A legal question....any attorneys here?

[BgBmBoo]

I make dust covers for electronics equipment. I recently sold three covers to this "gent" who is mad because they has creases in them from shipping!?!?! No joke.
Hey called me and was very distraught over the creases. I told him to shop the covers in a huge box would be very expensive due to deminsional weight changes by FedEx so I put them in a smaller box.
I informed him that the creases would go away with time. He did not believe me. So....tonight I received the below email from him. My response so far is send the covers back and I will refund your money.

I am failrly sure that what he proposes is not quiete possible (getting my website shut down,etc.) over a $275 transaction and him just pissed because of creases. But in this day and age I would like some input from the legal folks.

Email:

The nature of my business requires me to have legal counsel on prepaid retainer. My legal team spent the last two days on this, and wanted me to green-light two actions against you to be initiated tomorrow, 4/27. I declined, and told them to give you 20 days, until May 16, to right this wrong in one of three ways..... your choice:

1) A bank cashiers check or USPS money order in the amount of $275.00 made payable to Michael Adxxxx will be in my possession on or before May 16.
Mailing Address: Michael Adxxxx
Xxxx xxxx xxxx
Grand Rapids, MI 49505

2) The three covers will be remade and shipped to me per our agreement (the agreement which you did not honor) on this order, laid loosely in a cardboard box unfolded and uncreased. The material and workmanship will be of a level of quality equal to or greater than the material and workmanship involved in the two covers ordered on July 19, 2011.

3) The Epson Printer cover will be remade and shipped to me per our agreement (the agreement which you did not honor) on this order, laid loosely in a cardboard box unfolded and uncreased. The material and workmanship will be of a level of quality equal to or greater than the material and workmanship involved in the two covers ordered on July 19, 2011. The cost of this cover, the cardboard shipping box, and the shipping cost will be subtracted from $275.00, and the remaining amount will be refunded to me in the form of a bank cashiers check or USPS money order. The bank cashiers check or USPS money order will be either in the shipping box with the Epson Printer cover or mailed to me in an separate envelope to the above mailing address but it will be in my possession on or before May 16.

If none of these three outcomes (again, your choice) occur on or before May 16, the Contingent Temporary Restraining Order that my legal counsel filed this morning with the California Attorney General's Office will go into effect at midnight Pacific Time on May 16. It will require the Web Domain Host for www.xxxxxxxxx.com to delete the website until the resolution of the civil suit that will be filed in your local jurisdiction on the morning of May 17 to recover my $275.00 plus the subrogated legal expenses. I am advised by my legal team that by May 17 the subrogated legal expenses will be somewhere between $25,000 and $50,000.

Why you needed to deceive a repeat customer, to fail to honor an agreement with a repeat customer who trusted you, and to insult my intelligence by telling me that three pieces of felt-lined ballistic nylon can't be put into a cardboard box and shipped for less than $100.00, if they are able to be shipped at all..... is of no concern to me.

Your choice; you right this wrong before May 16 or we are coming after you on May 17.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

I don't have anything nice to say about him, so I won't say anything at all.

I wish you luck, gainful advice, and patience in this endeavor.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

Sounds like a wackadoo but you are unlikely to get an informed legal opinion on this from a lawyer authorized to practice law in California by raising the question over the internet. You are best advised to call an attorney in Redding and schedule an appointment. It will cost you but obviously you are concerned enough to post the question here and after the appointment and a couple bucks I'm pretty sure you'll feel quite a bit better and thats money well spent.

Good luck.

 

[Bradu]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

I would tell him to send the covers back and refund his money.

 

[rez187]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

i would tell him to place a thin coat of Vaseline over the covers then shove them right up his ass!!

dont be bullied by this jerk

 

[Kells81]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

Don't be bullied, all scare tactics.... Basically tell him to get bent and march on.

Then again I am not a lawyer and might speak my mind more than I should....

 

[Bryan27]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

So, all that over a wrinkle in a dust cover? I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see how he could recover $25-50k in damages on a $275 purchase. I'll agree with rez on this one. Do you have a return policy?

 

[Hink]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

So....

Option 1 - Give him back the money and let him keep the product
Option 2 - Build him new covers on your dime, he kes the original product
Option 3 - Build him one new cover and refund part of the money, he keeps the original product

It sounds like what he's trying to do is referred to as 'Theft By Deception.' it's time to consult with a lawyer, if you haven't already. But this cat sounds like a total whakadoodle. I don't care what kind of lawyers a person keeps on retainer, to have a team work for two days on a project then reject their suggestion is absolutely foolish, to say nothing about the cost of two days' worth of lawyers all over a $275 charge.

Either way, the charge amount sounds like it'll be a small claims' court amount. Ask your lawyer is damages can be awarded by the court in a small claims' situation.

 

[Queequeg]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

By now you should have talked to your own attorney but in no case is a refund, with return of the "offending" product, not an acceptable remedy.

Some people love lawyer lingo...

This is why my amateur specialty is Gynecology!

 

[THE MGD]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

Disclaimers such as all sales are final, shipping liability waivers , etc are made because of things lile this.

For your own info: untill you get that certified mail from a lawyer, dont sweat it.
(dont tell him that, be proffesional, ignore the threats and treat it like a complaint. With professionalism and courtesy . Your reply should start and end with a apology but dont play into or mention the "legal threats")

Your customer has asked for a refund or replacement. He has concerns on shipping damages.
Find a FAIR resolution that has a positive outcome for both parties

If you have insurance on shipping file a claim SEPRATE from your client to reduce loss.

Work on disclaimers.
Remember how you handle yourself when the chips are down says a LOT about you.
Good luck

 

[Icallem]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

While no lawyer, this smells bad for him. He is just wanting something for nothing. Most people would not invest the time /cost of a phone call to a lawyer for $275, much less let their "legal team" work on this for 2 days. Then send an email. Really?

Let me help all I can, how much is a cover for my RCBS CM combo?

 

[High Binder]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

I get this exact type of email from scammer customers every once in a while too, but it's rare. Basically they damage their <span style="text-decoration: underline">......</span> and then look for somebody else to blame and foot the bill because a new <span style="text-decoration: underline">......</span> in my industry is ~$18,000.

Right off the bat a legal team doesn't spend hours of time worth thousands of dollars only to have the client turn around and send you a stupid email. His whole story is probably bullshit and in suing you he would have to prove that your covers were the cause and not one of a million other things that it could be (prior damage/improper instal/etc. and honestly, I don't see how any judge would buy the argument that creases in a fabric cover would directly lead to damage...). He doesn't even know what subrogation is which also blows his attorney story out of the water. So we already know the "legal action/team" email is bullshit but in the extreme event that he does sue you and somehow convinces a judge to award him a judgement your LLC (assuming you're setup as an LLC or the like) will protect you personally and if the settlement is too much to bear you simply bankrupt the company, usually not giving him a single cent and start up under a new name. Happens countless times everyday. I'd just send him a reply telling him to ship them back and you'll refund the money. Don't say anything else and send him that same thing every time he emails you. Keep those emails.

Side note: If you're not set up as an LLC or the like you need to be! It's easy and pretty cheap depending on what state your in.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't be bullied, all scare tactics.... Basically tell him to get bent and march on.

Then again I am not a lawyer and might speak my mind more than I should....

</div></div>

^^ That

But realisically, if you can stand to do it, refund AFTER he returns the 'offending' product.

 

[fx77]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

One hour of legal time in my neck of the woods is in excess of $275.
This person can therefore be bought off for that anmount of $.
Is the principle worth fighting about? Clearly this person is
....challenged.

It is nuisance claim. It is interstate/US mail, and U could be sued in federal court which costs many more $$$...a few $ will make it go away. U wil sleep better.

 

[Graham]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

Stan,

This is not legal advice (as most of what you need to know is probably written in the applicable Commercial Code), I'm just thinking out loud for the benefit of everyone:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Email:

The nature of my business requires me to have legal counsel on prepaid retainer. My legal team spent the last two days on this, and wanted me to green-light two actions against you to be initiated tomorrow, 4/27. I declined...</div></div>OK, so a 'legal team' spent almost six thousand dollars on a $225 problem, then pressed their client to act, but he declined to follow their advice and now he's telling you about it instead? Hmmmm......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) A bank cashiers check or USPS money order in the amount of $275.00...
2) The three covers will be remade and shipped to me per our agreement...
3) The Epson Printer cover will be remade and shipped to me per our agreement...</div></div>So you offered him either a replacement cover or his money back, and now he's insiting on either his money back or a replacement cover. Sound to me like you're not far apart on this one.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If none of these three outcomes (again, your choice) occur on or before May 16, the Contingent Temporary Restraining Order that my legal counsel filed this morning with the California Attorney General's Office will go into effect at midnight Pacific Time on May 16. It will require the Web Domain Host for www.xxxxxxxxx.com to delete the website until the resolution of the civil suit that will be filed in your local jurisdiction on the morning of May 17 to recover my $275.00 plus the subrogated legal expenses.</div></div>So, according to him, a lawyer filed a TRO on his behalf with the CA DOJ that will have the effect of shutting down a website. That should be easy enough to verify independently. According to him a judge has placed an Order on the record without your knowledge, in a case you didn't know about, and made a ruling on an issue that doesn't yet exist. Hmmmm......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am advised by my legal team that by May 17 the subrogated legal expenses will be somewhere between $25,000 and $50,000.</div></div>Wow, with contracts that require that kind of liability on the part of the seller it must be a hard business to be in... BTW, what is he subrogating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your choice; you right this wrong before May 16 or we are coming after you on May 17.
</div></div>Sounds ominous to me... If every $225 dispute can shut down a website there won't be much left of the Internet.

From the volume of his writings it sounds like his printers don't need covers anyway.

 

[Tunanut]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

Owning several companies, I've been involved in many civil suits. Never by anyone who said, "do this or I sue". Frankly, I laugh in their face when I hear that and say "I too have a lawfirm on retainer, do you need their address?"

 

[Kevlars]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

Here is what I would say-- anywhere on your website does it say that the items will not have creases? or that the cover is crease free? Do the creases impact the effectiveness for the direct purpose of the item? Is there anything functionally wrong with the items -- meaning does the creases cause the covers to not fully cover the item? Were there any implied warranties?

to me I would say you have lost this customer anyway ... so to avoid issues I would go ahead and return the item as long as it is not a custom order and as long as the item is in selling condition.

The whole lawsuit and pulling down your website ... ya .. not going to happen -- they guy is a blow hard and sounds like a real prick.

Good luck to you!!

 

[BgBmBoo]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

Thanks folks. I have a call in with my family attorney, but is is only 7:30am here on a Friday and doubt I will hear from them until next week. It seems extreamly ridicules that any legal action could be taken on this, but I have lost faith in the system long ago.

If it is that easy....heck...we all need to order items from the likes of Best Buy, Sears, etc., and then threaten to have their websites shut down if they do not give us stuff for free!

I will post a follow up.

Take care,Stan

 

[leagle2]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

Having dealt with "Consumer Protection" departments in a couple of states (but not California) I find it extremely unlikely that the Attorney General of the State of Ca.'s jurisdiction (or interest) extends to something that is clearly not consumer fraud. His allegation apparently is that he received a product that was cosmetically defective, nothing else.
In most jurisdictions, if attorney fees are recoverable at all, they are limited to reasonable attorney fees.
This is not advice but what I would do is ignore the email. Send him a certified letter stating that you are sorry that he is dissatisfied with the appearance of the product as it was delivered. Assure him that, as he has described the problem, the crease in no way affects the function of the product for the use that it was intended.
Tell him that the crease is temporary in nature and will abate in a reasonable period of time once the product is put into service. Finally tell him that you value his business and if he remains dissatisfied with the appearance of the covers to send them back and you will provide him a refund in full once they have been received at your business address.
Take the high road understanding that nothing that you do will satisfy this bully.You are not going to win him back as a customer (nor do you want to) but you will have taken every step that a reasonable merchant would do to satisfy the customer. Any action that he attempts after that is unreasonable.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

Just as a sideline here, I have to say this one comment:

leagle and Graham,

You two are Diamonds in one immensely huge pile of coal. Poor quality coal, at that. This because we have all heard, and quite a number of us have had, bad experiences with lawyers. So, when are ya'll gonna franchise, and plant that seed of humanity into the machinations of the industry?

As you were,,,,,

 

[anthony_se]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

+10 to leagle

 

[-Nick-]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

What even 1/2 way decent Attorneys office would have their client contact the defendant directly with a threat? Lol... The whole point of having counsel and paying them is to use them. And if you retain someone's services and then use them for 2 days at your expense you're not going to simply request the initial $275 but reasonable attorneys fees already incurred.

 

[tiNdvenTFHwMdqKW]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

I recently told a large corporate customer to politely go pound sand because of unreasonable demands their legal team was trying to inject into my otherwise fair and reasonable standard consulting agreement.

Having been in business for myself for a few years now I have learned that customers that start out "difficult" are rarely easy to please.

Unless, this sale is something that really costs you a lot of money then I would do what ever you can to walk away from this clown with the least amount of effort on your part.

Have him send the product back to you for a full refund and then refuse to do business with him. You may want to add a "crease" disclaimer to your website/order form just to address this crap in the future.

Good luck and I feel your pain.

 

[Phil1]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PBinWA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently told a large corporate customer to politely go pound sand because of unreasonable demands their legal team was trying to inject into my otherwise fair and reasonable standard consulting agreement.

Having been in business for myself for a few years now I have learned that customers that start out "difficult" are rarely easy to please.

Unless, this sale is something that really costs you a lot of money then I would do what ever you can to walk away from this clown with the least amount of effort on your part.

Have him send the product back to you for a full refund and then refuse to do business with him. You may want to add a "crease" disclaimer to your website/order form just to address this crap in the future.

Good luck and I feel your pain. </div></div>

^^^^^
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">This</span></span> Is always the answer

 

[BgBmBoo]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?


<span style="font-weight: bold">**UPDATE**</span>

I spoke with my attorney and forwarded the email. After the laughing fit was over, a simple phone call resulted in the "gent" deciding to return the covers for a full refund.

Not sure why he felt such an elaborate story was needed to get a refund, but I guess some folks feel empty threats via the internet makes them a bigger person??

I have to say...this is first time in all my years of my business to have something like this happen. I have a 100% rating on ebay and perfect rating on one of the Ham radio review sites here: http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/3025 as well as lesser used review sites.
I pride myself on customer service and this was just a real let down to have someone feel that was the only way to ask for a refund.

On the plus side....I want to say THANK YOU to all you folks for the support and encouragement. The Hide is a great group of people and is nice to see a community that stands together.

Take care,Stan

 

[Kells81]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

You gonna pull lawyer fee's out of the refund? Hell maybe send this guy a bill to get the point across.....

 

[Bradu]

Re: A legal question....any attorneys here?

Glad you got it resolved, hopefully you don't have more of these customers anytime soon.