The chances are higher for a crap lot to produce a great group than a great lot producing a crap group. Similar to a broken clock being right twice a day.I think a question raised earlier was interesting.
If a great 5 shot group tells you nothing what does a crap 5 shot tell you?
- Thread starter iodine
- Start date
I think a question raised earlier was interesting.
If a great 5 shot group tells you nothing what does a crap 5 shot tell you?
That y'er basing y'er opinion on too small a sample size.
What happened with the other 45 shots?
Just like posting a single 5 shot bughole and claiming "all day long".
Was the good or bad group actually representative of the ammunition quality,
or was it a random act of accuracy, good or bad? Did ya' catch a gust or two?
Did the chronograph numbers back up the results?
Did visual inspection show cartridge problems?
If a great 5 shot group tells you nothing what does a crap 5 shot tell you?
That y'er basing y'er opinion on too small a sample size.
What happened with the other 45 shots?
Just like posting a single 5 shot bughole and claiming "all day long".
Was the good or bad group actually representative of the ammunition quality,
or was it a random act of accuracy, good or bad? Did ya' catch a gust or two?
Did the chronograph numbers back up the results?
Did visual inspection show cartridge problems?
After years of shooting and comparing 22 ammo and rifles with my old Marine buddy, we have come to these conclusions:
Life is too short to be shooting cheap ammo.
One poster said his rifle does not "feel" or "prefer" anything, but I can assure him that you can take two examples of the same make and model of a good 22 rifle, and each of them will show different ammo preferences.
Eley Tenex can disappoint when compared with Eley Match, the next step down. That I believe is because of the statistical testing one poster explained. Match is simply down graded Tenex. Team is down-graded Match. My bud and I each had a couple of bricks of Team that shot the daylights out of the higher priced Eley. The next brick we buy, if we can find any, probably will not do so.
The infinite variety of results is what makes 22 rifle benchrest so endlessly fascinating for old buzzards like us. You will never get there. Truly a lifetime hobby.
Life is too short to be shooting cheap ammo.
One poster said his rifle does not "feel" or "prefer" anything, but I can assure him that you can take two examples of the same make and model of a good 22 rifle, and each of them will show different ammo preferences.
Eley Tenex can disappoint when compared with Eley Match, the next step down. That I believe is because of the statistical testing one poster explained. Match is simply down graded Tenex. Team is down-graded Match. My bud and I each had a couple of bricks of Team that shot the daylights out of the higher priced Eley. The next brick we buy, if we can find any, probably will not do so.
The infinite variety of results is what makes 22 rifle benchrest so endlessly fascinating for old buzzards like us. You will never get there. Truly a lifetime hobby.
I shoot a CZ 457 LRP and use SK Rifle Match and get 1MOA at 100m so it can be done with 22lr a lot is down to ammo choice if you are doing your bit
Good Day, I have found that shooting ONE shot at 25 1" Factory Class targets at 50 and 100 yds will tell you all you need to know about how your testing ammo performs.
Cartridge quality and uniformity determines results, correct?
When the muzzle velocities differ, will those projectiles fly the same trajectories?
If the bullets aren't identical in shape aren't they going to have different aerodynamics?
If the cartridges are visibly damaged, fresh out of the box, do you expect repeatable accuracy?
I know what all my rifles "like".
They require tight muzzle velocities and well made cartridges.
No dents, no dings, no visible asymmetries.
Anything less and there will be strays.
By simply inspecting my rimfire cartridges before chambering
and using a ballistic chronograph every range session
it's no problem figuring out why those strays are showing up.
When the muzzle velocities differ, will those projectiles fly the same trajectories?
If the bullets aren't identical in shape aren't they going to have different aerodynamics?
If the cartridges are visibly damaged, fresh out of the box, do you expect repeatable accuracy?
I know what all my rifles "like".
They require tight muzzle velocities and well made cartridges.
No dents, no dings, no visible asymmetries.
Anything less and there will be strays.
By simply inspecting my rimfire cartridges before chambering
and using a ballistic chronograph every range session
it's no problem figuring out why those strays are showing up.
Last edited:
Lot of truth right there
@justin amateur
I had a thought I wanted to get your opinion on.
You will note that I never claim “all day long”
I don’t even want to shoot all day.
My question is this. For those of us who don’t really recreate by shooting thousands of rounds at targets. When I say my rifle does not change POI, groups are uniformity excellent etc. why would it not make sense to simply shoot one shot at 25,50, 75 and 100 yards. Cold bore, no sighters. If they impact properly at all four given ranges would that be evidence of accuracy. ? Or random?
By properly I mean hit 1/4” dot at 25, 3/8 at 50, .75” at 75 and 1” at 100.
Any rifle that does that is accurate enough for squirrel hunting in my opinion. I also think very few will do that.
I had a thought I wanted to get your opinion on.
You will note that I never claim “all day long”
I don’t even want to shoot all day.
My question is this. For those of us who don’t really recreate by shooting thousands of rounds at targets. When I say my rifle does not change POI, groups are uniformity excellent etc. why would it not make sense to simply shoot one shot at 25,50, 75 and 100 yards. Cold bore, no sighters. If they impact properly at all four given ranges would that be evidence of accuracy. ? Or random?
By properly I mean hit 1/4” dot at 25, 3/8 at 50, .75” at 75 and 1” at 100.
Any rifle that does that is accurate enough for squirrel hunting in my opinion. I also think very few will do that.
If you can put y'er first shot within 1/2 moa of point of aim 4 out of 5 times at any distance,
nothing I have to say matters. If y'er wondering why y'er ammunition is spitting strays and fliers,
preventing that from happening, that's my topic of interest. What causes those outliers?
Why are so many cartridges unable to produce predictable results?
My large sample groups are about understanding the cause of those wayward wanderers.
I'll never be a successful competitor in the precision shooting game. No talent.
But as a technician chasing cause and effect, that I can get done.
Plus it gets me out of the house when the wife has the "girls" over for coffee.
nothing I have to say matters. If y'er wondering why y'er ammunition is spitting strays and fliers,
preventing that from happening, that's my topic of interest. What causes those outliers?
Why are so many cartridges unable to produce predictable results?
My large sample groups are about understanding the cause of those wayward wanderers.
I'll never be a successful competitor in the precision shooting game. No talent.
But as a technician chasing cause and effect, that I can get done.
Plus it gets me out of the house when the wife has the "girls" over for coffee.
RT, there's a youngster at the local range, 17 years old.
Prone, offhand, peep sights, he can produce better results at 100 yards, than I can with a scope and bipod.
That's talent. To duplicate his results, I have to break out the Fuglie so I don't interfere with the rifle.
As a technician I can figure out a way to isolate myself from the results.
But to hold, support and shoot a rifle accurately? Not in my skill set.
Prone, offhand, peep sights, he can produce better results at 100 yards, than I can with a scope and bipod.
That's talent. To duplicate his results, I have to break out the Fuglie so I don't interfere with the rifle.
As a technician I can figure out a way to isolate myself from the results.
But to hold, support and shoot a rifle accurately? Not in my skill set.
Have you tried other ammo brands ??
A given rifle may well be capable of that, but the variability that the shooter and ammo adds in will in all likelihood prevent it from consistently occurring. Personally, as a hunter, I`m much more interested in consistent accuracy ( POA vs, POI ) as opposed to precision ( group size ). I routinely shoot my 17 HMR at 100 yards with a 1" dot aiming point and measure the distance from the center of that dot ( POA ) to where the round strikes ( POI ). I want that to average well under 1".@justin amateur
I had a thought I wanted to get your opinion on.
You will note that I never claim “all day long”
I don’t even want to shoot all day.
My question is this. For those of us who don’t really recreate by shooting thousands of rounds at targets. When I say my rifle does not change POI, groups are uniformity excellent etc. why would it not make sense to simply shoot one shot at 25,50, 75 and 100 yards. Cold bore, no sighters. If they impact properly at all four given ranges would that be evidence of accuracy. ? Or random?
By properly I mean hit 1/4” dot at 25, 3/8 at 50, .75” at 75 and 1” at 100.
Any rifle that does that is accurate enough for squirrel hunting in my opinion. I also think very few will do that.
I think the discussion was largely limited to .22 RF SV. The 17's really eliminate much of what is desirable about shooting the rimfire in the first place.
I also think that about anyone here has the ability to shoot MOA or better with a target weight .22 RF. What is being tested is the rifle and ammo.
As a relatively new rifle shooter ( well, except for the time I put in with 14s and 16s while working for Uncle ), and REALLY new to rimfire shooting, I found the statement that " 17`s really eliminate much of what is desirable about shooting the rimfire in the first place." to be particularly interesting. Because of my lack of a frame of reference, could you or someone educate me on those desirable attributes of rimfire shooting that are eliminated by the 17HMR? Thanks.
Wind drift and trajectory are greatly reduced at 100 yards compared to the standard velocity target ammo for the 22RF
Last edited:
Got it. Because 17HMR shoots flat and fast I assume. From my reading it appears to me that shooters shooting .22 have an opportunity for more consistent and perhaps better quality ammunition than 17HMR shooters (?).
Last edited:
The .22LR round drops considerably more than the 17HMR round at 100 yards.
But the wind drift difference between the two at 100 is relatively insignificant. For each 1 mph of crosswind the .22LR standard velocity target round will drift only .05 to .07 inches more at 100 than the 17 HMR.
I wanted to add that I have seem the exact same as the OP. Accuracy looking good to about 70 yard then falling apart. For me it was ammo and gun. Same ammo could work well in another gun, and fall apart in another. Try some ammo that is likely better than CCI SV. Seems there is availability of Eley Team and Match online. Grab a couple boxes of that and see if it does away with sudden drop in accuracy at range for you. Other choices besides mid to high range Eley would work if you can get it. Then work down price points and see how it goes. Generally the $15-$20 range a box at normal prices these days seems to be reliable. You can spend less but takes lots of time to shoot It and make a selction.
i'm going to try some Eley here soon and see how it goes. It definitely _could_ be my barrel, but 75/80y, i'm consistently </= 1moa. Once i get to 100y it opens up so much more. Have been thinking about a CZ or something else, but the savage just shoots so well within 75y, it'd be hard for me to get rid of altogether.
Thank you for your thoughts!
But then again it could still be the barrel, you hear a lot of CZ owners claim at 100 yds their CZ will run with a much more expensive Vudoo but then if you look deeper into it is usually at the 150-200 yards and further that the more precision built Vudoo starts wiping the floor as compared to a CZ's accuracy.
Pretty much any decent quality .22 will shoot well with quality ammo at 50 yds.
Too an extent you generally get what you pay for and usually the trying to get a less expensive gun to run with the higher priced competitors models there is a point the difference starts becoming apparent.
1.5 MOA at 100 for a 22LR isn’t bad. Many use 5 shot groups which does not represent what the ammunition really does unless the groups are overlaid electronically after the fact. 3 groups of 10 shots each averaged are a lot better to go by, although many shooters avoid that. An average group size result from that is rarely less than 1MOA.
25yd increases are a big deal when it comes to remfire accuracy. Looks like you have proven what the stock Savage is capable of. If you want more. You'll have to spend money on the Savage or go to another level gun.
Last edited:
