I'm curious as to whether or not altitude has an effect on transonic stability, more specifically as to whether or not the 162 Amax will be stable while making the transition to subsonic speeds. I am shooting at 8500 feet and am trying to get my 9.5 twist 7mm Rem Mag past 2400 yards. I know that the bullet is accurate to a mile, but that is the furthest distance I have tried. According to JBM, the Amax goes subsonic around 2200 yards in present conditions. If anybody has any experiences with the Amax's subsonic performance please let me know. Thanks in advance!
- Thread starter mason.fernandez
- Start date
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
At 2000' DA I have not had good results using the non-AMP jacketed Amax.
DA has a HUGE impact on the transonic performance, at 8500ft you're probably going to be just fine.
It's definitely worth a try and assuming you do it, please take a close look at the DA when you're shooting to post the results.
At 2000' DA I have not had good results using the non-AMP jacketed Amax.
DA has a HUGE impact on the transonic performance, at 8500ft you're probably going to be just fine.
It's definitely worth a try and assuming you do it, please take a close look at the DA when you're shooting to post the results.
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
Will do. I just have to order a custom base from the people down at Murphy Precision (It takes a TON of elevation to get out there!). Once I get that, I'm golden. Thanks for the response! I'll take care to record how it groups directly after going subsonic.
Will do. I just have to order a custom base from the people down at Murphy Precision (It takes a TON of elevation to get out there!). Once I get that, I'm golden. Thanks for the response! I'll take care to record how it groups directly after going subsonic.
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
When I was in alaska I shot my 180 bergers out to 2600. I was just about 13,000 ft. It did indeed hold very disturbingly close group at that range. TOF was rediculous. Good luck in your pursuit Fernandez
When I was in alaska I shot my 180 bergers out to 2600. I was just about 13,000 ft. It did indeed hold very disturbingly close group at that range. TOF was rediculous. Good luck in your pursuit Fernandez
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
That's awesome! maybe I'll try some of those 180s as well to see if they can make it transonic better than the 162s. Yeah, time of flight is long enough to take a quick follow up shot before the bullet impacts! Thanks for the info!
That's awesome! maybe I'll try some of those 180s as well to see if they can make it transonic better than the 162s. Yeah, time of flight is long enough to take a quick follow up shot before the bullet impacts! Thanks for the info!
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551119#Post2551119
This is bohem's post in another thread. I do not shoot the 7mm Rem Mag myself, but one of my shooting buddies does and he has shot the 175 SMK through the transonic region with his 7mm RM, successfully. This supports what is written in the link.
So maybe the 175 SMK should be the go to bullet for such a shot?
Could you share your rifle setup? Just out of curiosity.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551119#Post2551119
This is bohem's post in another thread. I do not shoot the 7mm Rem Mag myself, but one of my shooting buddies does and he has shot the 175 SMK through the transonic region with his 7mm RM, successfully. This supports what is written in the link.
So maybe the 175 SMK should be the go to bullet for such a shot?
Could you share your rifle setup? Just out of curiosity.
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mudvayne</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I was in alaska I shot my 180 bergers out to 2600. I was just about 13,000 ft. It did indeed hold very disturbingly close group at that range. TOF was rediculous. Good luck in your pursuit Fernandez </div></div>
Where in Alaska did you shoot at 13,000 ft?
Until that day,
Darkop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mudvayne</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I was in alaska I shot my 180 bergers out to 2600. I was just about 13,000 ft. It did indeed hold very disturbingly close group at that range. TOF was rediculous. Good luck in your pursuit Fernandez </div></div>
Where in Alaska did you shoot at 13,000 ft?
Until that day,
Darkop
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
The 175 SMK, huh? Never given it any thought. Typically Sierra's ballistic coefficients have been too low and prices too high for me to give them much attention. Add to that the fact that many of Sierra's bullets have issues staying transonically stable, and they have been really unappealing to me, but if you say they can make the transonic trip, then awesome and thank you for the info! I'll look in to them. The 162 Amax has been my go-to bullet for three reasons: low price, high availability, and a measured ballistic coefficient of .599. I would love to share my setup. It is a Savage 111 100% completely stock with a 20 MOA base and a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50. It is deadly accurate. .5 MOA is the norm with this rifle. I consider this rifle proof that you don't need a $3000 dollar rifle to shoot long range accurately. I do have to order in some stuff to extend my range though, like the 45 MOA base that I was talking about. I also need a new scope that will strictly be for extreme long range. The Viper is my hunting scope. as for scopes, I was thinking about the SWFA SS 20x scope because of the amount of elevation it has and the talk about its reliability and repeatability. If you know of another scope that has tons of elevation, let me know; I am open to suggestions. I do have one concern, however. My barrel's twist rate might not be fast enough to keep these bullets stable that far. It is a 9.5 twist. By the way, you should consider investing in a 7mm Rem Mag! They are awesome! I definitely prefer it over my .300 Win Mag (which I may have to use in my extreme long-range pursuits provided the 7mm doesn't make it transonic easily).
Thank you sir!
-Fernandez
-By the way, do you know what conditions were when your buddy shot the 7mm through the sound barrier?
The 175 SMK, huh? Never given it any thought. Typically Sierra's ballistic coefficients have been too low and prices too high for me to give them much attention. Add to that the fact that many of Sierra's bullets have issues staying transonically stable, and they have been really unappealing to me, but if you say they can make the transonic trip, then awesome and thank you for the info! I'll look in to them. The 162 Amax has been my go-to bullet for three reasons: low price, high availability, and a measured ballistic coefficient of .599. I would love to share my setup. It is a Savage 111 100% completely stock with a 20 MOA base and a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50. It is deadly accurate. .5 MOA is the norm with this rifle. I consider this rifle proof that you don't need a $3000 dollar rifle to shoot long range accurately. I do have to order in some stuff to extend my range though, like the 45 MOA base that I was talking about. I also need a new scope that will strictly be for extreme long range. The Viper is my hunting scope. as for scopes, I was thinking about the SWFA SS 20x scope because of the amount of elevation it has and the talk about its reliability and repeatability. If you know of another scope that has tons of elevation, let me know; I am open to suggestions. I do have one concern, however. My barrel's twist rate might not be fast enough to keep these bullets stable that far. It is a 9.5 twist. By the way, you should consider investing in a 7mm Rem Mag! They are awesome! I definitely prefer it over my .300 Win Mag (which I may have to use in my extreme long-range pursuits provided the 7mm doesn't make it transonic easily).
Thank you sir!
-Fernandez
-By the way, do you know what conditions were when your buddy shot the 7mm through the sound barrier?
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
Sounds like a great rifle! Thanks for the info.
As for scope suggestions, I have used the Sightron SIII 10x on my 308, it is listed with 150 MOA (mine has about 145). Sightron makes a 16x and a 20x model as well, both of them are listed with the same amount of elevation travel. Excellent scopes for the money!
The Leupold MK4 16x has 140 MOA, but they are a bit more expensive.
I do not remember the exact conditions when my buddy shot the 175 SMK into the transonic region, but it was something like 3000 ft ASL, temp 20 deg C (70F). His barrel is a 9 twist, but when people on this forum have stabilized the 208 Amax out of a 12 twist 308, it should be possible to stabilize 7mm rounds from a 9.5 twist at long range. At least I hope so, I am really looking forward to your results!
BTW; I am in the process of getting myself a rifle just for LR, the 7mm RM is definitely one of the chamberings I am interested in.
Sounds like a great rifle! Thanks for the info.
As for scope suggestions, I have used the Sightron SIII 10x on my 308, it is listed with 150 MOA (mine has about 145). Sightron makes a 16x and a 20x model as well, both of them are listed with the same amount of elevation travel. Excellent scopes for the money!
The Leupold MK4 16x has 140 MOA, but they are a bit more expensive.
I do not remember the exact conditions when my buddy shot the 175 SMK into the transonic region, but it was something like 3000 ft ASL, temp 20 deg C (70F). His barrel is a 9 twist, but when people on this forum have stabilized the 208 Amax out of a 12 twist 308, it should be possible to stabilize 7mm rounds from a 9.5 twist at long range. At least I hope so, I am really looking forward to your results!
BTW; I am in the process of getting myself a rifle just for LR, the 7mm RM is definitely one of the chamberings I am interested in.
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
The Sightron is another scope I should consider. 150 MOA ought to be plenty for what I am doing. The SS 20x42 has the same amount of elevation, though; I'll have to do some comparison shopping to see if it is worth the extra $200+. I'll pass on Leupold; they make good scopes from my experience, just not good scopes for the money.
I shoot at 8500 ft ASL, the typical temperature is about 85 degrees F (about 30 degrees C), barometric pressure is about 29.89 inHG on average (about 1012 hPa), and humidity is typically around 16%. I imagine that gives me good odds of success.
Yeah, you should REALLY consider the 7mm Rem Mag, it works wonders on game and targets alike (with low recoil, I might add). What rifle were you considering, just out of curiosity?
The Sightron is another scope I should consider. 150 MOA ought to be plenty for what I am doing. The SS 20x42 has the same amount of elevation, though; I'll have to do some comparison shopping to see if it is worth the extra $200+. I'll pass on Leupold; they make good scopes from my experience, just not good scopes for the money.
I shoot at 8500 ft ASL, the typical temperature is about 85 degrees F (about 30 degrees C), barometric pressure is about 29.89 inHG on average (about 1012 hPa), and humidity is typically around 16%. I imagine that gives me good odds of success.
Yeah, you should REALLY consider the 7mm Rem Mag, it works wonders on game and targets alike (with low recoil, I might add). What rifle were you considering, just out of curiosity?
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
I thought the SS had more like 120 MOA, but I might be wrong. I agree about Leupold though.
You should be glad that you have such good conditions for ELR! I guess it would compensate for your 9.5 twist in regards of transonic stability.
Regarding my new LR rifle; right now I am just thinking about which chambering I want, which bullets and twist I would need etc. Not so much the rifle itself at this point. Most likely I would get either a 7mm Rem Mag (180 Berger) or a 300WM (208 Amax), but I also love the 338 Lapua (250/300 Scenar). Tough call.
When do you plan to do your ELR test shoot?
I thought the SS had more like 120 MOA, but I might be wrong. I agree about Leupold though.
You should be glad that you have such good conditions for ELR! I guess it would compensate for your 9.5 twist in regards of transonic stability.
Regarding my new LR rifle; right now I am just thinking about which chambering I want, which bullets and twist I would need etc. Not so much the rifle itself at this point. Most likely I would get either a 7mm Rem Mag (180 Berger) or a 300WM (208 Amax), but I also love the 338 Lapua (250/300 Scenar). Tough call.
When do you plan to do your ELR test shoot?
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
I was reading a review about the 10x42 SS the other day; it said something about the SS having 156 MOA elevation adjustment (with 90 MOA left after sight-in, amazing!), though officially it is listed as having 100+ MOA. I am curious as to how much variation in elevation there is from batch to batch. The review was old and there could also be more modern revisions of the scope that have less elevation, though I doubt this. The 20x42 may also have less elevation because of its higher magnification.
I consider myself extremely lucky to have such perfect shooting conditions less than a half-hour from my house. It should compensate for my less-than-optimal twist rate, or at least I hope it will.
I have also considered the beastly Lapua. This is what I have found in my research about long-range shooting in regards to these calibers:
7mm Rem Mag - Low recoil, high BC bullets, potential trouble with transonic flight (to be determined), low cost
.300 Win Mag - Fairly stout recoil, some comparatively high BC bullets (208 Amax), no trouble with going subsonic, extremely common long-range cartridge, low cost
.338 Lapua - Beastly recoil, extremely high BC bullets (custom solids by Lehigh are awesome from what I hear), no transonic trouble, VERY long range (probably beyond 3000 yards with the right setup), long brass life, relatively high cost, very good reported accuracy.
From my own personal study, I have determined that the .300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag are the best performers per dollar.
If you are considering the Lapua, though, consider the .375 CheyTac as well. The .375 CheyTac is probably the best commercially available long-range cartridge out there. The cost would be similar if you plan on using the solids, and you would gain a fair bit of range - enough to rival or beat the .50 BMG with many bullets. I actually plan on building a .375 CT in the coming months.
Such a hard decision, yet I envy you.
Anyway, I will probably have to wait a short while to test, as I am transitioning between jobs, and as you can imagine, money is fairly tight. It will probably be another month and a half or so before I get out there and test everything, but don't quote me on that!
- By the way, how much elevation did your Sightron have left over after sight in, any idea?
Have a good one!
-Fernandez
I was reading a review about the 10x42 SS the other day; it said something about the SS having 156 MOA elevation adjustment (with 90 MOA left after sight-in, amazing!), though officially it is listed as having 100+ MOA. I am curious as to how much variation in elevation there is from batch to batch. The review was old and there could also be more modern revisions of the scope that have less elevation, though I doubt this. The 20x42 may also have less elevation because of its higher magnification.
I consider myself extremely lucky to have such perfect shooting conditions less than a half-hour from my house. It should compensate for my less-than-optimal twist rate, or at least I hope it will.
I have also considered the beastly Lapua. This is what I have found in my research about long-range shooting in regards to these calibers:
7mm Rem Mag - Low recoil, high BC bullets, potential trouble with transonic flight (to be determined), low cost
.300 Win Mag - Fairly stout recoil, some comparatively high BC bullets (208 Amax), no trouble with going subsonic, extremely common long-range cartridge, low cost
.338 Lapua - Beastly recoil, extremely high BC bullets (custom solids by Lehigh are awesome from what I hear), no transonic trouble, VERY long range (probably beyond 3000 yards with the right setup), long brass life, relatively high cost, very good reported accuracy.
From my own personal study, I have determined that the .300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag are the best performers per dollar.
If you are considering the Lapua, though, consider the .375 CheyTac as well. The .375 CheyTac is probably the best commercially available long-range cartridge out there. The cost would be similar if you plan on using the solids, and you would gain a fair bit of range - enough to rival or beat the .50 BMG with many bullets. I actually plan on building a .375 CT in the coming months.
Such a hard decision, yet I envy you.
Anyway, I will probably have to wait a short while to test, as I am transitioning between jobs, and as you can imagine, money is fairly tight. It will probably be another month and a half or so before I get out there and test everything, but don't quote me on that!
- By the way, how much elevation did your Sightron have left over after sight in, any idea?
Have a good one!
-Fernandez
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
FWIW, I have a SS16X on a 45 moa base. That gives me 95 moa up, and 22 moa down, for a total travel of 117 moa.
FWIW, I have a SS16X on a 45 moa base. That gives me 95 moa up, and 22 moa down, for a total travel of 117 moa.
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
All of the Sightron SIII fixed models are listed with the same amount of MOA, 150. I have not tried out the SS, but the Sightron is definately my favourite scope for the money. I really recommend it! The 16x model would be my pick for an ELR rifle, I guess the mirage could be pretty bad in Utah?
Yeah, the caliber choice is a tough one, but kinda fun as well. At the moment I am most interested in the 300WM, launching 208 Amax of course. However, I won't be getting myself the new rifle before 4-5 months or so, so I will definitely check out what results you are getting from the 7mm at 2400+ yds/subsonic velocities. I still find the 7mm Rem Mag very interesting.
I have to travel pretty far to shoot ELR, so I don't think I can justify the extra cost of a 338LM. That goes for the 375 Cheytac as well (although I really love it!). So its pretty much a stand off between the 300WM and the 7mm Rem Mag.
Regarding my Sightron, I just checked and it turns out I have exactly 70 MOA UP left after zeroed at 100m. 75 or so DOWN. This is on a flat base, I really don't need more elevation travel (yet..).
Good shooting, and really looking forward to your results!
Sako75
All of the Sightron SIII fixed models are listed with the same amount of MOA, 150. I have not tried out the SS, but the Sightron is definately my favourite scope for the money. I really recommend it! The 16x model would be my pick for an ELR rifle, I guess the mirage could be pretty bad in Utah?
Yeah, the caliber choice is a tough one, but kinda fun as well. At the moment I am most interested in the 300WM, launching 208 Amax of course. However, I won't be getting myself the new rifle before 4-5 months or so, so I will definitely check out what results you are getting from the 7mm at 2400+ yds/subsonic velocities. I still find the 7mm Rem Mag very interesting.
I have to travel pretty far to shoot ELR, so I don't think I can justify the extra cost of a 338LM. That goes for the 375 Cheytac as well (although I really love it!). So its pretty much a stand off between the 300WM and the 7mm Rem Mag.
Regarding my Sightron, I just checked and it turns out I have exactly 70 MOA UP left after zeroed at 100m. 75 or so DOWN. This is on a flat base, I really don't need more elevation travel (yet..).
Good shooting, and really looking forward to your results!
Sako75
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
Actually, where I shoot in the mountains, mirage isn't too bad. When I shoot in the desert, that is when mirage REALLY becomes a major concern.
I have heard really good things about Sightron's glass which is a big bonus when shooting at these distances, so I haven't yet rejected that scope. I am going to go to the local Sportsman's Warehouse to take a look through the Sightron. I'll bring a friend's SS to compare the two (I have little doubt that the Sightron will be better).
I totally agree, the .300 is probably going to be the best way to go given its credentials, but the 7mm may soon be a contender after I gather the results of my little ELR adventure.
Yeah, it can be hard to justify the Lapua or the CheyTac if you don't have anywhere close to stretch its legs.
Whereabouts in Scandinavia are you located? I am guessing Finland based on your name (Do Fins consider themselves Scandinavian?). You guys have many places to shoot?
Have a good one!
-Fernandez
Actually, where I shoot in the mountains, mirage isn't too bad. When I shoot in the desert, that is when mirage REALLY becomes a major concern.
I have heard really good things about Sightron's glass which is a big bonus when shooting at these distances, so I haven't yet rejected that scope. I am going to go to the local Sportsman's Warehouse to take a look through the Sightron. I'll bring a friend's SS to compare the two (I have little doubt that the Sightron will be better).
I totally agree, the .300 is probably going to be the best way to go given its credentials, but the 7mm may soon be a contender after I gather the results of my little ELR adventure.
Yeah, it can be hard to justify the Lapua or the CheyTac if you don't have anywhere close to stretch its legs.
Whereabouts in Scandinavia are you located? I am guessing Finland based on your name (Do Fins consider themselves Scandinavian?). You guys have many places to shoot?
Have a good one!
-Fernandez
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
MontanaMarine,
First of all, what does FWIW mean? I see it everywhere and I have no clue what it means, which is interesting considering most of you would consider me a young'un. Second of all, thanks for the info, I really appreciate it! Looks like the showdown of the Sightron and the SWFA SS!
If I do recall, I have seen a post or two by you and another guy regarding extreme long range with "insufficiently powerful rifle calibers", way to debunk some stupid beliefs! People seem to instantly trust what others say when they say things like the .30-06 is only good for shooting 1200 yards accurately. I was told my 7mm Remington Magnum would only be accurate to 1400 yards, so much for that; one mile + and the bullet is still flying fast and accurate!
Thanks for the response!
-Fernandez
MontanaMarine,
First of all, what does FWIW mean? I see it everywhere and I have no clue what it means, which is interesting considering most of you would consider me a young'un. Second of all, thanks for the info, I really appreciate it! Looks like the showdown of the Sightron and the SWFA SS!
If I do recall, I have seen a post or two by you and another guy regarding extreme long range with "insufficiently powerful rifle calibers", way to debunk some stupid beliefs! People seem to instantly trust what others say when they say things like the .30-06 is only good for shooting 1200 yards accurately. I was told my 7mm Remington Magnum would only be accurate to 1400 yards, so much for that; one mile + and the bullet is still flying fast and accurate!
Thanks for the response!
-Fernandez
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
FWIW = For what it's worth.
As far as 300WM and 7mmRM if you go out to JBM and run the ballistics. With all things equal running the best bullets (best coef) for both at the same velocities, the 7mmRM comes out on top at any distance. If I recall from my research on both of these. In fact, without getting into the big 338s or other specialized cartridges, nothing beat the 7mmRM/7WSM
FWIW = For what it's worth.
As far as 300WM and 7mmRM if you go out to JBM and run the ballistics. With all things equal running the best bullets (best coef) for both at the same velocities, the 7mmRM comes out on top at any distance. If I recall from my research on both of these. In fact, without getting into the big 338s or other specialized cartridges, nothing beat the 7mmRM/7WSM
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
I am from Norway. But I can see why you guessed Finland though. My first rifle was a Sako 75, hence my username.
Norway has about the same population density as Utah, so with a little effort its easy to find good LR spots! I am often using a military range that goes out to 2000+ meters, two hours of driving, and the wind rarely exceeds 5 mph. Although the gun culture/politics is not as good as in America, its still better than in many European countries.
Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get.
I am from Norway. But I can see why you guessed Finland though. My first rifle was a Sako 75, hence my username.
Norway has about the same population density as Utah, so with a little effort its easy to find good LR spots! I am often using a military range that goes out to 2000+ meters, two hours of driving, and the wind rarely exceeds 5 mph. Although the gun culture/politics is not as good as in America, its still better than in many European countries.
Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get.
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get.
</div></div>
It depends on what altitude you're at. I've never had the 208 Amax go unstable at the sound barrier, even down at -1200' DA. At 3000' DA and below I have not gotten the 180 Berger or Berger Hybrid to remain stable below appx Mach 1.1
At 8500' ASL there should be little issue getting it to go through the sound barrier reliably assuming that the rifle has enough twist rate to keep it stable at the muzzle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get.
</div></div>
It depends on what altitude you're at. I've never had the 208 Amax go unstable at the sound barrier, even down at -1200' DA. At 3000' DA and below I have not gotten the 180 Berger or Berger Hybrid to remain stable below appx Mach 1.1
At 8500' ASL there should be little issue getting it to go through the sound barrier reliably assuming that the rifle has enough twist rate to keep it stable at the muzzle.
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get.
</div></div>
It depends on what altitude you're at. I've never had the 208 Amax go unstable at the sound barrier, even down at -1200' DA. At 3000' DA and below I have not gotten the 180 Berger or Berger Hybrid to remain stable below appx Mach 1.1
At 8500' ASL there should be little issue getting it to go through the sound barrier reliably assuming that the rifle has enough twist rate to keep it stable at the muzzle.
</div></div>
Humm... this is interesting as I am also looking at my first LR rifle and was between the 300WM and 7MMRM. I was almost set on the 7mm route but based on what you guys are telling me, since I'm only at 1000FT (Ohio) I'd be better off with the 300WM and 208s vs the 7mm and 180s because odds are the 180s will become unstable at distance in my altitude?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get.
</div></div>
It depends on what altitude you're at. I've never had the 208 Amax go unstable at the sound barrier, even down at -1200' DA. At 3000' DA and below I have not gotten the 180 Berger or Berger Hybrid to remain stable below appx Mach 1.1
At 8500' ASL there should be little issue getting it to go through the sound barrier reliably assuming that the rifle has enough twist rate to keep it stable at the muzzle.
</div></div>
Humm... this is interesting as I am also looking at my first LR rifle and was between the 300WM and 7MMRM. I was almost set on the 7mm route but based on what you guys are telling me, since I'm only at 1000FT (Ohio) I'd be better off with the 300WM and 208s vs the 7mm and 180s because odds are the 180s will become unstable at distance in my altitude?
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
That is the exact same case I have as well. A 7mm with 180 Bergers will travel further supersonic and bucks the wind better, and even though I will shoot within the supersonic range 90% of the time, I wish to have the opportunity to really stretch it out from time to time. Since I rarely shoot higher than 3000 ft ASL, I'd probably be better off with a 300WM.
Thanks for sharing your experiences, bohem!
That is the exact same case I have as well. A 7mm with 180 Bergers will travel further supersonic and bucks the wind better, and even though I will shoot within the supersonic range 90% of the time, I wish to have the opportunity to really stretch it out from time to time. Since I rarely shoot higher than 3000 ft ASL, I'd probably be better off with a 300WM.
Thanks for sharing your experiences, bohem!
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
You guys may be interested in a 7mm-300mag. A bit more powder without the
length the stw and rum add. Here's a link to a long thread on it. The extra 150-
200 fps will solve some problems and the brass is an easy one step process.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/anyone-own-7mm-300-win-mag-51404/index20.html
You guys may be interested in a 7mm-300mag. A bit more powder without the
length the stw and rum add. Here's a link to a long thread on it. The extra 150-
200 fps will solve some problems and the brass is an easy one step process.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/anyone-own-7mm-300-win-mag-51404/index20.html
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FWIW = For what it's worth.
As far as 300WM and 7mmRM if you go out to JBM and run the ballistics. With all things equal running the best bullets (best coef) for both at the same velocities, the 7mmRM comes out on top at any distance. If I recall from my research on both of these. In fact, without getting into the big 338s or other specialized cartridges, nothing beat the 7mmRM/7WSM </div></div>
You are correct, but as others have stated, getting a 7mm bullet to transition is harder than getting a .30 caliber bullet to transition. Long and skinny bullets are not as good at making the transition as short and fat bullets are on average. If I were you, I would choose the .300 given your altitude. Unless you have a fast twist rate in a 7mm, you are going to have little luck with the sound barrier. Besides a fast twist rate will usually reduce accuracy because an imperfect jacketed bullet will never spin exactly around the center of form due to some portions of the bullet being denser than others (caused by jacket imperfections, the CG or center of gravity will be slightly off of the center of form).
Thank you for the clarification on MontanaMarine's behalf. I have grown intellectually because of this!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FWIW = For what it's worth.
As far as 300WM and 7mmRM if you go out to JBM and run the ballistics. With all things equal running the best bullets (best coef) for both at the same velocities, the 7mmRM comes out on top at any distance. If I recall from my research on both of these. In fact, without getting into the big 338s or other specialized cartridges, nothing beat the 7mmRM/7WSM </div></div>
You are correct, but as others have stated, getting a 7mm bullet to transition is harder than getting a .30 caliber bullet to transition. Long and skinny bullets are not as good at making the transition as short and fat bullets are on average. If I were you, I would choose the .300 given your altitude. Unless you have a fast twist rate in a 7mm, you are going to have little luck with the sound barrier. Besides a fast twist rate will usually reduce accuracy because an imperfect jacketed bullet will never spin exactly around the center of form due to some portions of the bullet being denser than others (caused by jacket imperfections, the CG or center of gravity will be slightly off of the center of form).
Thank you for the clarification on MontanaMarine's behalf. I have grown intellectually because of this!
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SAKO-75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am from Norway. But I can see why you guessed Finland though. My first rifle was a Sako 75, hence my username.
Norway has about the same population density as Utah, so with a little effort its easy to find good LR spots! I am often using a military range that goes out to 2000+ meters, two hours of driving, and the wind rarely exceeds 5 mph. Although the gun culture/politics is not as good as in America, its still better than in many European countries.
Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get. </div></div>
Norway, huh? That's cool. I know somebody visiting there right now. He likes the country.
That military range sounds awesome! Two hours is a little far for my tastes, I can understand why you are opting for the .300 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag; they make much more sense.
For your new rifle are you thinking Sako? They make an awesome rifle! They are up there price wise, but worth every penny.
Next time you are in Utah, drop by and we'll shoot some ELR!
-Fernandez
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SAKO-75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am from Norway. But I can see why you guessed Finland though. My first rifle was a Sako 75, hence my username.
Norway has about the same population density as Utah, so with a little effort its easy to find good LR spots! I am often using a military range that goes out to 2000+ meters, two hours of driving, and the wind rarely exceeds 5 mph. Although the gun culture/politics is not as good as in America, its still better than in many European countries.
Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get. </div></div>
Norway, huh? That's cool. I know somebody visiting there right now. He likes the country.
That military range sounds awesome! Two hours is a little far for my tastes, I can understand why you are opting for the .300 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag; they make much more sense.
For your new rifle are you thinking Sako? They make an awesome rifle! They are up there price wise, but worth every penny.
Next time you are in Utah, drop by and we'll shoot some ELR!
-Fernandez
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
bigwheeler,
I had considered this cartridge at one point and found the ballistic improvement quite delectable, however it is not advantageous enough for me to spend the time necking down the .300 brass; that and the barrel life is enough to give a man a heart attack!.
Thanks for piping in though! I appreciate it!
bigwheeler,
I had considered this cartridge at one point and found the ballistic improvement quite delectable, however it is not advantageous enough for me to spend the time necking down the .300 brass; that and the barrel life is enough to give a man a heart attack!.
Thanks for piping in though! I appreciate it!
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get.
</div></div>
It depends on what altitude you're at. I've never had the 208 Amax go unstable at the sound barrier, even down at -1200' DA. At 3000' DA and below I have not gotten the 180 Berger or Berger Hybrid to remain stable below appx Mach 1.1
At 8500' ASL there should be little issue getting it to go through the sound barrier reliably assuming that the rifle has enough twist rate to keep it stable at the muzzle.
</div></div>
bohem,
How many guns do you have? It seems as though you have done everything in regards to shooting!
Thanks for responding!
-Fernandez
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get.
</div></div>
It depends on what altitude you're at. I've never had the 208 Amax go unstable at the sound barrier, even down at -1200' DA. At 3000' DA and below I have not gotten the 180 Berger or Berger Hybrid to remain stable below appx Mach 1.1
At 8500' ASL there should be little issue getting it to go through the sound barrier reliably assuming that the rifle has enough twist rate to keep it stable at the muzzle.
</div></div>
bohem,
How many guns do you have? It seems as though you have done everything in regards to shooting!
Thanks for responding!
-Fernandez
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fernandez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Norway, huh? That's cool. I know somebody visiting there right now. He likes the country.
That military range sounds awesome! Two hours is a little far for my tastes, I can understand why you are opting for the .300 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag; they make much more sense.
For your new rifle are you thinking Sako? They make an awesome rifle! They are up there price wise, but worth every penny.
Next time you are in Utah, drop by and we'll shoot some ELR!
-Fernandez </div></div>
What a coincidence! Nice to hear.
The LR community here is nowhere close to be as big as in the US, but its growing, so I'm happy. Although I travel many times a year, its mostly inside Europe, as I hate those long distance flights! A shame, since the US definately is among my favourite destinations. But your offer is much appreciated!
Well, I'm not sure if I will get a Sako (in that case it will be a TRG-42 in 300WM) or opt for a little less expensive rifle. Time will show, I will keep you updated!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fernandez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Norway, huh? That's cool. I know somebody visiting there right now. He likes the country.
That military range sounds awesome! Two hours is a little far for my tastes, I can understand why you are opting for the .300 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag; they make much more sense.
For your new rifle are you thinking Sako? They make an awesome rifle! They are up there price wise, but worth every penny.
Next time you are in Utah, drop by and we'll shoot some ELR!
-Fernandez </div></div>
What a coincidence! Nice to hear.
The LR community here is nowhere close to be as big as in the US, but its growing, so I'm happy. Although I travel many times a year, its mostly inside Europe, as I hate those long distance flights! A shame, since the US definately is among my favourite destinations. But your offer is much appreciated!
Well, I'm not sure if I will get a Sako (in that case it will be a TRG-42 in 300WM) or opt for a little less expensive rifle. Time will show, I will keep you updated!
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fernandez</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get.
</div></div>
It depends on what altitude you're at. I've never had the 208 Amax go unstable at the sound barrier, even down at -1200' DA. At 3000' DA and below I have not gotten the 180 Berger or Berger Hybrid to remain stable below appx Mach 1.1
At 8500' ASL there should be little issue getting it to go through the sound barrier reliably assuming that the rifle has enough twist rate to keep it stable at the muzzle.
</div></div>
bohem,
How many guns do you have? It seems as though you have done everything in regards to shooting!
Thanks for responding!
-Fernandez </div></div>
I have access to a full machine shop and a reamer drawer from when my dad used to have a side 'smith business, plus having bought more than a handful myself. So the 6.5-06 and 280 and 7-06 that I've had were all on the same action just with different barrels.
I've done a lot of testing, I have barrels sitting here that have 500 or fewer rounds fired through them because I was interested in developing a theory on something.
I also spend a lot of time with a friend from engineering school working on stuff some consider to be "on the fringe" and with a decade of graduate level math classes between us observation is only the end result of development on paper first.
A friend of mine calls it "Toolmaker's disease"... it's a common affliction amongst machinists and engineers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fernandez</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hawk45; Yeah, you are right about the 7mm. I can't see any commercial cartrigde short of a 338 that can outperform the 7mm. But I have read reports that the 180 Bergers do not perform as good as the 208 Amax in the transonic region. If they were, there would be no question at all which one to get.
</div></div>
It depends on what altitude you're at. I've never had the 208 Amax go unstable at the sound barrier, even down at -1200' DA. At 3000' DA and below I have not gotten the 180 Berger or Berger Hybrid to remain stable below appx Mach 1.1
At 8500' ASL there should be little issue getting it to go through the sound barrier reliably assuming that the rifle has enough twist rate to keep it stable at the muzzle.
</div></div>
bohem,
How many guns do you have? It seems as though you have done everything in regards to shooting!
Thanks for responding!
-Fernandez </div></div>
I have access to a full machine shop and a reamer drawer from when my dad used to have a side 'smith business, plus having bought more than a handful myself. So the 6.5-06 and 280 and 7-06 that I've had were all on the same action just with different barrels.
I've done a lot of testing, I have barrels sitting here that have 500 or fewer rounds fired through them because I was interested in developing a theory on something.
I also spend a lot of time with a friend from engineering school working on stuff some consider to be "on the fringe" and with a decade of graduate level math classes between us observation is only the end result of development on paper first.
A friend of mine calls it "Toolmaker's disease"... it's a common affliction amongst machinists and engineers.
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have access to a full machine shop and a reamer drawer from when my dad used to have a side 'smith business.
A friend of mine calls it "Toolmaker's disease"... it's a common affliction amongst machinists and engineers.</div></div>
I can't even imagine how expensive that hobby could be! We appreciate the time/money/effort you guys put into testing and research.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have access to a full machine shop and a reamer drawer from when my dad used to have a side 'smith business.
A friend of mine calls it "Toolmaker's disease"... it's a common affliction amongst machinists and engineers.</div></div>
I can't even imagine how expensive that hobby could be! We appreciate the time/money/effort you guys put into testing and research.
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
I second what Hawk45 said, bohem.
It is genuinely awesome that you have access to that panoply of equipment! I must say that I wish I had the mathematical capability that you and your friend have; you can really go far with math skills in the shooting world! Maybe you could start your own gunsmithing show on the Discovery Channel that doesn't suck (hint hint)!
I wish I had access to machining equipment because I often find myself developing theories about shooting and exterior and interior ballistics, but haven't the means to test them.
Keep us updated on the latest and greatest,
-Fernandez
I second what Hawk45 said, bohem.
It is genuinely awesome that you have access to that panoply of equipment! I must say that I wish I had the mathematical capability that you and your friend have; you can really go far with math skills in the shooting world! Maybe you could start your own gunsmithing show on the Discovery Channel that doesn't suck (hint hint)!
I wish I had access to machining equipment because I often find myself developing theories about shooting and exterior and interior ballistics, but haven't the means to test them.
Keep us updated on the latest and greatest,
-Fernandez
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SAKO-75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fernandez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Norway, huh? That's cool. I know somebody visiting there right now. He likes the country.
That military range sounds awesome! Two hours is a little far for my tastes, I can understand why you are opting for the .300 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag; they make much more sense.
For your new rifle are you thinking Sako? They make an awesome rifle! They are up there price wise, but worth every penny.
Next time you are in Utah, drop by and we'll shoot some ELR!
-Fernandez </div></div>
What a coincidence! Nice to hear.
The LR community here is nowhere close to be as big as in the US, but its growing, so I'm happy. Although I travel many times a year, its mostly inside Europe, as I hate those long distance flights! A shame, since the US definately is among my favourite destinations. But your offer is much appreciated!
Well, I'm not sure if I will get a Sako (in that case it will be a TRG-42 in 300WM) or opt for a little less expensive rifle. Time will show, I will keep you updated! </div></div>
Excellent! Please do keep us updated, and post pictures of your rifle when you pick it up!
Those long-distance flights really are an annoyance!
Have a good one,
-Fernandez
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SAKO-75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fernandez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Norway, huh? That's cool. I know somebody visiting there right now. He likes the country.
That military range sounds awesome! Two hours is a little far for my tastes, I can understand why you are opting for the .300 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag; they make much more sense.
For your new rifle are you thinking Sako? They make an awesome rifle! They are up there price wise, but worth every penny.
Next time you are in Utah, drop by and we'll shoot some ELR!
-Fernandez </div></div>
What a coincidence! Nice to hear.
The LR community here is nowhere close to be as big as in the US, but its growing, so I'm happy. Although I travel many times a year, its mostly inside Europe, as I hate those long distance flights! A shame, since the US definately is among my favourite destinations. But your offer is much appreciated!
Well, I'm not sure if I will get a Sako (in that case it will be a TRG-42 in 300WM) or opt for a little less expensive rifle. Time will show, I will keep you updated! </div></div>
Excellent! Please do keep us updated, and post pictures of your rifle when you pick it up!
Those long-distance flights really are an annoyance!
Have a good one,
-Fernandez
Re: 7mm Rem Mag beyond 2400 yards
Thanks guys... it can be expensive. Hopefully soon we'll have some more stuff out on the exterior ballistics development we've been doing. Right now it's been very promising but not quite ready for commercial viability.
Thanks guys... it can be expensive. Hopefully soon we'll have some more stuff out on the exterior ballistics development we've been doing. Right now it's been very promising but not quite ready for commercial viability.
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