- Thread starter slim023
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That is difficult for me to say. I can say that on reasonably calm days my Winchester 52’s, Vudoo and KIDD SuperGrade’s all shoot sub MOA for 5 shot groups. On calm days 10 shot groups from the best rifles will be under .6”. Some 5 shot groups will be half that.
Try SK Rifle Match in your CZ, and if that doesn't work, try Eley Match EPS.
You have an ammo problem, not a rifle problem.
The mid-grade ammo you list is fine at short ranges, but from 100 and out, MOA or near it places a logarithmically increasing load on the the velocity consistency and general precision capabilities of your ammo.
At 200, you better have Match EPS, R100, Midas, Tenex... and/or a tuner.
-Nate
You have an ammo problem, not a rifle problem.
The mid-grade ammo you list is fine at short ranges, but from 100 and out, MOA or near it places a logarithmically increasing load on the the velocity consistency and general precision capabilities of your ammo.
At 200, you better have Match EPS, R100, Midas, Tenex... and/or a tuner.
-Nate
Go to the 6X5 thread above in the Stickys. Version one has a lot of 100yd. entries. The rifles, ammo, etc. used are all posted.
What all have you done to your rifle?
A bone stock rifle with nothing done to the stock or anything like that..... those could be your typical group sizes. Now after bedding and adding pillars you will probably see a vast improvement.
A bone stock rifle with nothing done to the stock or anything like that..... those could be your typical group sizes. Now after bedding and adding pillars you will probably see a vast improvement.
Results are in direct relationship to ammunition quality.
At 100 yards using standard velocity 22lr, 10 fps difference between shots produces about 0.25 inch vertical spread.
Typical match ammo has an ES of about 40 fps or 1 inch of vertical spread due to mv differences in 50 shots.
Get a run of similar mv's you produce sub-moa. Catch a hot or weak round and there goes your group size.
Mid grade 22lr has a mv spread of about 60 to 80 fps or 1.5 to 2 inches of vertical, bulk will show 80 plus fps.
You can learn to compensate for wind, but you can't compensate for poor quality ammunition.
No, actually you can compensate. Use a Crappy Ammo Target with an extended vertical scoring zone.
That way vertical spread won't kill your score, but poor wind judgement will.
for 100 yards
for 200 yards
At 100 yards using standard velocity 22lr, 10 fps difference between shots produces about 0.25 inch vertical spread.
Typical match ammo has an ES of about 40 fps or 1 inch of vertical spread due to mv differences in 50 shots.
Get a run of similar mv's you produce sub-moa. Catch a hot or weak round and there goes your group size.
Mid grade 22lr has a mv spread of about 60 to 80 fps or 1.5 to 2 inches of vertical, bulk will show 80 plus fps.
You can learn to compensate for wind, but you can't compensate for poor quality ammunition.
No, actually you can compensate. Use a Crappy Ammo Target with an extended vertical scoring zone.
That way vertical spread won't kill your score, but poor wind judgement will.
for 100 yards
for 200 yards
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10 shot groups at 100 yards average 1 inch horizontal by 0.5 inch vertical. 5 shot at 50 yards around 0.4-0.45 inch.
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100 yds with a 22lr is more about conditions and less about extreme accuracy of your system, however I agree that to be able to shoot well in conditions you need to start out with solid accuracy. With a factory rifle like the CZ and mid grade ammo in good conditions I would expect an average to be around 1-1.2 MOA with some good groups down around 0.750 MOA on occasion. If you properly select ammo (lot test for your conditions and distance) for that same rifle I would expect to see about a 0.200-0.250 MOA drop (maybe). If you were to go full meal deal ultra premium custom rifle with properly selected top shelf ammo in good conditions I would expect 0.500-0.600 MOA, defiantly sub 0.750 MOA. This is all for average accuracy not extreme best accuracy.
So I would say that you may be seeing the potential of your rifle with that ammo. Not to say that there isn't room for improvement for that combo, some tuning of the rifle without changing parts could help tighten things up a bit. If anything start by paying attention to lot #s and how they shoot for you.
For reference of extreme accuracy I have shot several 0.250 MOA or slightly less groups @ 100 yards with the best rifle / ammo (I have owned 2 different rifles that would do that accuracy) combo in excellent conditions. Those rifles would turn in a good number of groups at 50 yards better than I could shoot, like 0.0XX inches. So my point is accuracy potential for these little rimfires can be as good as a bolt gun, but the least little bit of weather will change everything!!
So I would say that you may be seeing the potential of your rifle with that ammo. Not to say that there isn't room for improvement for that combo, some tuning of the rifle without changing parts could help tighten things up a bit. If anything start by paying attention to lot #s and how they shoot for you.
For reference of extreme accuracy I have shot several 0.250 MOA or slightly less groups @ 100 yards with the best rifle / ammo (I have owned 2 different rifles that would do that accuracy) combo in excellent conditions. Those rifles would turn in a good number of groups at 50 yards better than I could shoot, like 0.0XX inches. So my point is accuracy potential for these little rimfires can be as good as a bolt gun, but the least little bit of weather will change everything!!
Is that a typical group at 50 yards? What has been done to the gun?
It' s an factory Annie, not a CZ. I couldn't tell if you were only looking for results from CZ's or overall. I went back and measured a lot of targets and it is more like 0.4-0.45, I changed it in upper post for correction.
I don't think it was specific to CZ. Mine is a CZ in Boyd's stock and pillar bedded and I can get about 0.5" pretty consistently with good ammo. I just cleaned the gun so lets see how it shoots.
At the factory test facilities, for Lapua and Eley, they keep track of best 40 shot composite groups.
These are from the best rifles and ammunition available, indoors, from a bench mounted fixture
using digital target systems and computer imaging/data collection.
Best 40 shot groups are 13 to 15 mm or about 0.5 to 0.6 inches at 50 yards.
I believe the measurement is outside edges at widest point.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-shots-at-50m-new-record-at-eley-test-center/
These are from the best rifles and ammunition available, indoors, from a bench mounted fixture
using digital target systems and computer imaging/data collection.
Best 40 shot groups are 13 to 15 mm or about 0.5 to 0.6 inches at 50 yards.
I believe the measurement is outside edges at widest point.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-shots-at-50m-new-record-at-eley-test-center/
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Most of the 455s around here will hold about 1 MOA with most flavors of match ammo.
After some ammo testing that tightens up to about 3/4, maybe a little under.
Most of my rimfire boltguns will hold under 3/4 at 100 with many groups being well under that.
At 50 its about the ammo. At 100 its about you. Past that, its about everything.
After some ammo testing that tightens up to about 3/4, maybe a little under.
Most of my rimfire boltguns will hold under 3/4 at 100 with many groups being well under that.
At 50 its about the ammo. At 100 its about you. Past that, its about everything.
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I just ordered a few boxes to give it a try in my 10/22's
Mine loved this ammo also. It has expensive taste!
Federal Ultra Match is great and if takes a little time looking for deals, the price can be not all that bad.
Also, don't forget to take a look at Lapua 22lr ammo . . . like Center-X , which I found is pretty much a toss up with Ultra Match (though, a little more greasy).
Also, don't forget to take a look at Lapua 22lr ammo . . . like Center-X , which I found is pretty much a toss up with Ultra Match (though, a little more greasy).
If you find a deal shoot me a pm.
I do not have 100 yard targets to show, but here is 9 (+1 were I sighted the scope) at 25y and 6 more groups @ 50 yards (one in the center X). At 100 all 4, 5 shot groups were well under an inch, but I didn't really pay to much attention as I was just looking to confirm dope for NRL22 type stuff. 0=25; 50=0 100=1.9mils drop.. turned out easy.
It was the first rounds out of my Vudoo off a bipod, not a rest. I do have to say that it out shoots my MKII, my old CZ and the RPR-rimfire. I did not have 50yrd dope use my AB and "surprise" it was off, next group left 1/10 to much wind in, 3-6th group had the correct drop info.
The difference is the Vudoo just shoots and my CZ, MKII and RPR all are VERY specific. The latter 3, all like different ammo; one likes Ely Club another, FGMM better, PRIME shoots way over there, FGMM over here, a total crap shoot, on POI shifts. You need to test the ammo no way around it on most production 22s. The offsets between 22 ammo is just nuts, so switching between ammo isn't so easy on the MKII, CZ or RPR. I must have tested about 20 different types in the MKII, CZ and RPR. The Vudoo, opened the box, sighted in the scope then shot a few groups. 2 boxes down, I was supper happy with my wait for it done. Then ran off to a NRL22 match the following Sunday
Either way - whoever said 22LR isn't about gear, well, I don't have an answer, the proof is in the shooting.. I might be a lame ass shooter, but I look and place much worse on lesser stuff..
It was the first rounds out of my Vudoo off a bipod, not a rest. I do have to say that it out shoots my MKII, my old CZ and the RPR-rimfire. I did not have 50yrd dope use my AB and "surprise" it was off, next group left 1/10 to much wind in, 3-6th group had the correct drop info.
The difference is the Vudoo just shoots and my CZ, MKII and RPR all are VERY specific. The latter 3, all like different ammo; one likes Ely Club another, FGMM better, PRIME shoots way over there, FGMM over here, a total crap shoot, on POI shifts. You need to test the ammo no way around it on most production 22s. The offsets between 22 ammo is just nuts, so switching between ammo isn't so easy on the MKII, CZ or RPR. I must have tested about 20 different types in the MKII, CZ and RPR. The Vudoo, opened the box, sighted in the scope then shot a few groups. 2 boxes down, I was supper happy with my wait for it done. Then ran off to a NRL22 match the following Sunday
Either way - whoever said 22LR isn't about gear, well, I don't have an answer, the proof is in the shooting.. I might be a lame ass shooter, but I look and place much worse on lesser stuff..
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I have had one CZ 22 bolt rifle, it was the varmint version, and a long time ago, as well as my attempt to try something other than Anschutz.
This rifle was bone stock, and with two types of match ammo it was just inside 1" at 50Y, with CCI green tag and some other standard regular ammo it was more like 1.5".
I have seen some very accurate CZ's, and they function well, but this was my personal experience so back to Anny I went.
This rifle was bone stock, and with two types of match ammo it was just inside 1" at 50Y, with CCI green tag and some other standard regular ammo it was more like 1.5".
I have seen some very accurate CZ's, and they function well, but this was my personal experience so back to Anny I went.
All my current rifles will do .2’s or better at 50 yards and around 1/2” or better at 100 yards (all ammo I run is lot tested ). All my guns are custom fit match Barrels and fully reworked. Equipment is important but the most important parts of the gun are the barrel and the ignition. Make any one of those or both crappy and that gun will be a dog. At 50 yards or closer most setups that are decent will do well but when you stretch out further to 100 and beyond, things fall apart real quick! I like cz’s cause I can easily get the accuracy I want, it’s cost effective, and they function flawlessly in every way. The Anschutz rifles I like as well but it’s more work to get solid feeding and ejection. The benefit with one of those is less work on the ignition side and you get a better trigger, finished rifle, and most of the time and smoother action. I use to build savage mkII’s and while I can get the accuracy right on par, function is where it went out the window! Those magazines are terrible lol. Use to get a kick out of shooting one at the range with a custom fitted barrel and telling guys It’s new right out of the box lol.
This target was from a custom built 452 I did and shot it at 100 yards in a match on RFC (note measurements are outside edge not center to center, ctc those groups are in the .3’s!). The other target was shot with a custom built 455 I did in a klinsky stock, that rifle was absolutely insane!
This target was from a custom built 452 I did and shot it at 100 yards in a match on RFC (note measurements are outside edge not center to center, ctc those groups are in the .3’s!). The other target was shot with a custom built 455 I did in a klinsky stock, that rifle was absolutely insane!
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452 was shot off a bipod and the klinsky was off a rest. The 452 had an 18” threaded custom made to my spec Lilja 3 groove barrel with a chamber I designed and the 455 used the same blank but wasn’t threaded and was 24” long. Both where bedded, triggers, full bolt work etc. Both rifles pictured below.
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How are you getting the klinsky stocks?
Use to be able to get them from a guy named Denny but he isn’t doing it anymore as far as I know. The one above was bought directly from the Czech Republic and shipped to the USA. It is a pain to do as they don’t speak very good English so it’s hard to understand them and you gotta wire the money to their bank. If your able to deal with all that you can most certainly get one!
I'd love to have their AICS style stock but I'm guessing it would be easier and cheaper to have a real AICS done for my CZ 455
The klinsky goes for about $330 plus shipping. Total cost my guess is $400, maybe a little less.
Maybe someday
Check out this place every so often and I've found some good deals there:
http://www.brunoshooters.com/category/rimfire_ammo.html
That’s about it. FWIW, I settled on SK Pistol Match for the CZ 455 in the stable. It’s quite accurate, affordable, and has a great BC. I can reach 400yd without holdover, which I can’t do with most other ammo. I tried 50-100rd each of at least a dozen kinds of ammo when making that selection, and a couple were junk, but most Match ammo shot quite well.
100y outdoor, in good conditions you can expect to do sub MOA with good ammo. With perfect conditions, lot selected ammo, and maybe even a tuner, you can get down to 1/2 MOA or maybe less with some of those groups going down to much less. Still, the ammo, and wind will be the killers. You can shoot 4 shots and that last one will be 1/2" high or low and then with the same ammo, shoot 10 in a row that are dead on. One puff of wind and it all goes to hell. The attached 6x5 was from 100y with Lapua ammo (CX) using an Anschutz M54 with a 20x tgt scope. Conditions were adequate. The results were typical, not best ever. The second tgt was with a Rem 540XR using Lapua CX ammo at 100y. It was a best ever grp and those are as much luck as skill at that distance and even then the last shot dropped low left on me. That was also part of a 6x5 that averaged just under 1/2 MOA. Results like that require perfect outdoor or indoor conditions and lot selected ammo as well as loads of concentration and some luck. That rifle had a trick muzzle tuner on it at the time which tightened up the 50y groups by 20-25%. Vertical stringing from velocity variance alone will drive you nuts. The best 22lr ammo is still crap when it comes to consistency. The spin of some rifles do better at longer range than others. My Annie is supreme at 50y but is only ok at 100y. The Remington was better at 100y that I would have expected but does it fairly consistently. Apparently it stabilizes the bullet a little better? If you watch a 22lr bullet as it flys down range, it is in a wobble the entire flight. So, stability is marginal.
Irish
Irish
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on any given day less than 2" at 100M. including shooter, environmentals, the guy next to you distracting you, inscets, not lotting / weighing, rim thicking out the ammo, etc.
more than that i start checking the nuts and bolts for looseness, followed by a barrel cleaning.
though sub MOA is where i usually am, if you expect it all of or most of the time, you'll get frustrated really quick. 1.3-1.6 is nothing to get frustrated with, and you should feel confident that you are on your way to sub moa groups with a whole bunch of the "little things" that add up to make the difference - including trigger time.
Come on TP. You know you do that "all day" when "the conditions are right" and "when you do your part." LOL!
On a serious note slim; TP is correct. You've got decent equipment and once you tune yourself and your ammo, you will watch the groups shrink. Don't chase. Let it flow.
On a serious note slim; TP is correct. You've got decent equipment and once you tune yourself and your ammo, you will watch the groups shrink. Don't chase. Let it flow.
Which Ammo is your RPR happiest with if you don’t mind me asking?I do not have 100 yard targets to show, but here is 9 (+1 were I sighted the scope) at 25y and 6 more groups @ 50 yards (one in the center X). At 100 all 4, 5 shot groups were well under an inch, but I didn't really pay to much attention as I was just looking to confirm dope for NRL22 type stuff. 0=25; 50=0 100=1.9mils drop.. turned out easy.
View attachment 6902646
It was the first rounds out of my Vudoo off a bipod, not a rest. I do have to say that it out shoots my MKII, my old CZ and the RPR-rimfire. I did not have 50yrd dope use my AB and "surprise" it was off, next group left 1/10 to much wind in, 3-6th group had the correct drop info.
The difference is the Vudoo just shoots and my CZ, MKII and RPR all are VERY specific. The latter 3, all like different ammo; one likes Ely Club another, FGMM better, PRIME shoots way over there, FGMM over here, a total crap shoot, on POI shifts. You need to test the ammo no way around it on most production 22s. The offsets between 22 ammo is just nuts, so switching between ammo isn't so easy on the MKII, CZ or RPR. I must have tested about 20 different types in the MKII, CZ and RPR. The Vudoo, opened the box, sighted in the scope then shot a few groups. 2 boxes down, I was supper happy with my wait for it done. Then ran off to a NRL22 match the following Sunday
Either way - whoever said 22LR isn't about gear, well, I don't have an answer, the proof is in the shooting.. I might be a lame ass shooter, but I look and place much worse on lesser stuff..
