Gunsmithing A different bore cleaning question (I think)

[rg1911]

This happens no matter what rifle I'm cleaning, whether I'm shooting jacketed or cast, or what cleaner I'm using (currently Butch's mixed with Kroil).

After I get the patches coming out clean (sometimes takes several soak-and-wait cycles), I'll run a clean copper bore brush through the tube a few times. Run a wet patch after that and it comes out black.

I'm not a chemist, so I haven't determined what the black stuff is. Am I uncovering successive layers of powder/carbon fouling?

I did have one barrel inspected with a bore scope, and the report was that it was one of the cleanest barrels the 'smith had seen. It still turned patches black if I used a bore brush.

Is there a definitive answer?

Thank you,
Richard

 

[Graham]

A different bore cleaning question (I think)

Because you said several soak and wait cycles, the black is probably steel.

Stop wrecking your barrels.

 

[rg1911]

If so, that doesn't sound good. Although I didn't think copper would remove steel. (Of course, I'm not a metallurgist, either.)

Richard

 

[g2gjoe]

Ammonia will eat away steel, much like rust. Most ammonia solvents say no more than 15 minutes in the barrel. I say no more than five.
Also you say you run a copper brush down the barrel a few times after soaking. Are you removing all of the Butch's first? With dry patches, then followed by a non-ammonia oil, then followed by more dry patches? If you're not, the ammonia is probably eating away at your copper brushes. That could also be the black residue that you see. Although that can turn out blue also.
If you think you MUST copper clean your barrel, then use nylon brushes or nickel plated jags, that's what they are for.
Why do you copper clean your barrel so much?

 

[damoncali]

If you stay away from copper/brass jags/brushes, you might be surprised by how little copper is being left behind by the bullets.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

As Graham pointed out, you are likely removing barrel material by cleaning. More good barrels are wrecked by aggressive cleaning as you've stated you are doing than from shooting. The barrel will tell you when it needs to be cleaned.

 

[rg1911]

The black happens even if I use a nylon brush.

Butch's Bore Shine says it can be left in the barrel without harming it. I don't *think* it includes ammonia, but now I'll doublecheck.

Guess I'll need to find a chemical that reacts to steel and test a black patch.

Richard

 

[g2gjoe]

The black happens even if I use a nylon brush.

Butch's Bore Shine says it can be left in the barrel without harming it. I don't *think* it includes ammonia, but now I'll doublecheck.

Guess I'll need to find a chemical that reacts to steel and test a black patch.

Richard

Yes, butch's main ingredient Is ammonia. Do you have an older bottle? Since Lyman took it over the ammonia smells stronger, but it's always been made with ammonia. It's a great product, & does what it's supposed to, just use caution with it.
Best used for heavily copper fouled barrels. Try to refrain from over cleaning, my barrels become more accurate the more I shoot them, and less accurate the more I clean them.
Lesser quality barrels can be the opposite though.

 

[g2gjoe]

Also, kroil contains NOOOO ammonia, try that alone next time.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

You can take a highly polished S/S barrel and get the same black smudges on a patch by simply wiping down the exterior.

 

[InkedIan]

Is your barrel Stainless Steel? Ammonia will not harm your barrel if it's SS unless it's prolonged exposure(weeks/months), at a very high temp, or in a gas state. Using it to clean a rifle barrel very safe as long as you simply clean it out or neutralize it with something mildly acidic and then clean that out....
Metals and Corrosion Resistance
Corrosion Resistance Table of Stainless Steel Nickel Monel Iconel Hastalloy C - Stainless Steel Tube

 

[damoncali]

If you want to see black, try running a patch of JB through a clean bore (or on the outside of the barrel). Black every time. I don't worry about it.

 

[rg1911]

You can take a highly polished S/S barrel and get the same black smudges on a patch by simply wiping down the exterior.

Dave,

I'll have to try that; sounds interesting.

Many thanks for the added information.

Richard

 

[rg1911]

Is your barrel Stainless Steel? Ammonia will not harm your barrel if it's SS unless it's prolonged exposure(weeks/months), at a very high temp, or in a gas state. Using it to clean a rifle barrel very safe as long as you simply clean it out or neutralize it with something mildly acidic and then clean that out....
Metals and Corrosion Resistance
Corrosion Resistance Table of Stainless Steel Nickel Monel Iconel Hastalloy C - Stainless Steel Tube

Fortunately, the barrels are stainless, except, of course, my older WWII rifles and carbines.

I will be especially careful from now on with the cleaners. When I finish cleaning, I wipe out the Butch's and run a patch soaked with Kroil through the bore before putting up the rifle until the next range session. I hadn't thought to neutralize the ammonia; perhaps a little lemon juice?

Thank you for the links; I'll read them as soon as I get back in town.

Cheers,
Richard

 

[InkedIan]

Fortunately, the barrels are stainless, except, of course, my older WWII rifles and carbines.

I will be especially careful from now on with the cleaners. When I finish cleaning, I wipe out the Butch's and run a patch soaked with Kroil through the bore before putting up the rifle until the next range session. I hadn't thought to neutralize the ammonia; perhaps a little lemon juice?

Thank you for the links; I'll read them as soon as I get back in town.

Cheers,
Richard

Honestly, most bore/copper cleaners have such a small percentage of ammonia in them that a kroil patch or 2 should do the job and in areas where is may accumulate(Brakes etc) just flush it out with 90% rubbing alcohol and add a protectant(clp or whatever). I don't know how ammonia cleaners got such a bad rap, but as long as you use it as recommended and fully clean it out you'll have no problems.

 

[Vio515]

To echo a comment made further up, let your barrel tell you when it needs to be cleaned. My remmy 5r in 308 goes 200-300 rounds before the groups start to open up. Im sure this will pull some punches, but when the barrel needs a cleaning I soak the front half of my bore snake in CLP, pull it through several times (4-8 if I had to guess) and start shooting again. I run the snake through it once before I put it away for next time. Once or twice a year I'll fully clean the bore. I shoot around a thousand rounds a year through my 308. YMMV.