- Thread starter B Man
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Probably never found if that were a .223.
Same outcome. Run 100-200 yards and bed down with no pressure.
The reason this is always a hot topic is there are two general schools of thought on terminal performance, but they are polar opposites.
School #1 is that speed kills. Light fast bullets that practically detonate on entry and turn the entire vitals cavity to gel.
School #2 is bone crushing heavy bullets traveling at slower velocities is the secret to bang flops. The more magnum the better.
And now…the truth. The ideal terminal performance of ANY bullet is for it to slam into the target and transfer 99.5% of its energy into the target, barely exiting out the back side for sake of blood trail. This is fundemantal concept that so many in my opinion miss. Any energy expended by the bullet into the tree behind the deer is a waste that reduced that bullet’s killing power.
This is where shot placement comes into play. Those that swear by magnums as the only way are usually also the guys taking the high shoulder bone shots. No deer will take another step after being hit with a 200 grain bonded bullet in the shoulder/spine area. Take that same bullet and shoot it through the vitals behind the crease and it will barely mushroom as it blows right through. It will surely still kill, but not instantly.
Similarly, fast light frangible bullets are excellent when placed in the vitals, and it doesn’t take much energy to kill in this area, a 223 starts with plenty of energy if it’s mostly all deposited in the deers vitals. But bone shoot a deer with a light frangible bullet and you likely won’t succeed. However, the lighter recoil of non-magnum speed cartridges such as 243 means better shot placement in general on animals and fewer mistakes. Magnum recoil is a huge contributor to the “it makes up for bad shot placement” theory.
All the above doesn’t even take into account shot range. Long range kills demand bullets designed to come apart at low velocity. Shoot a deer in the shoulder at 40 yards with a Berger VLD and you’ll conclude “those Berger bullets suck.”
TLDR: figure out how much energy you need to barely pass through the animal at the range you plan to shoot and in the body location you plan to aim, and your rifle will kill like Thor’s hammer.
School #1 is that speed kills. Light fast bullets that practically detonate on entry and turn the entire vitals cavity to gel.
School #2 is bone crushing heavy bullets traveling at slower velocities is the secret to bang flops. The more magnum the better.
And now…the truth. The ideal terminal performance of ANY bullet is for it to slam into the target and transfer 99.5% of its energy into the target, barely exiting out the back side for sake of blood trail. This is fundemantal concept that so many in my opinion miss. Any energy expended by the bullet into the tree behind the deer is a waste that reduced that bullet’s killing power.
This is where shot placement comes into play. Those that swear by magnums as the only way are usually also the guys taking the high shoulder bone shots. No deer will take another step after being hit with a 200 grain bonded bullet in the shoulder/spine area. Take that same bullet and shoot it through the vitals behind the crease and it will barely mushroom as it blows right through. It will surely still kill, but not instantly.
Similarly, fast light frangible bullets are excellent when placed in the vitals, and it doesn’t take much energy to kill in this area, a 223 starts with plenty of energy if it’s mostly all deposited in the deers vitals. But bone shoot a deer with a light frangible bullet and you likely won’t succeed. However, the lighter recoil of non-magnum speed cartridges such as 243 means better shot placement in general on animals and fewer mistakes. Magnum recoil is a huge contributor to the “it makes up for bad shot placement” theory.
All the above doesn’t even take into account shot range. Long range kills demand bullets designed to come apart at low velocity. Shoot a deer in the shoulder at 40 yards with a Berger VLD and you’ll conclude “those Berger bullets suck.”
TLDR: figure out how much energy you need to barely pass through the animal at the range you plan to shoot and in the body location you plan to aim, and your rifle will kill like Thor’s hammer.
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I thought so, with that little “scoop” extending out front of the carnage. Nice shot!
This is where modern bullet development has really upped the game. You can get lighter weight projectiles that have massive energy transfer but are designed tough enough to shatter their way deep into an object. An example is the 140 grain XTP for 357 mag. In a revolver they mushroom like every other projectile but hold together very well BUT crank them out of an 18-20" levergun barrel at velocities 500fps faster than the revolver and they will partially fragment but maintain a solid base that exits the target while the pieces shoot out to create their own wound channnels
That’s a little simplistic.
Yes, energy transfer is what creates temporary stretch cavities, which can lead to permanent wounds if the amount of energy transferred exceeds the elastic limit of the tissue being passed through.
However, the benefit of fragmenting bullets is that they reduce the elastic limit of the tissue as the fragments make their many cuts. This generally leads to greater permanent wound channels.
Many solid copper expanding bullets and bonded expanding bullets really only do crush damage. Even in rifles, and even though they often transfer a lot of energy and have fantastic temporary stretch cavities, they may not exceed the elastic limit of various tissues. So, they rely on crush damage, albeit with hopefully a wide meplat thanks to the expansion of the bullet.
This sounds like I’m all for the fragmenting bullets, and I do think they can be exceptionally lethal when the fragmentation is consistent and they have enough retained mass to still penetrate (like the TMK). But the expanding bullets also have the advantage when going through bone and when needing that deeper penetration. There’s also the lead free aspect if you care about that for meat.
When I refer to energy transfer, I guess I didn’t specifically mean only hydrostatic shock, which is what I think you mean by energy transfer. I was referring to whether the bullet exited carrying a lot of mass and velocity with it, vs expending all that kinetic energy in the deer.
Sufficient penetration is definately the first priority though. Ideally the bullet would exit the deer with its last pound of kinetic energy for blood trail creation, meaning full penetration occurred.
Your point about the copper solid vs the fragmenting bullet is exactly my point. The frag bullet will be better in soft tissue, while the copper solid much better on a shoulder bone shot. Both ways will hit like a thunderbolt. Where people mess up is not choosing the appropriate bullet for their situation and aiming point. It could be argued that the ammo companies haven’t done a very good job educating the average hunter about exactly how their products work.
One thing to add, I’m not suggesting that the best cartridge/bullet is the one that barely exits a broadside deer. You want to choose something that has enough power/penetration to barely exit in all the most likely shot scenarios such as quartering shots, extended range shots, shots that hit a rib on entry, etc. But when hunters take that error budget of energy and go overboard, you end up with guys shooting deer from ground blinds at 30 yards with 30-06 rifles pushing 200 grain bonded bullets and they aren’t happy cause they are tracking all the time. So they buy a 300 WSM lol.
Mulie buck this year. 75 gr ELDM started at 2900 fps. Distance 475 yards.
Lungs pretty wrecked
Between the ribs on entrance, destroyed a vertebrae, took out a rib on exit.
Significant exit.
Zero distance traveled post impact.
P
Lungs pretty wrecked
Between the ribs on entrance, destroyed a vertebrae, took out a rib on exit.
Significant exit.
Zero distance traveled post impact.
P
77's work just fine. I haven't used them on deer, but several customers are out of .223AI, 22BR, 22BRA, and 22 creed. No issues to report. 77SMK out of a 22 creed will smack a deer down as hard as any short action standard bolt face can. I saw video!
That does it! I'm gonna set up my AR to run either these or the 73 ELDM. Which ever is more accurate in my rifle.
Yup that's correct. But TonyTheTiger posted mods for the AR15 mag and receivers to run the 75 ELDM. I'll test the 73 ELDM at mag length. And then test the 75 ELDM at modified mag length, and it that doesn't prove out I'll test the full modification length prior to making a final decision.
Cheating on the thread with 55gr Speer Gold Dot. 10.3" barrel got it done though. Shot in the neck and DRT.
This was last year.
I'll switch to hunting with my fun rifles this year after I kill at least one buck with my Mod Seven.
What are you getting velocity wise out of your ai with the 77 ?
I picked up a thousand by accident and it looks like it worked out in my favor. I might out to see if I can get 1k more while the getting is good.
After reading through the thread on rokslide, I'm going to build a 223AI for myself. I'll probably finish it at 20 or 22" inches though.
Moose aren’t hard to kill, poke a hole in the lungs and they go down. A lot of the Alaska native kids, out in the villages, kill lots of moose/caribou/bears with their cheap Ar’s every year. Before that it was mini 14’s. Mostly shooting 55 fmj’s, or whatever cheap shit they can afford. Not to mention SKS’s and mosin’s. Almost always shooting what they can afford, wolf or Tula fmj’s. They think my origin, xlr magnesium, proof, ultra 5, 300 wsm is a space gun. 
223 absolutely works with correct placement, although I've witnessed SMK do poorly. I helped recover a deer that had multiple hits from a 77 SMK in the chest with almost no internal damage. I wonder if SMK is more velocity dependent? He had a 16" AR and was using a slow factory load like Fiocchi or something.
In 223 I've had great results with:
77gr TMK
64/62gr Gold Dots/Fusion
75 GR Gold dot
70gr TSX
I always go for heart/lungs. They never seem to make it farther than 50 yards, but usually less.
In 223 I've had great results with:
77gr TMK
64/62gr Gold Dots/Fusion
75 GR Gold dot
70gr TSX
I always go for heart/lungs. They never seem to make it farther than 50 yards, but usually less.
I've shot multiple deer with 5.56. Never had one run further than 40 yards.
My preferred factory loads are the black hills 5.56 77 TMK and the Barnes 5.56 70 TSX.
Out of a 14.5 inch barrel the Barnes 70 TSX should expand out to 375 yards and the 77 TMK should be good to around 600 yards.
My preferred factory loads are the black hills 5.56 77 TMK and the Barnes 5.56 70 TSX.
Out of a 14.5 inch barrel the Barnes 70 TSX should expand out to 375 yards and the 77 TMK should be good to around 600 yards.
Just got back from a herd management cow elk hunt. Couldn't believe how much tougher they are than a deer. When shot none of these elk jumped or fled like a deer would, they just absorbed the bullet. Out of the three we killed:
1. Big cow shot once through vital cavity quartering away at 100 yards, 300 Weatherby 180 grain. Elk did drop dead 15 yards away but absolutely no blood coming out of the body despite a full pass through. Surprisingly small amount of internal damage and internal bleeding.
2. Smaller calf, shot broadside once in the heart and once in middle spine at 200 yards, 300 WSM 200 grain. Dropped due to spine shot, but was still actively trying to get up and run. Was very much alive when we walked up on it.
3. Big cow initially shot broadside once in chest, and again in lower part of shoulder at 75 yards, 300 WSM 200 grain. Chest shot passed fully through, grazed the heart. Again very little internal damage and bleeding. Lower shoulder shot completely broke the bone, but appeared to not pass through - no damage behind shoulder to vital cavity or opposite shoulder. Not sure if the bullet blew up or ricocheted off the bone. After these two shots the cow ran 100 yards halfway down a wooded valley into thicker trees. Only drops of blood but the tracks showed it was dragging a leg. We managed to shoot it 3 more times total, with a 300 WSM and a 243 100 grain (brought along for coyote) while chasing it. The third shot hit it in the lower back leg/hip area and broke the bone, not sure if it was the 300WSM or 243. The elk laid down behind a tree and it was shot twice more in the neck with the 243. It STILL had its head up when we walked up on it. It ran in total 200+ yards down into a valley which made it very difficult to extract. The 100 grain 243 shots didn't appear to pass through the neck, and barely caused internal damage to the bone/windpipe. I think the only reason it stopped was because of the broken front shoulder and rear hip/leg.
When we butchered them I also couldn't believe how much harder the bone was, our band saw for deer could barely get through the front leg bones.
All that said I would probably still shoot a deer with a good 5.56 bullet but I wouldn't even use a .243 on Elk.
1. Big cow shot once through vital cavity quartering away at 100 yards, 300 Weatherby 180 grain. Elk did drop dead 15 yards away but absolutely no blood coming out of the body despite a full pass through. Surprisingly small amount of internal damage and internal bleeding.
2. Smaller calf, shot broadside once in the heart and once in middle spine at 200 yards, 300 WSM 200 grain. Dropped due to spine shot, but was still actively trying to get up and run. Was very much alive when we walked up on it.
3. Big cow initially shot broadside once in chest, and again in lower part of shoulder at 75 yards, 300 WSM 200 grain. Chest shot passed fully through, grazed the heart. Again very little internal damage and bleeding. Lower shoulder shot completely broke the bone, but appeared to not pass through - no damage behind shoulder to vital cavity or opposite shoulder. Not sure if the bullet blew up or ricocheted off the bone. After these two shots the cow ran 100 yards halfway down a wooded valley into thicker trees. Only drops of blood but the tracks showed it was dragging a leg. We managed to shoot it 3 more times total, with a 300 WSM and a 243 100 grain (brought along for coyote) while chasing it. The third shot hit it in the lower back leg/hip area and broke the bone, not sure if it was the 300WSM or 243. The elk laid down behind a tree and it was shot twice more in the neck with the 243. It STILL had its head up when we walked up on it. It ran in total 200+ yards down into a valley which made it very difficult to extract. The 100 grain 243 shots didn't appear to pass through the neck, and barely caused internal damage to the bone/windpipe. I think the only reason it stopped was because of the broken front shoulder and rear hip/leg.
When we butchered them I also couldn't believe how much harder the bone was, our band saw for deer could barely get through the front leg bones.
All that said I would probably still shoot a deer with a good 5.56 bullet but I wouldn't even use a .243 on Elk.
I have heard a few folks speak about the devastation of the 77 TMK...I dont know his handle here but he is THE dude for the final word on optic tracking...he loves the TMKs.
Sounds like y'all had an exciting time. I don't know what it is about the 243 but I've rarely seen good outcomes from people that use it here in my part of SE Texas. It seems like everything shot with it runs off. With the exception of one kid I know that shoots a 243.
He comes over to my place every year before season and shoots a couple shots to confirm zero. He routinely kills deer on the spot with his 243.
I've recently been playing with a 9.25 twist 243AI and I think I'm going to give the 95gr tmk a try.
How far ?
125 yards +\- . 35 yard trail
Nice. I wanted to have some loaded by this weekend but I can't get a combo with accuracy and sd where I like them. If I get the SD I lose the accuracy. If I get the accuracy I get a high SD.
I’ll be honest, my main load now until 8208 is more abundant is running TAC. I load tested at 500 yards on a calm day, picked most accurate load, shot over chrono one shot to get an idea in both my AR 223’s and hit the range to check my dope. It’s probably horrible SD but it’s accurate as hell and was kinda nice not overthinking it for once.
I've never seen 8208 on the shelf until this week. Bass Pro had ONE left, snagged it. Then went to the local outdoor range and they had like ten of em, one pounders. In fact, the shelves were full of just about everything. I just about passed out. The only thing they seemingly didn't have? Trail Boss.
I did get better results with TAC than with 8208 though. I went to 23 grains with 8208 and the Berger 77 OTM and TAC was still faster. But I had no pressure signs with 23 grains of 8208 so I may inch it up a bit. I use the Bergers exclusively in a 12.5" barrel. Trying CFE 223 next.
I did get better results with TAC than with 8208 though. I went to 23 grains with 8208 and the Berger 77 OTM and TAC was still faster. But I had no pressure signs with 23 grains of 8208 so I may inch it up a bit. I use the Bergers exclusively in a 12.5" barrel. Trying CFE 223 next.
Elk must be tougher in your neck of the woods than what we have here in Oregon.
The last couple or three cows we killed dropped pretty much right now.
Hit this one around 375, 162 eldx out of a 7mm Rem Mag, couldn't count to 8 before she died.
This poor little bull took exactly one 140 gr Partition through the chest at 68 yards, 7mm-08. Died in the same tracks he was standing in when the bullet hit.
Same load for this guy, 346 yards, he went down so fast I thought I’d missed, hard quartering away, rear right lung exiting in front of the left shoulder, no major bone hit.
Felt kinda bad for this guy, 150 yards maybe, never knew what hit him, broadside behind the shoulder, same 7mm Rem Mag load.
My dad’s best bull, 140 AccuBond at 225, 7mm-08, maybe 90 feet.
My nephew’s first bull, 7mm-08, 150 Eldx, 409 yards.
.223 Rem not legal for elk in Oregon but they’re not that hard to kill.
P
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I've had a load that shot decent with an SD in the mid to low teens. I'm going to load it again and shoot 300 yards with it. If it holds moa I'll probably run with it for now.
You mentioned the bullet weights but not the actual bullet. What bullet was actually used? Any pictures of the exit and entry wounds?
It was Federal 200 grain WSM "Terminal ascent" bullets, I don't know anything about them as it wasn't my rig. I was using the 300 Weatherby which was standard 180gr soft points, I don't they they were even bonded, yet the one shot with these died the quickest. The 243 was 100 grain federal power shock soft point.
Unfortunately it was too cold and snowy to take pics of the wound damage, but it was nothing to write home about. I'm wondering if the 200 grains just passed through without much expansion.
Should have used a 77TMK.
Hmm well I'm not sure what the issue was. The 300 WBY with 180 gr SP should of been fairly explosive at that range. Even the 200 gr bonded bullet should of had better performance at that range. I wasn't there but with three different account of poor performance on cow elk is a pretty big red flag. My buddy took most of his bulls with a 308 win and 165 gr Partition at 0-300 yards with no issues. By your accounts 30 caliber magnums are just marginal.
A lot of these match bullets do wonders on game when they hit. Sometimes they don't. I have personally (YMMV) found that if you manage to thread the OTM bullets between the ribs, you get a significantly different wound channel than if you smash through a rib and grenade the projectile (or at least the front half). Unfortunately, I have had the misfortune of enough failures (maybe 10%) of match bullets that the only one I still mess with for killing is the ELD-M... which has done wonders on coyotes and big feral dogs to this point. I'll also qualify my opinion of "failure" as an unquestionable impact to the vitals where the animal makes it well over a hundred yards and expires out of sight.
Sometimes when those OTM's end around inside they can produce devastating wounds. I still have a photo of a coyote that I shot head on with a 175 SMK at about 250 and it looks like I ripped him from asshole to sternum. I tend to impress less with oblong exit holes because those are more common with bullets tumbling... an effect that is less likely to repeat than the expansion of a quality hunting bullet.
I'll certainly never condemn anyone for using a match bullet, and I am glad that some have had so much success. It doesn't matter what projectile you're using if you can't hit where you are intending. I still use the ELD-M for coyotes. I just believe based off of my experiences that a hunting bullet with match accuracy gives you a bit of a better chance at a quick kill than a match bullet relying on hunting terminal performance.
Again, YMMV, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me based off of their successes and failures.
For .223/5.56 I have had good results with the now discontinued 64gr Speer Gold dot factory ammo. It shoots ~1.25 MOA out of my FN DMR II, and I can't think of a coyote, hog, or dog that has ever shrugged off a hit to the vitals... Almost always they are down within 5 seconds and motionless within another 1-2. Plus, that bullet can carry through a scapula and wreck a spine way above it's weight class.
Sometimes when those OTM's end around inside they can produce devastating wounds. I still have a photo of a coyote that I shot head on with a 175 SMK at about 250 and it looks like I ripped him from asshole to sternum. I tend to impress less with oblong exit holes because those are more common with bullets tumbling... an effect that is less likely to repeat than the expansion of a quality hunting bullet.
I'll certainly never condemn anyone for using a match bullet, and I am glad that some have had so much success. It doesn't matter what projectile you're using if you can't hit where you are intending. I still use the ELD-M for coyotes. I just believe based off of my experiences that a hunting bullet with match accuracy gives you a bit of a better chance at a quick kill than a match bullet relying on hunting terminal performance.
Again, YMMV, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me based off of their successes and failures.
For .223/5.56 I have had good results with the now discontinued 64gr Speer Gold dot factory ammo. It shoots ~1.25 MOA out of my FN DMR II, and I can't think of a coyote, hog, or dog that has ever shrugged off a hit to the vitals... Almost always they are down within 5 seconds and motionless within another 1-2. Plus, that bullet can carry through a scapula and wreck a spine way above it's weight class.
For what it is worth, Trail Boss has been discontinued…
Well snap. I guess that means I'll stop looking for it.
Bummer man. So what's the alternatives for 308 subs ?
Oopsie. 8 years late with your goofy post.
77gr TMK kill elk with monotonous regularity.
This just reminded me that I have a 300blk bolt gun. Somewhere.
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