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Gunsmithing Accurate AR-15.

M

Mr_Brass

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 10, 2010
541
0
35
45x90 WI.
#1
Ok So a friend of mine has an upper. And it can not do better than 2 MOA. its a bushmaster 16" M4 1x9 chrome lined and what nots.

He first shot PMC through it and was getting 2 MOA. I gave him some S&B and still 2 MOA. so we went from the 55gr FMJs to some 62gr ss109s still 2 MOA. than some hornaday 75gr TAP. And you guessed it 2 MOA. even spit a few groups of black hills 69gr match. and still 2 MOA.

Now here is the catch, send wolf down range 3/4" all ... day..... long.

We took it to 2 smiths that found nothing wrong with it.

Any of he pros here have any ideas? does his upper just like "junk" ammo? or is there maybe an underlying problem?


On A side note while I'm here. what is it that makes an accurate AR? is it mostly in the barrel or in the upper , bolt, and barrel?

I myself have a bushmaster upper (gets 1.5 MOA no matter what even with wolf) and thought about rebarreling it. I hear its not hard to rebarrel an AR platform so I figured I could do it myself.

My question is what barrel? I would like to get an 18" mid legth chrome moly (as I hear SS doesn't do well under heavy fire and this rifle could be used for that.) any suggestions? I was thinking about the following if SS can take a 30 to 60 round string with out and real issues.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=688404

thanks a bunch for any help.
 
#2
Re: Accurate AR-15.

1.) <span style="text-decoration: underline">Get a quality bbl </span>on it Such as a <span style="font-weight: bold">Krieger</span> or <span style="font-weight: bold">WOA</span>.

2.) <span style="text-decoration: underline">Get a quality trigger </span>on it such as a <span style="font-weight: bold">Geisselle</span> or even a <span style="font-weight: bold">Rock River 2-Stage.</span>


It has ALOT to do with the guy thats shooting the rifle/AR also. Give that AR to the best shooter (forget about your ego for 5mins) at your range and see how he shoots it. If its stll 2MOA change the bbl and trigger and learn some good shooting techniques if you want it to shoot good. I would imagine if you bought (wasted) your money on buying a DPMS bbl from midway usa you still would be shooting the same size groups.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Feed it good ammo </span>- Black Hills, Federal Gold Metal Match or load up some good reloads for it.

If it has a 1-9 Twist try some medium wieght bullets like the 50gr.-60gr. bullets, its most likely not going to like the heavier bullets with the 1-9twist.

I had a 1-9 bbl on a old build and it loved the Black Hills <span style="font-weight: bold">52gr. Match ammo</span>. It shot .5" groups at 100yrds. I also had a good shooting technique. It also liked the <span style="font-weight: bold">60gr. Hornady TAP </span>ammo.


Good luck.
 
#3
Re: Accurate AR-15.

Try 69gr FGMM and have several people shoot it.
(That upper should shoot pretty well with 55gr M193 ammo though.)

Arguably the most important part of accuracy in an AR next to the quality of the barrel is how the barrel extension fits into the upper receiver.
If it isn't tight, it needs to be shimmed.

Other things to check would be to check the bore with a bore scope to see if there are any defects and to also check the crown.
Take the hand guards / forward rail off and check to see if the barrel nut is loose or touching the gas tube.
If not using a "free floating" hand guard setup, try shooting it with the hand guards removed.

2 stage NM triggers make a huge difference, but that is in the shooter not the gun.
Same can be said about the fit between the upper and lower receiver.

Good Luck and try not to get too frustrated.
 
#4
Re: Accurate AR-15.

I don't mind that my upper is 1.5MOA but my friend is a bit puzzled that his shoots best with wolf ammo. We have fed his good ammo and still 2MOA.

Dnd DPMS barrels are that crappy?

Oh and for his AR. we have let many ppl shoot it to no avail.
 
#5
Re: Accurate AR-15.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try 69gr FGMM and have several people shoot it.
(That upper should shoot pretty well with 55gr M193 ammo though.)

Arguably the most important part of accuracy in an AR next to the quality of the barrel is how the barrel extension fits into the upper receiver.
If it isn't tight, it needs to be shimmed.

Other things to check would be to check the bore with a bore scope to see if there are any defects and to also check the crown.
Take the hand guards / forward rail off and check to see if the barrel nut is loose or touching the gas tube.
If not using a "free floating" hand guard setup, try shooting it with the hand guards removed.

2 stage NM triggers make a huge difference, but that is in the shooter not the gun.
Same can be said about the fit between the upper and lower receiver.

Good Luck and try not to get too frustrated.
</div></div>

Thanks mate. Maybe I'll get a few boxes of them FGMM and we'll shoot that. Although we have shot 69gr match black hills.
 
#6
Re: Accurate AR-15.

I made 2 Bushmaster's and 1 Stag Arms uppers with 16" chrome lined barrels with 1:9 twist half their group size by free floating the forend. I replaced the stock handguards and delta ring with Yankee Hill Machine 4 rail handguards. You can test it out by removing the stock handguards and shooting some groups without touching the barrel on the sand bags. I never did get the PMC Bronze ammo to group worth a dern. The 2 Bushmasters are a buddy's and he gets 1" 10 shot groups at 100 yards using factory 50 grain ammo. I have never shot factory other than the PMC bronze but get just under 1" with 25.0 grains of TAC and 55 grain Nosler Ballistic tip. I have a Leupold 2-7 on that rifle.
As far as DPMS, I bought one of the cheapest DPMS uppers that Midway sold. I was a 20" Stainless heavy barrel with free floated forend. This upper shoots 1-1/2" 10 shot groups at 250 yards all day long (with light to no wind) using the same load. We shoot 60mm clay pigeons at 300 yards and it has no trouble making the cut. When I first got this upper it didn't shoot that well. The hand guard is also the barrel nut and I kept noticing it getting loose. I finally took some teflon tape and rolled it into a rope and made a few wraps above the flange on the barrel extension. Finally got a fair amount of torque on the hand guard with the swivel studs aligned properly and the gas tube indexed correctly and it started shooting much better. I have a 6.5-20 Sightron on it.

The heaviest bullets I ever got to group decently out of any of the 1:9 twist barrels was 60 grain Nosler ballistic tips. I tried Nosler 69 grain match, Hornady 60 grain V-Max, Hornady 75 grain A-Max, Sierra 69 grain, Nosler 50 grain ballistic tip, Nosler 52 grain ballistic tip and several others and nothing shot as well as the 55 grain ballistic tips. This load (25.0 grains TAC with 55 grain ballistic tip) shot well in 2 Bushmasters w/ 1:9 16" barrels, 1 Stag Arms with 1:9 16" barrel, 1 Rock River arms with 1:9 18" Heavy Varmint, 1 Remington R-15 1:9 20" barrel, 1 DPMS 1:9 20" stainless heavy barrel, 2 - 1:12 15" Thompson Encore pistol barrels and 2 - 1:12 26" Thompson Encore rifle barrels. I've put 5,000 + thru the RCBS Pro 2000 since then.
 
#7
Re: Accurate AR-15.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xr650rRider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I made 2 Bushmaster's and 1 Stag Arms uppers with 16" chrome lined barrels with 1:9 twist half their group size by free floating the forend. I replaced the stock handguards and delta ring with Yankee Hill Machine 4 rail handguards. You can test it out by removing the stock handguards and shooting some groups without touching the barrel on the sand bags. I never did get the PMC Bronze ammo to group worth a dern. The 2 Bushmasters are a buddy's and he gets 1" 10 shot groups at 100 yards using factory 50 grain ammo. I have never shot factory other than the PMC bronze but get just under 1" with 25.0 grains of TAC and 55 grain Nosler Ballistic tip. I have a Leupold 2-7 on that rifle.
As far as DPMS, I bought one of the cheapest DPMS uppers that Midway sold. I was a 20" Stainless heavy barrel with free floated forend. This upper shoots 1-1/2" 10 shot groups at 250 yards all day long (with light to no wind) using the same load. We shoot 60mm clay pigeons at 300 yards and it has no trouble making the cut. When I first got this upper it didn't shoot that well. The hand guard is also the barrel nut and I kept noticing it getting loose. I finally took some teflon tape and rolled it into a rope and made a few wraps above the flange on the barrel extension. Finally got a fair amount of torque on the hand guard with the swivel studs aligned properly and the gas tube indexed correctly and it started shooting much better. I have a 6.5-20 Sightron on it.

The heaviest bullets I ever got to group decently out of any of the 1:9 twist barrels was 60 grain Nosler ballistic tips. I tried Nosler 69 grain match, Hornady 60 grain V-Max, Hornady 75 grain A-Max, Sierra 69 grain, Nosler 50 grain ballistic tip, Nosler 52 grain ballistic tip and several others and nothing shot as well as the 55 grain ballistic tips. This load (25.0 grains TAC with 55 grain ballistic tip) shot well in 2 Bushmasters w/ 1:9 16" barrels, 1 Stag Arms with 1:9 16" barrel, 1 Rock River arms with 1:9 18" Heavy Varmint, 1 Remington R-15 1:9 20" barrel, 1 DPMS 1:9 20" stainless heavy barrel, 2 - 1:12 15" Thompson Encore pistol barrels and 2 - 1:12 26" Thompson Encore rifle barrels. I've put 5,000 + thru the RCBS Pro 2000 since then. </div></div>

Nice, So would you say you have had a good experience with DPMS barrels? I really want to get an 18" mid length for my ar.
 
#8
#9
Re: Accurate AR-15.

I can't complain about the DPMS I own. If they didn't have the manufacturers name on the side, you couldn't tell the difference between any of them. You'll have people tell you that Stag Arms are the worst thing made, while they tell you Colt is one of the best. What they don't realize is that Continental Machine Tools is the parent company of Stag Arms and makes 80% of the parts ever used in AR-15's.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/stags-super-tackdriver

I don't know who makes the barrels for DPMS, I doubt they make their own. I know Wilson was the supplier for Rock River, as I had an upper on order for about 1 year, and it was delayed due to the inability of Wilson to turn out barrels fast enough.
 
#10
Re: Accurate AR-15.

I addition to the parts you have listed, you'll need a bolt, bolt carrier, charging handle, gas block and tube. For that Yankee Hill forend I would recommend you get the end cap for the barrel size your using. I would also strongly suggest you get the Yankee Hill spanner tool for tightening the lock ring. I didn't on the first one and there just isn't a good way to tighten it without putting dings in your new forend. You'll also need an upper receiver block to put in vise to hold upper.

By the time you add up all the parts you can buy a pretty nice complete upper.
 
#11
Re: Accurate AR-15.

yeah. I know I'll need all that other stuff I ws just putting a reference point of what I was looking at doing. I was looking at getting a CMMG 18" medcon mid length for $575. (actually been on my list for a long time) Only thing I am not sure about is the chrome lining. people say that it will kill accuracy but I have seen chrome lined barrels turn 1/2 MOA so I don't see how that's 100% true.

I have also looked into the stag 6H uppers but 24" and 12Lb is a bit much for a hunting/ tactical rifle in my eye. plus I'm not one for polished SS barrels. (although powder coating is an option.)
 
#13
Re: Accurate AR-15.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you look up "accurate AR in the distionary, you'll find a picture of a WHITE OAK </div></div>

Since I finally found a place that sell them without having to go through a special order process I think I'll pick this up in a mid length configuration.

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=449
 
#14
Re: Accurate AR-15.

Now you are on the right track. Get a stainless match barrel and free-float it. You'll be below 1 MOA. Anything less than a 1 MOA AR is excellent. If it shoots less than 1MOA for a 5-shot group that is excellent. If it can shoot less than 1MOA for 20 shots, that is outstanding and you can compete well with it.
 
#15
Re: Accurate AR-15.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now you are on the right track. Get a stainless match barrel and free-float it. You'll be below 1 MOA. Anything less than a 1 MOA AR is excellent. If it shoots less than 1MOA for a 5-shot group that is excellent. If it can shoot less than 1MOA for 20 shots, that is outstanding and you can compete well with it. </div></div>

so can you tell me why black hills doesn't shoot very well but wolf shoots good?
 
#16
Re: Accurate AR-15.

" so can you tell me why black hills doesn't shoot very well but wolf shoots good? "

cant say why, but some barrels just like certain loads. I have one rifle that shoots federal ammo i got at walmart better than anything we have tried loading for it.

If i had a rifle that loved wolf ammo i think it would be a good thing. That stuff is dirt cheap.
 
#17
Re: Accurate AR-15.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">" so can you tell me why black hills doesn't shoot very well but wolf shoots good? "

cant say why, but some barrels just like certain loads. I have one rifle that shoots federal ammo i got at walmart better than anything we have tried loading for it.

If i had a rifle that loved wolf ammo i think it would be a good thing. That stuff is dirt cheap. </div></div>

yeah kinda what I was thinking. I was also thinking I wonder if my rifle just likes slower loads? guess that's a possibility seeing as my 30-06 hates factory ammo that's about 2900FPS where as I hand load about 2700 and its much much more accuate.
 
#18
Re: Accurate AR-15.

If I got my AR's to shoot 3/4 MOA with Wolf I would be happy. That stuff is cheap and easy to find. So, what is the issue? Rifles and barrels seem to have a personality so go with it. Be glad that you found what it likes without beating yourself over the head with expensive Federal ammo and wondering why you couldn’t get it to shoot.
 
#19
Re: Accurate AR-15.

Oh I'm not pissed I can't shoot "good ammo" I just think its funny wolf is "shit ammo" and shoots best out of my rifle. Tis why I think something is wrong with my upper.
 
#20
Re: Accurate AR-15.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr06</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh I'm not pissed I can't shoot "good ammo" I just think its funny wolf is "shit ammo" and shoots best out of my rifle. Tis why I think something is wrong with my upper. </div></div>

What bullets are in the Wolf? What bullets are in the Black Hills? What is the twist rate on your barrel? That'd be the first couple questions I'd ask. The general rule is that a quality barrel will shoot most types of ammo well and a "fair" barrel will be more picky on what it shoots well if anything. Barrels are frustrating as a certain amount of "luck of the draw" is involved no matter how much you spend on one. As mentioned by others, the barrel and the chambering are the two most important variables to improve accuracy. Other important factors are getting a properly headspaced/matched bolt & free floating the barrel.

If you are willing to spend on a barrel, get Compass Lake Engineering to chamber a Krieger blank for you and provide a matching bolt. I'd recommend a Wylde chamber.
 
#21
Re: Accurate AR-15.

I have currently a DPMS 16" barrel and using 69 grain match kings with Hodgedon 332 powder get 1/2" groups or less@ 100 yards~!....Barrel break in is important on a new gun....Also, proper cheek weld and sight alignment....but why the inconsistency unless using Wolf?

I am using an old Tasco 4X10 power scope, or the AN/PVS-2 scope without a glitch..
 
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