A little Frustrated... Picture added.

O

oneshot onekill

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 29, 2008
1,955
15
61
DeBary, Florida
#1
Hey Guys,
I've been trying to put together a good load for my Remington 40X Repeater in 7.62 Nato. It seems every load I try flattens out my primers. I think most of my problem is that I have about 1000 or more Lake City Match empties that I'm using. I know they're thicker than most brass and therefore need to be backed-off a little with the powder. Here's a sample of things I've tried:
I've loaded 168gr SMK's with anywhere from 40gr. to 42.5gr. of Varget in .5gr increments. The bullets are sitting about .020" off the lands. I've also seated to "book spec" length which is a bit further off the lands. I'm using CCI200 Large Rifle primers. Every round I've fired flattens the primers. I can even tell a difference in felt recoil from the lighter loads to the hotter ones. Extraction feels the same across the board... Not tight or difficult to extract. I don't want to damage my rifle because of over-pressure. Could it be that the CCI primers are just soft and smash easily? I haven't noticed any other signs of over-pressure. I've tried full-length sized as well as neck-sized.
Same issue with 150gr. bullets...
I feel like I'm burning up a lot of rounds trying to get this under control before I've even begun to decide on the most accurate load!

Should I just not worry about it and continue load development?

Any Pearls of Wisdom would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
John
 
#2
Re: A little Frustrated...

It'll be good to get some input from the .308 boys, but I know my 300WM pummels CCI primers. I know if my primers are not flat, I'm nowhere near top velocity. Of course, it also flattens a lot of factory ammo primers too. That's why I'd get some input from guys that are loading your caliber too.

John
 
#3
Re: A little Frustrated...

I use CCI 200 LR primers in all my rifles that call for them and have never had an issue with flattened primers. You could try CCI 34 primers which are mil spec and harder then the 200"s and see what happens. I also use Winchester primers and use them exclusively in my 308 TRG 22. I load 38 grains of 4895 behind 168 smk's. That load consistantly shoots 1/2" or less 5 shoot groups at 100 yards.
 
#4
Re: A little Frustrated...

Lets see some pics. 42.4grns of Varget with the 168 is way low. Max is 46grns and Hodgdon's starting load is 42grns.
 
#5
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lets see some pics. 42.4grns of Varget with the 168 is way low. Max is 46grns and Hodgdon's starting load is 42grns. </div></div>
I'll try and get some pics tonight. I thought the same thing. Keep in mind though, I'm using Lake City Match Brass. I'm told that stuff is thick and I need to back off by a grain or two to get the same results. I don't have a Chrony... yet, to see how fast they're comin' out.
 
#8
Re: A little Frustrated...

That's a good question but I've compared the way they look to other fired cases and have also had others, who know more than I do, look at them. The general consesus is they're flattened more than normal.
 
#9
Re: A little Frustrated...

Case is sized too much. The shoulder is sized back too far and the case is slamming against the bolt face. The primer backs out first then the case moves back making it look like a high pressure sittuation.

Try loading these back up with just neck sizing and see if it goes away.

Also, take a look at factory ammo if you want to see flat primers.
 
#10
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomme boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case is sized too much. The shoulder is sized back too far and the case is slamming against the bolt face. The primer backs out first then the case moves back making it look like a high pressure sittuation.

</div></div>

+1 sounds like a head space issue
 
#11
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomme boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case is sized too much. The shoulder is sized back too far and the case is slamming against the bolt face. The primer backs out first then the case moves back making it look like a high pressure sittuation.

Try loading these back up with just neck sizing and see if it goes away.

Also, take a look at factory ammo if you want to see flat primers. </div></div>

Another good thought but I actually run EVERY case thru a "Case-length gauge" because I did bump some shoulders back too far when I first started reloading. But the result was primers that backed out and FTE.
 
#12
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefariousd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomme boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case is sized too much. The shoulder is sized back too far and the case is slamming against the bolt face. The primer backs out first then the case moves back making it look like a high pressure sittuation.

</div></div>

+1 sounds like a head space issue </div></div>
No... It's NOT a headspace issue.
 
#13
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomme boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case is sized too much. The shoulder is sized back too far and the case is slamming against the bolt face. The primer backs out first then the case moves back making it look like a high pressure sittuation.

Try loading these back up with just neck sizing and see if it goes away.

Also, take a look at factory ammo if you want to see flat primers. </div></div>

Been there/done that. Oversizing will make it appear by looking at the primer that you have a pressure problem.

Assuming this is the case, the cases you have been using will have already suffered consider stretching and thinning. Be sure and probe them on the inside wall near the web with a bent paper clip and see how deep the thin spot is before reloading them again. I've seen cases fail on the third firing from this.
 
#14
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefariousd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomme boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case is sized too much. The shoulder is sized back too far and the case is slamming against the bolt face. The primer backs out first then the case moves back making it look like a high pressure sittuation.

</div></div>

+1 sounds like a head space issue </div></div>
No... It's NOT a headspace issue. </div></div>

If the case is sized too much then it has excessive head space, I wasn't referring to the gun, rather the case. It blows the primer back into the bolt face then the rest of the case comes back to join it, the primer gets flattened like too much pressure, the web of the case stretches and creates a potential for case head separation.

headspacestretch-1.gif
 
#16
Re: A little Frustrated...

Also, if you haven't actually checked headspace, I wouldn't assume it is correct. I bought a 308 from a member here and after suffering through the same problem for a whileI took it to the smith who built it. The bolt closed on a no go and to my surprise, a field guage!!!! It was rebarreled and problem went away. Good luck
 
#17
Re: A little Frustrated...

I understand and appreciate the headspace concerns. The barrel is the factory Stainless 40X barrel. Strange thing is when I fire factory loads the primers look fine so it must be something I'm doing. I check every shell I full-length size with a Case-gauge. I'll take a picture ASAP. Camera batteries are dead.
 
#18
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefariousd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefariousd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomme boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case is sized too much. The shoulder is sized back too far and the case is slamming against the bolt face. The primer backs out first then the case moves back making it look like a high pressure sittuation.

</div></div>

+1 sounds like a head space issue </div></div>
No... It's NOT a headspace issue. </div></div>


That's a great graphic!

If the case is sized too much then it has excessive head space, I wasn't referring to the gun, rather the case. It blows the primer back into the bolt face then the rest of the case comes back to join it, the primer gets flattened like too much pressure, the web of the case stretches and creates a potential for case head separation.

headspacestretch-1.gif
</div></div>
 
#19
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand and appreciate the headspace concerns. The barrel is the factory Stainless 40X barrel. Strange thing is when I fire factory loads the primers look fine so it must be something I'm doing. I check every shell I full-length size with a Case-gauge. I'll take a picture ASAP. Camera batteries are dead. </div></div>

I'm pretty sure tomme boy nailed it.
It is entirely possible that your chamber is out of spec.
A "no go" head space gauge would reveal this, and explain your symptoms.
These are pearls of wisdom.
 
#20
Re: A little Frustrated...

Just checked it with a go no-go gauge. The bolt does NOT close on the gauge. Once again, my cases that I full-length size are ALL checked with a case gauge to make sure I didn't bump the shoulders too much. Neck-sized rounds are flattening primers too. Hopefully pictures will shed some light.
 
#23
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm using a Hornady Auto-charge powder measurer and I calibrate it every time I turn it on but I'm not sure I trust it. Sometimes it acts squirrely. Could be it... </div></div>

My Lyman acts squirrely when a cell phone is close

Pressure signs are a lot more than flat primers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ejector marks. </div></div>

Difficult to extract.
Effort to rechamber.
Loose primer pockets.
Brass growth above extractor groove.
Flattened primers (in *some* rifles... my 300WM flattens ALL primers)
Cratered primers (in *some* rifles... there are rifles that crater primers on normal loads.
Heavier than normal bolt lift (this shows up in my rifle before any other sign)

The key is to know YOUR rifle. Start low. Build up slow. Shoot a lot. Take LOTS of notes. Do your load development in HOT weather.

John


</div></div>
 
#24
Re: A little Frustrated...

I'm not sure you are completely understanding the function of a case gauge. Just because it fits in the gauge does not mean it's not oversized for your rifle... Do you have a shoulder bump gauge? How far are you bumping the shoulder back? It should be .002 with a bolt gun but you would only know how far you are pushing it back with the shoulder bump gauge.
 
#25
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMARINE1108</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure you are completely understanding the function of a case gauge. Just because it fits in the gauge does not mean it's not oversized for your rifle... </div></div>

Right on both counts. The second sentence applies if you have a short or small (under SAAMI minimum) chamber made with the headspace held short or cut with a worn reamer.

All a case gauge is (Wilson is the best example) is a chamber in a tube with a cutout on each end that allows you to measure a) go/nogo spec on the head end (zero to .006" over minimum) and min/max on neck trim/OAL of the case (zero to .010" over minimum).

I bet this confuses you as well.

It is a simple mechanical device with no moving parts that requires a firm grasp on second grade mathematics as well as reading comprehension (it comes with instructions). All the info about what is measures is printed right on the page in the reloading manual for which the cartridge you are loading.
 
#26
Re: A little Frustrated...

The way I figured it is: If I full-length size to fit the case gauge I will have cases that are pretty much "factory" spec. Factory ammo hasn't ended up with flattened primers. Savvy? I think that rules out case-to-chamber fit as the problem... Or am I wrong?
 
#27
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The way I figured it is: If I full-length size to fit the case gauge I will have cases that are pretty much "factory" spec. Factory ammo hasn't ended up with flattened primers. Savvy? I think that rules out case-to-chamber fit as the problem... Or am I wrong?

</div></div>

Factory ammo typically has the headspace about .002" short of minimum SAAMI. Other case dimensions are a thou or two smaller as well.

The press and die's ability to set the headspace back even more than .002" under minimum most surely exists based on the cumulative tolerances present in mass produced affordably priced reloading equipment.

Couple that with the fact that most factory rifles have chambers that will swallow things up right to no-go and you can have a .010" headspace difference between a loaded case and the factory chamber.
 
#28
Re: A little Frustrated...

You really should invest in a shoulder bump gauge. It is a bushing that attaches to your caliper/micrometer which measures the distance between the bottom of the case to the base of the shoulder. The neck slides into the bushing so the bushing rests on the shoulder of the case (for a 308/7.62 case you can use 9mm brass for the bushing as it's about the correct size you need, however there is no replacement for the correct tool and should be in every reloader's tool box).
 
#31
Re: A little Frustrated...

Looks round to me. Bump them up.

What are you using to prime the cases?

Are you sure you are not seating these too deep and smashing them before you even fire them? I have seen this before.
 
#32
Re: A little Frustrated...

That doesn't look flat to me. I can see round edges where the primer goes in the case.
 
#33
Re: A little Frustrated...

I read all the above and was waiting to see the pictures...now that I have I don't see an issue. Unless the angle doesn't show what you are talking about the primer looks OK to me.
 
#34
Re: A little Frustrated...

Well OK then. I haven't been reloading all that long and when I was told by others, who have been, that my primers were flattened I got concerned. Even the one pictured looks more flattened to me than the factory ammo I've shot. The ones I've de-primed definitely have a lip around the edge of the primer. If that's acceptable I just won't worry about it. Thanks again for all the help.

I ignored the condescending comments but the worthwhile parts were duly noted. To quote one of my favorite lines when someone feels the need to try to put me down: "I crap bigger than you!"
 
#37
Re: A little Frustrated...

Have you uniformed the primer pockets? I notice when I get overzealous witht he uniformer my primers are seated a bit deep. That's when I notice flattened primers with loads I know are not hot loads. I agree with the others, the primer in your picture looks fine to me.
 
#38
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomme boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about a pic of the dog below you. </div></div>

Buddy in the Park...
2vuzpm1.jpg

... He's such a Ham!
 
#39
Re: A little Frustrated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flashhole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you uniformed the primer pockets? I notice when I get overzealous witht he uniformer my primers are seated a bit deep. That's when I notice flattened primers with loads I know are not hot loads. I agree with the others, the primer in your picture looks fine to me. </div></div>
Actually, I haven't felt the need to mess with the primer pockets except to clean them. The Lake City "Match" stuff looks pretty good from the get-go.

I wonder if I'm pushing them in too far? When I had someone knowledgeable look at my first few reloads they said my primers weren't deep enough. They were flush with the bottom of the brass. Then I started pushing them in further with a Lee (I think it's called Auto-prime) hand priming tool. I actually don't know what's "good" as far as how deep to push them in. I just push with both thumbs until they stop. They're definitely not flush but also not real deep. I can just barely feel that they are past flush but I've never measured them. I was told they just need to not be flush. Is there an accurate way to insure proper primer depth? I didn't think it was super crucial.
 
#43
Re: A little Frustrated...

You should be GTG with those. Keep incrementing SLOWLY until you reach your desired load or you get some real pressure signs. The first time I worked up a load for my bolt gun I was stressing over the primers, too. It took a while before I reached a real sign of pressure, a sticky bolt, and backed off.
When working up my latest load I pushed over the max load a bit and never saw any signs of over pressure, but the primers looked pretty much the same as the first 10% under round. They all look somewhat flat and cratered, pretty much like yours, which are acceptable.
MontanaMarine put up a great post about this and I grabbed a screen shot from it:
pressure_signs.png


Now at first I thought they all looked the same, but if you look closely you'll see the space between the case and the primer are different. My Wolf primers look flatter than these under much less pressure, so my advice is to not worry about it. My very humble opinion.

Hope this helps!
 
#44
Re: A little Frustrated...

Those primers all look good to me. Even the last one isn't as squished flat as the one in my picture. Well, I'm not going to worry too much about it. I really appreciate everyone throwing in their opinions. Even the ones I didn't agree with... They're still food for thought and will be checked into.

I just bought 500 155gr. pills so now it's time to start experimenting with them. Fun, Fun, Fun!
 
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