Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs
I hope I am not pouring salt into healing wounds, by replying to this late, but I find it to be an interesting situation, to say the least. I had a retail specialty store back in the days before the internet, and I had a manufacturer tell me that while "pricesetting was illegal" (he couldn't tell me not to discount) "but if I advertised lower than MSRP, or he started seeing warranty cards come in from outside my local exclusive area, my orders could get screwed up, lost, etc"
I had not even heard of "MAP" pricing until fairly recently, and I suppose that has much to do with the evolution of internet sales. If anyone has links to actual LAWS regarding MAP, please post them. Is a violation of MAP really whatever the manufacturer says it is?
I realize now why at newegg or walmart.com, you have to actually have to click "add to cart", to see their price on some items, it seems to be a way of "getting around MAP?" policies.
A quick search finds this:
"MAP Price
On our web site, many of the product pages do not contain our selling price. Instead we ask you to click on the "Add to Cart" button so that you can either place the order, or see the price you would pay if you were to place an order. We are often asked why we set up our product pages this way.
The reason is that more and more of the manufacturers whose products we sell have now instituted a MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) Policy. This policy states that we cannot advertise a price lower than the manufacturers stated MAP price for each product. This puts is an awkward position because we do sell you products below this MAP price. These manufacturers do not dictate what price we SELL our products to you.We now have you enter our shopping cart (which is set up in so the web pages cannot be found via search engines) so that you can either buy the product, or see the price you would pay if you did purchase it.
The goal of Northeast Marine Electronics is to offer our customers the best price and service we can. If you have any questions please feel free to contact us either by e-mail or phone."
and this: "M.A.P. Price = Minimum Advertised Price
Please read about what this is and why it exists....
In today's retail environment, many retailers choose to compete solely on price. From a consumer perspective, lower is better -- all other things being equal. The arrival of the internet as a comparative shopping tool makes price shopping between retailers very efficient for consumers. This price competition is wonderful for consumers searching for commodity items and packaged goods for which the only significant differentiation factor between sellers is the price.
However, for complicated products, requiring extensive product knowledge and training to sell and service, this low price model presents the retailer with a challenge. Training and servicing of complex products require investments and costs not associated with the sale of commodity products. As retailers fight each other, the retail price is lowered in order to compete and profits are reduced. As the retailer searches for ways to restore profitability, sales competence and expert servicing of product are the first things to get cut out of the offering in an effort to retain a reasonable return on investment on a low price sale. This leads to improper sales advice to consumers, inadequate service and poor adjustment of complex products. All of this lowers the satisfaction of the end consumer with the product. Ultimately, if the dealer sees the market price as too low to sustain in a reasonable manner, the product will simply be dropped from his offering altogether and the product becomes difficult to find. Low price, initially a positive for the consumer, can become so low that the consumer ends up not getting what he bargained for.
From a manufacturer's perspective, when dealers refuse to sell or offer a product due to the absence of a sound business reason for doing so, the manufacturer has reason to become concerned. When its products are offered, but in a fashion out of step with the manufacturer's standards for sales and service, the manufacturer has a reason to become concerned. When top quality products are perceived by consumers as comparable to inferior products or unsatisfactory because of the inadequate manner a retailer sold or serviced or delivered the product to the consumer, the manufacturer has a reason to become concerned.
An even worse situation occurs when the retailer advertises the product for sale and then attempts to bait-and-switches the consumer to another product, proclaiming quality just as good (and, of course, more profit for the dealer).
Manufacturer's who sell high quality products and especially those requiring skill and expertise in the sales and servicing of those products often establish Minimum Advertised Prices (M.A.P.) as a means of encouraging a fair and reasonable selling price so that consumers can ultimately receive the availabilty, expertise and service deemed to be in keeping with the manufacturer's standard of quality for that product.
Saxophones are certainly complicated products, starting life as in excess of some 600+ individual parts. They must be correctly assembled and adjusted in order for the inherrent quality of a particular model to be evident to the player. Given the choice of so many truly excellent models today, the seller should be VERY knowledgeable in order correctly recommend a particular model for a player's needs. So, saxophones are natural products to considered for a M.A.P. policy by top quality manufacturers.
While manufacturers can, by law, set M.A.P. prices, its dealers are under no obligation to abide by these prices in its advertising or when the product is sold. In order to lever dealers to publish only the M.A.P. price or higher in advertising, manufacturers can wield a big stick, by witholding valuable bonuses or discounts to dealers who do not comply and by denying access to products in the case of violations of its policy. These policies have several common requirements and limitations:
a) The Minimum Advertised Price is determined by the manufacturer or US distributor.
b) Serious consequences result to the dealer for non-compliance.
c) Dealers can not suggest that prices lower than M.A.P. are available in an actual sales transaction where M.A.P. prices are shown.
d) Dealers are, by law, able to establish any actual retail selling price they choose, as long as prices lower than M.A.P. are not advertised in any media including the internet.
e) As long as price discussions between buyers and the dealer are private, M.A.P. policies do not apply.
Manufacturers can also impose a resale selling price policy, limiting the minimum price at which products are sold. This is different from a M.A.P. policy and a more effective and more extreme step. It is much more difficult to enforce. Consequently, no manufacturer or distributor of saxophones has such a policy in effect at this time."
Scott, I am sorry you had this problem, but from what little I have been able to ascertain, it would seem to me that emails and private messages and phone calls are meant to be PRIVATE COMMUNICATIONS between 2 parties, and in NO WAY shape or form, could be confused with "advertising". Even if some schmuck decides not to keep them private. jmho, ymmv.
I hope I am not pouring salt into healing wounds, by replying to this late, but I find it to be an interesting situation, to say the least. I had a retail specialty store back in the days before the internet, and I had a manufacturer tell me that while "pricesetting was illegal" (he couldn't tell me not to discount) "but if I advertised lower than MSRP, or he started seeing warranty cards come in from outside my local exclusive area, my orders could get screwed up, lost, etc"
I had not even heard of "MAP" pricing until fairly recently, and I suppose that has much to do with the evolution of internet sales. If anyone has links to actual LAWS regarding MAP, please post them. Is a violation of MAP really whatever the manufacturer says it is?
I realize now why at newegg or walmart.com, you have to actually have to click "add to cart", to see their price on some items, it seems to be a way of "getting around MAP?" policies.
A quick search finds this:
"MAP Price
On our web site, many of the product pages do not contain our selling price. Instead we ask you to click on the "Add to Cart" button so that you can either place the order, or see the price you would pay if you were to place an order. We are often asked why we set up our product pages this way.
The reason is that more and more of the manufacturers whose products we sell have now instituted a MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) Policy. This policy states that we cannot advertise a price lower than the manufacturers stated MAP price for each product. This puts is an awkward position because we do sell you products below this MAP price. These manufacturers do not dictate what price we SELL our products to you.We now have you enter our shopping cart (which is set up in so the web pages cannot be found via search engines) so that you can either buy the product, or see the price you would pay if you did purchase it.
The goal of Northeast Marine Electronics is to offer our customers the best price and service we can. If you have any questions please feel free to contact us either by e-mail or phone."
and this: "M.A.P. Price = Minimum Advertised Price
Please read about what this is and why it exists....
In today's retail environment, many retailers choose to compete solely on price. From a consumer perspective, lower is better -- all other things being equal. The arrival of the internet as a comparative shopping tool makes price shopping between retailers very efficient for consumers. This price competition is wonderful for consumers searching for commodity items and packaged goods for which the only significant differentiation factor between sellers is the price.
However, for complicated products, requiring extensive product knowledge and training to sell and service, this low price model presents the retailer with a challenge. Training and servicing of complex products require investments and costs not associated with the sale of commodity products. As retailers fight each other, the retail price is lowered in order to compete and profits are reduced. As the retailer searches for ways to restore profitability, sales competence and expert servicing of product are the first things to get cut out of the offering in an effort to retain a reasonable return on investment on a low price sale. This leads to improper sales advice to consumers, inadequate service and poor adjustment of complex products. All of this lowers the satisfaction of the end consumer with the product. Ultimately, if the dealer sees the market price as too low to sustain in a reasonable manner, the product will simply be dropped from his offering altogether and the product becomes difficult to find. Low price, initially a positive for the consumer, can become so low that the consumer ends up not getting what he bargained for.
From a manufacturer's perspective, when dealers refuse to sell or offer a product due to the absence of a sound business reason for doing so, the manufacturer has reason to become concerned. When its products are offered, but in a fashion out of step with the manufacturer's standards for sales and service, the manufacturer has a reason to become concerned. When top quality products are perceived by consumers as comparable to inferior products or unsatisfactory because of the inadequate manner a retailer sold or serviced or delivered the product to the consumer, the manufacturer has a reason to become concerned.
An even worse situation occurs when the retailer advertises the product for sale and then attempts to bait-and-switches the consumer to another product, proclaiming quality just as good (and, of course, more profit for the dealer).
Manufacturer's who sell high quality products and especially those requiring skill and expertise in the sales and servicing of those products often establish Minimum Advertised Prices (M.A.P.) as a means of encouraging a fair and reasonable selling price so that consumers can ultimately receive the availabilty, expertise and service deemed to be in keeping with the manufacturer's standard of quality for that product.
Saxophones are certainly complicated products, starting life as in excess of some 600+ individual parts. They must be correctly assembled and adjusted in order for the inherrent quality of a particular model to be evident to the player. Given the choice of so many truly excellent models today, the seller should be VERY knowledgeable in order correctly recommend a particular model for a player's needs. So, saxophones are natural products to considered for a M.A.P. policy by top quality manufacturers.
While manufacturers can, by law, set M.A.P. prices, its dealers are under no obligation to abide by these prices in its advertising or when the product is sold. In order to lever dealers to publish only the M.A.P. price or higher in advertising, manufacturers can wield a big stick, by witholding valuable bonuses or discounts to dealers who do not comply and by denying access to products in the case of violations of its policy. These policies have several common requirements and limitations:
a) The Minimum Advertised Price is determined by the manufacturer or US distributor.
b) Serious consequences result to the dealer for non-compliance.
c) Dealers can not suggest that prices lower than M.A.P. are available in an actual sales transaction where M.A.P. prices are shown.
d) Dealers are, by law, able to establish any actual retail selling price they choose, as long as prices lower than M.A.P. are not advertised in any media including the internet.
e) As long as price discussions between buyers and the dealer are private, M.A.P. policies do not apply.
Manufacturers can also impose a resale selling price policy, limiting the minimum price at which products are sold. This is different from a M.A.P. policy and a more effective and more extreme step. It is much more difficult to enforce. Consequently, no manufacturer or distributor of saxophones has such a policy in effect at this time."
Scott, I am sorry you had this problem, but from what little I have been able to ascertain, it would seem to me that emails and private messages and phone calls are meant to be PRIVATE COMMUNICATIONS between 2 parties, and in NO WAY shape or form, could be confused with "advertising". Even if some schmuck decides not to keep them private. jmho, ymmv.
