a short fat case like the .284 would play with the longer feed lips though... probably not any worse than a BR/Dasher in a regular SA, I'd imagine.
 
I've seen more than one person try that... I've also seen it damn near lead to tears when it blows an extractor, even on a fancy custom action, at a national/international level event.

One person persevered, albeit with some help. He'd shoot, another person would pick up the gun, a third would run a cleaning rod down the bore from the muzzle to knock out the fired case, then they'd put it back on the bags/front rest, and he'd line up and fire again. Rinse lather repeat. He got no end of $hit about having a crew-served weapon on the line... :ROFLMAO:



If the ammo is in a cooler, best to keep an absorbent cloth of some sort between the ammo and the ice pack. *And* keep a (separate) cloth handy to wipe down the rounds before putting it in the chamber.

Basically... treat it about like if you were shooting in the rain (y)



For F-class? You don't...

Monte; my lesson went very similar at the First SOA at Whittington in 2002.

I was shooting a factory Savage 10FP 260 using a load developed for our team by a member. It had been a hot load in testing with my gun and I had already decreased it by 1.0gr. but still seemed marginally hot. I had to ship my ammo in advance, and sent it with reservations. The day got quite hot, and I started blowing primers, and losing extractors.

But I had a couple of aces up the sleeve. I had brought a spare bolt from a 10FP 308, and we had a gunsmith attached to the team. We also had a few emergency extractors (i.e. paint can openers, with the claw on the end). So I was able to get the case out rather easily, hand the busted bolt over my shoulder and get another, working bolt, slapped into my hand. It happened several times during a couple for stages, but I still managed to get my rounds off and make respectable scores despite all the extra hustle.

It was the next day that we showed up with the ammo in the cooler. At first, it worked fine, but as the day warmed up, we were getting flyers and stiff bolts, and eventually blowing primers again. It was a WTF moment. Then we noticed the condensation on the rounds after they were out of the cooler or a couple of minutes.

Taking a chance, we started wiping down the rounds with a shop cloth before inserting the rounds into the action, and the problem was identified and solved on the spot. Getting the round off quicker seemed to help as well. Good thing we had the collected brains of Team SH, or I'd have gone home a sad boy that week.

It only happened with my rifle despite it being one of three or four from the factory with consecutive serial numbers (this was the Ghost Dancer Project at work). We never got it nailed down why mine was the oddball; but within a year I had a new 28" L-W barrel installed and it works fine now. As I understand it, Mike Duncan ended up with my old one.

My guess is that the headspace was a bit tighter with mine.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At my last serious match (2017 Berger SW LR Nationals at Ben Avery Range), I shot only the MR 600 F T/R stage using a 223; but this comment is about the 284. I scored for my squadded partner, who was shooting a custom built .284 Win (175's?). I scored him a perfect round, all X's for one of the two stages we shot together. I think he managed 12 or 13 straight, so course, according to the rules, we kept going until he dropped an X.

So the 284 has the performance, and I'd consider it an excellent choice for F Open.

With regard to velocity; it's really not such a big selling point, IMHO. As Long as the round reaches the target at a velocity above transsonic (I like a 1300fps speed at target), you're going to do fine; and what imagined advantage in wind deflection may exist, its value is buried down in the 'white noise' of deviations that also accompanies each individual shot.

It's not all just about the wind.

Note also that altitude is a big factor, since higher altitude allows a (sometimes significantly) higher speed at the target from the same equipment setup than at sea level. At my altitude of 4350ft, the difference is definitely significant. I'm getting away from the heaviest bullets and VLD designs; because at my altitude, I'm still beating their sea level performance with more conventional projectiles.

Greg
 
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Honestly, I just saw that the thread was active, not what sub-forum it was in.
I was kicking around a .284 build, as I have a couple of .473 bolt face short actions.
One of those is a 7-08, I have found that I can push the 162's to 2900 with light ejector marks using staball 65 powder.
You may get by with a short action if you are only shooting 160 grain bullets. I shoot a Borden BRMXD action with my 284 and 180 hybrids. If I have to eject a loaded round the bolt has to be pulled.
You are dealing with a 35 degree shoulder on the standard 284 case, so feeding from a magazine should not be too difficult with proper feed ramp work. I think the 7mm-08 makes more sense if you are looking at 160 grain hunting bullets. I have taken several elk with that caliber and 140 grain Swift A-frames. No shots over 300 yards.
 
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I have to pull the bolt on my 284Lapua if I have to pull a live round, even with an longer than factory ejection port. (We don’t use ejectors) It’s a pain in the ass but I got used to it shooting FagMags. If si was starting from scratch I’d use a long action.

as to the OP, AMU runs7RSAUM but they run them at 2800-2850. it’s the most consistent speed for the bullets we use and the bullets is really where the magic. (Assuming good loading technique and you can shoot) Pick your poison and find your node. Both will work but I agree that 284win and 284 with a blown out body taper/ shoulder angle (insert you custom name for the same shit everyone else is using here) is king of the hill right now.
 
Both will work but I agree that 284win and 284 with a blown out body taper/ shoulder angle (insert you custom name for the same shit everyone else is using here) is king of the hill right now.
We shot a palma match yesterday: 2X (8,9,1000). 7 of us shooting open with either a 284 variant or a 7 SAUM. Two of the guys are on the US open team, both shooting straight 284's. The SAUM's finished at the bottom of scoring. Even the guys who have found that shooting the SAUM in the 2780 - 2830 FPS gives more consistent accuracy, are struggling to beat the 284's. My gunsmith who has been shooting a 7 SAUM all year is going back to a 284 for next year.