Rifle Scopes  About to bite the bullet on a S&B PM II 5x25 DT

EagleScout501

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Jan 31, 2012
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Richmond, Texas, USA
Long time lurker, 1st time buyer.
Got some pretty expensive gas guns. Once has a NF 2.5x10, the other has a USO 1.8x10
Ive been wanting to get into the 1000 yard game for a while, take some shooting courses, do some PRS matches, that sort of thing. Just haven't been serious enough yet to start dropping the coin and have forced myself to shoot as best as I can with what I have and learn while I do.

Now im ready.
The first part of the puzzle will be the scope.

Im a little more than a week out from getting my 1st scope on this level of prestige. Always wanted to own a S&B but got more and more disheartened as I saw prices climb the past few years. Not anymore. I was going to get a Kahles 624i AMR since ive looked through one on more than one occasion but figured. Since im that close in price. Why not get the S&B that ive always wanted.

Enter the: Schmidt Bender PMII 5-25x56 L/P DT H59 FFP MRAD CCW
This is the one I have landed on. Its got a reticle much like the AMR and it has the features that I am looking for. Ive read a whole lot about how some people like the DT turrets and some guys like the MTC. When I read last night someone said something to the effect of "if you dont know what they are for then chances are you probably dont need them" I decided against the MTC turrets and to go with the DTs.

Im building a proof 6.5 on a surgeon and figured the S&B would be a perfect compliment to the gun I going to be using. Just getting a little antsy and figured I would ask if there is anything else that I could be missing? It looks like Ive picked the best of the best, the scope that all others are compared to. Ive just never dropped this much money on glass before so the longer this draws out the more shaky I get.
 

MATADOR

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My first S&B was a 4-16, got it on clearance at a ridiculous price. After the purchase (before I received it), I was very nervous and reluctant. Once I got it in hand I was very very pleased and to this day It's one of my favorites. You will not be disappointed.
 

Glassaholic

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  • Nov 30, 2012
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    Welcome to the forums Eagle. Will this only be used for competition only or do you have any plans for hunting? The reason I ask is weight and FOV, there are some scopes that offer lighter weight and greater FOV which may be of benefit to you. Some complain about the S&B 5-25 and it's "tunneling" issue which they claim makes it more of a 7-25x scope vs. a true 5-25. You're right, S&B is one of the scopes for all others to be measured, but some would argue that Tangent Theta and Minox ZP5 are even better than Schmidt, and now ZCO is coming on the scene with what might be something compelling as well, but if you can't wait for ZCO then any of these scopes will do.
     

    EagleScout501

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    Jan 31, 2012
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    Thanks wjm!

    Wont be used for hunting, I have a Vortex HD LH I have on a 6.5 that has been great so far for all my needs. We dont shoot much past 300 yards anyways so 25X would be way to much for that.

    I plan on using the scope for things more in the 400-1200 range. Yeah ive read a whole lot about the new TTs and see quite a few guys recommend Minox as well. I've just always wanted to own a S&B.

    Maybe the on the next one ;-)
     

    Glassaholic

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  • Nov 30, 2012
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    Sounds like you've done your homework Eagle. There are plenty of very happy Schmidt & Bender owners, I don't think you'll be disappointed. My only other recommendation would be to shop around, and ask the Hide dealers for their best price for a Snipers Hide member. Also, check the Hide classifieds, sometimes you can find killer deals on S&B scopes that are still in great condition, you can even put up a WTB in the classifieds and you may be surprised at the response you get, just make sure you don't overpay for the scope.
     
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    phxfa

    Gunny Sergeant
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    Mar 9, 2010
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    I have a H59 5-25 S&B inbound that I'm not going use, PM me if your interested
     

    hk dave

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  • Jun 7, 2011
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    Can't imagine someone in the long range game being unhappy with a PMII 5-25. I think you'll be happy.
     

    Jeffd

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    Feb 3, 2011
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    Good choice. Especially at the price now!
     

    EagleScout501

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    Check out the Tremor 3 reticle, it’s s H59 with the wind dots added as well. My favorite optic is the S&B 5-25 DT with this reticle.

    I know it may sound kind of ridiculous but I actually think the Tremor is too busy.
    I like the H59 because I have never shot 6.5 at distances more than 400 yards. I figured it would help me by making corrections quicker if I was shooting PRS.

    If I didnt land on the H59 I would actually go for something less cluttered like a Gen 2 XR. The NF and the USO that I own have a mil dot and a mil gap reticle that I have used for years now, im used to "less" in my reticle so if anything I would tend to lean more in that direction rather than a Tremor.
     

    stwcattle

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    Apr 22, 2017
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    My first top tier scope was a S&B PM II 5-25x56 I bought off a friend. Ive had the scope heck probably 10 years and I don't know how long my friend used it. Scope still performs flawlessly. I'm considering sending it in to update turets to mil and a T3 reticle which I'm running on a couple NF scopes.

    You will be very happy with the S&B if you decide to purchase one.
     

    redneckbmxer24

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  • Jan 15, 2005
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    I know it may sound kind of ridiculous but I actually think the Tremor is too busy.
    I like the H59 because I have never shot 6.5 at distances more than 400 yards. I figured it would help me by making corrections quicker if I was shooting PRS.

    If I didnt land on the H59 I would actually go for something less cluttered like a Gen 2 XR. The NF and the USO that I own have a mil dot and a mil gap reticle that I have used for years now, im used to "less" in my reticle so if anything I would tend to lean more in that direction rather than a Tremor.

    Are you sure you're not thinking of the Tremor 2? It does appear busy and you're almost stuck with only using the wind system.

    A far as the grid goes, T3 is just an H59 with the hashmarks on the underside of the horizontals removed and wind dots added, also wind dots at the .5 mil locations.

    I have H59's and T3's, I actually find the T3 quicker to use even when not using them for wind holds. The dots are very bold and stand out when counting the lines with your eye to figure out where you need to be for your hold over. So much so that I use the lines of dots to indicate what line I'm on vs the mil numbers at the ends.

    With the T3 you can hold both elevation and wind using mil values (like H59), or you can hold elevation in mil value and wind in wind speed with the dots. With both you can do the traditional dialing elevation and hold wind in mils.

    Using the wind system (very easy) has been beneficial to me for holds thinking in wind speed on the fly vs estimating wind and guessing my hold off of my full value 10mph number.

    Another benefit to the T3 is resale value. T3 equipped scopes sell way faster and hold their value better than the same optics in H59 because its a more desirable reticle.
     
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    EagleScout501

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    Are you sure you're not thinking of the Tremor 2? It does appear busy and you're almost stuck with only using the wind system.

    A far as the grid goes, T3 is just an H59 with the hashmarks on the underside of the horizontals removed and wind dots added, also wind dots at the .5 mil locations.

    I have H59's and T3's, I actually find the T3 quicker to use even when not using them for wind holds. The dots are very bold and stand out when counting the lines with your eye to figure out where you need to be for your hold over. So much so that I use the lines of dots to indicate what line I'm on vs the mil numbers at the ends.

    With the T3 you can hold both elevation and wind using mil values (like H59), or you can hold elevation in mil value and wind in wind speed with the dots. With both you can do the traditional dialing elevation and hold wind in mils.

    Using the wind system (very easy) has been beneficial to me for holds thinking in wind speed on the fly vs estimating wind and guessing my hold off of my full value 10mph number.

    Another benefit to the T3 is resale value. T3 equipped scopes sell way faster and hold their value better than the same optics in H59 because its a more desirable reticle.

    I was thinking of the T2, ive seen the T3 and honestly I just dont like the Tremor reticles. They become too much for me personally. Coming from a history of using nothing but mil dot or mil gap reticles Im kind of already stepping outside of my comfort zone with the H59, I just know how and why it could be of use to me for doing PRS and unknown distance shooting.

    As I was saying a while ago, id actually tend to lean to something cleaner like a Gen 2 XR if i didnt wind up on a H59.

    Must say though, its super reassuring to hear so many people speak positively about my purchase choice and about their experiences with these scopes.
     

    stwcattle

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    Apr 22, 2017
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    When looking at a Horus reticle, I often tell people to not pay attention to the reticle below 3 mil and above the center line.
    Reason I say this, holding the reticle becomes touph unless shooting large generous targets. 3 mil is 600 yards with my 6 creedmoor. I never hold more than 3 mils and it has to be on a 2moa. I honestly dont know how to use the T3 down there at 10 mils
    I have owned the H59. I prefer the T3 because of the wind dots. The really do work, when holding generous sized targets.
     

    Poorboyr

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    Feb 15, 2017
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    Good choice. You will be happy. I myself really like the gen II XR reticle. I wish it only had a center dot.
     

    Nik H

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  • Jan 22, 2014
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    The 5-25 with DT turrets and Gen II XR reticle is a great scope. It does have a couple of quirks like tunneling at the lowest magnification setting but other than that, there is not much lacking. I ran it on my AI AT for a couple of years and it never let me down. Personally, I did not like the MTC. I always overshot and had to come back. That is why I chose the DT model.

    I found the Gen II XR to be one of the best that S&B offers. It is uncluttered and really gives you a lot of capability. The only other one I considered is the H2CMR. S&B is coming out with a new reticle called the LRR. You should look into that one before you buy and determine if waiting is the right choice.

    I recently replaced the 5-25 on my AI AT with the NF 7-35 with the MIL-C reticle. The S&B now sits on my Larue AR10 tOBR. As part of the decision, I was strongly considering the Horus Tremor 3 versus the MIL-C. I did a lot of research on using the Horus and its benefits. Since I don't have access to a range longer than 600 yards unless I drive 3 hours, I decided to go with the MIL-C reticle. The Horus does make many things easier. If I had a long range close by, I would have probably chosen the Tremor 3.

    At any rate, you won't be disappointed with your choice.
     

    6point5CM

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    I too replaced my S&B PMII 5-25 H2CMR with a NF 7-35 MIL C on my match rifle. Still love the S&B and it went on my long range .300 WM. The ONLY thing I don't like about the S&B is the spacing between each click. Visually, it's hard to look and know exactly where you are. Luckily the clicks are very nice, and it's easy to visually identify the whole or half line, and count clicks from there. Visually, I love looking through it. You can't help but smile every time. The Gen II XR and H2CMR are my favorite reticles from S&B. A lot also like the MSR. Can't go wrong with a S&B, especially with current pricing.
     

    VegasHKShooter

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    A couple years ago I was in your same spot. I had NEVER dropped that kind of $$ on a scope. I knew enough to be dangerous,but I did a ton of research. Like you, I went with a S&B 5-25 PMII DT CCW Gen II XR. That went on my equally New and expensive GAP-10 in 6.5CM. I immediately knew I made the right decision when I got it mounted and zeroed.

    When it came time to glass up my A.I. AT, I really didn’t think I could or should do another Schmidt. However, everything else I looked through just didn’t stack up. I realized something: once you get to the really top tier scopes, it’s hard to go down. Get used to Kahles, NF ATACR or Beast, Gen II Razor, S&B, and you’re ruined. Well, I ended up with another S&B.
    Long story, I know, but it’s to say: you will not regret going with a S&B. They are truly incredible. There is a reason they are always at or near the top of everyone’s “best” list. Just know once you get there, it’s hard to ever go backwards.
     

    hk dave

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  • Jun 7, 2011
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    Like VegasHKShooter said, my only regret is having ever bought an S&B. I was perfectly happy with my little Nikons and SWFA scopes. :/
     

    Gil P.

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    What do you think about the new MSR 2 reticle? It should become available in the S&B. I got a lot of use out of the original MSR, it was a little thick, but the only time I noticed it was when I was shooting small dots at 100 yards. During matches it wasn't noticeable and extremely fast to use. The MSR 2 is .01 mil smaller in line thickness.
     

    Glassaholic

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  • Nov 30, 2012
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    Like VegasHKShooter said, my only regret is having ever bought an S&B. I was perfectly happy with my little Nikons and SWFA scopes. :/
    You and I have a similar history Dave and I blame the Hide! Before Snipers Hide I was perfectly happy with my Bausch & Lomb Elite 4000 4-16x50 and Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x44 scopes. If you would have asked me back then if a scope costing more than $1000 was worth it I would have laughed at you and thought "what a waste of money", but once you've "seen the light" it is hard to go back. That's why I try to recommend to shooters that if you're happy with your scope then why change?

    Do you guys see decently priced S&B's anywhere?
    All the time, Nik H gave good advice, call around to the reputable Hide Vendors, sometimes you can even find killer "demo" pricing on scopes that have never been mounted but were taken out of the box and can no longer be sold as new. I'd also highly recommend you look at the Hide's classifieds as you can get some great deals on used Schmidt's.
     

    longshot2000

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    I think you will be happy with the S&B. I have a number of scopes, but hard to beat S&B. H-59 and H-3 are my favourite reticles.

    The AMR is not the same. I like the Kahles SMR3 reticle is good, but personally, the AMR looks too much like graph paper. The good news is that many good scopes are looking more and more great each year. Steiner has some great offerings as does NF and many others. Don't be bothered about the "tunneling" issues with S&B. I have not had a problem. If you really want to reach out to 1,000 yrds, that is the scope. You have picked your knobs. Personally, I am an MTC guy, but I prefer tactical to target. Nothing wrong with your choice.

    Good luck
     

    EagleScout501

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    Really? you dont like the AMR? thats one of the things I liked about it the most was that it was so "grid-like" in layout. Super easy to read.

    Of course, MHS is taking pre-orders now on the ZCOs and that is always a possibility lol

    Maybe the next scope will have to be a ZCO or a TT
     

    VegasHKShooter

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    My DT came with Butler Creeks. My MTC came with much nicer caps. The name escapes me right now darn it.
    Both functional, but the MTC are much nicer.
     

    JohnDeereGuy1996

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    Not to hijack the thread but could anyone link me to the new S&B 20 year warranty terms? Is this just for factory defects or like a vortex warranty?
     
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    reubenski

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    I'm betting there will be a bunch of Schmidts for sale on the classifieds over the next 6 months as guys try to keep up with the Joneses with ZCO, Revic, and such starting to roll out pre-orders.

    I'm not above dumpster diving....
     
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    EagleScout501

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    I'm betting there will be a bunch of Schmidts for sale on the classifieds over the next 6 months as guys try to keep up with the Joneses with ZCO, Revic, and such starting to roll out pre-orders.

    I'm not above dumpster diving....

    That and I imagine if you were going to start a no shortcuts, nothing but the best scope company, you would have a team of people standing around a lab table with a S&B in the center of it and everyone going, "ok, what to we have to so to beat this?".
     

    BarrettBoy

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    Great scope.
    I'm sure you'll like it.
    Just make sure that you have about combined 40moa within the rail and rings or else you won't have full turret travel.