Range Report Across Water shots

BigDaddy0381

BigDaddy0381

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    • Nov 13, 2010
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    #1
    If you’re shooting across water from a stationary platform to a stationary target would you use the same dope and take the shot as if you were shooting across land?

    Example, a 900 yard shot! First 100 across land, 750 across water and 50 land to target. No wind. Would the drop stay the same? Or would you need to calculate for more humidity?
     
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    #2
    Re: Across Water shots

    When the trajectory passes over water, the velocity of the bullet goes from fps to knots. This abrupt change in units causes the bullet to yaw port side, but the cyclonic weather patterns present over large bodies of water in the northern hemisphere offset the deflection so that the net effect is zero.
     
    #3
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the trajectory passes over water, the velocity of the bullet goes from fps to knots. This abrupt change in units causes the bullet to yaw port side, but the cyclonic weather patterns present over large bodies of water in the northern hemisphere offset the deflection so that the net effect is zero. </div></div>
    LMAO!! Nice, Bryan!
     
    #4
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the trajectory passes over water, the velocity of the bullet goes from fps to knots. This abrupt change in units causes the bullet to yaw port side, but the cyclonic weather patterns present over large bodies of water in the northern hemisphere offset the deflection so that the net effect is zero. </div></div>
    Now that's funny. I'm getting popcorn for the discussions to come from that response.
    laugh.gif
     
    #5
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the trajectory passes over water, the velocity of the bullet goes from fps to knots. This abrupt change in units causes the bullet to yaw port side, but the cyclonic weather patterns present over large bodies of water in the northern hemisphere offset the deflection so that the net effect is zero.</div></div>

    That is a very intelligent sounding way of putting it!! LOL
     
    #6
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the trajectory passes over water, the velocity of the bullet goes from fps to knots. This abrupt change in units causes the bullet to yaw port side, but the cyclonic weather patterns present over large bodies of water in the northern hemisphere offset the deflection so that the net effect is zero. </div></div>

    ROFLMAO
    cry.gif
     
    #7
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the trajectory passes over water, the velocity of the bullet goes from fps to knots. This abrupt change in units causes the bullet to yaw port side, but the cyclonic weather patterns present over large bodies of water in the northern hemisphere offset the deflection so that the net effect is zero. </div></div>

    Thats great!!! funny stuff!! Thanks..
     
    #8
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the trajectory passes over water, the velocity of the bullet goes from fps to knots. This abrupt change in units causes the bullet to yaw port side, but the cyclonic weather patterns present over large bodies of water in the northern hemisphere offset the deflection so that the net effect is zero. </div></div>


    So in the southern hemisphere its effect would be doubled then right? C'mon.....that supposition goes in direct conflict with my data from the Amazonian Pygmy Shoot last year.
     
    #10
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the trajectory passes over water, the velocity of the bullet goes from fps to knots. This abrupt change in units causes the bullet to yaw port side, but the cyclonic weather patterns present over large bodies of water in the northern hemisphere offset the deflection so that the net effect is zero. </div></div>


    So in the southern hemisphere its effect would be doubled then right? C'mon.....thiat goes in direct conflict with my data from the Amazonian Pygmy Shoot last year. </div></div>

    Actually...

    As fate would have it, when a bullet flies over a land/water interface in the southern hemisphere, the unit switch from fps to knots causes a <span style="font-weight: bold">starboard</span> yaw because of how the Mach cone inverts a pressure discontinuity below the equator. This starboard yaw is neutralized by the equal and opposite counter-rotating cyclonic air masses found below 0 degrees latitude. Fortunately, another 'net zero' lateral effect.

    In the vertical plane, the increased pull of gravity due to flying over the more dense water is offset by the higher humidity, lower density air found over water (good insight from the OP). Another close call, but zero net deflection.
     
    #11
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgp2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about the effects of the moon on the water? </div></div>

    Effects of high tide on the shooters side of the lake are offset by low tide on the target's side. Zero net effect.

    But the position of the moon can be important when shooting at night. When shooting under a new moon at night, the bullet drop is less because the moon and sun are aligned overhead, and their combined gravitational pull oppose the earth's at a maximum. However, due to the effects of lighting on target image, (lights up-sights up) the increased darkness makes up for the reduced gravity.

    Converse for shooting under a full moon.

    Thankfully, zero net effect.

    Moon phases are more important during the day when the moon doesn't effect the lighting of the target. In that case, the effects of the moons gravity vector are offset by the interaction of solar flares and the earths magnetic field. The 'lights up-sights up' logic still applies here, but in this case the electromagnetic energy is in the non-visible spectrum, but still affects optics the same as visible light.

    Once again, zero net effect.
     
    #12
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the trajectory passes over water, the velocity of the bullet goes from fps to knots. This abrupt change in units causes the bullet to yaw port side, but the cyclonic weather patterns present over large bodies of water in the northern hemisphere offset the deflection so that the net effect is zero. </div></div>


    So in the southern hemisphere its effect would be doubled then right? C'mon.....that supposition goes in direct conflict with my data from the Amazonian Pygmy Shoot last year. </div></div>

    SB. Did you get to shoot some real Pygmy's at this competition? How can I sign up? The funnest thing I ever got to to was toss a midget (little person) onto a velcro wall for $10.00 at the State Fair.
     
    #13
    Re: Across Water shots

    Bryan- You posting that reminds me of an old joke:

    A guy is sitting at a bar in a skyscraper restaurant high above the city. He's slamming tequila left and right. he grabs one, drinks it, goes over to a window and jumps out. The guy who was sitting next to him couldn't believe that the guy had just done that. He was more surprised when, ten minutes later, the same guy, unscathed, comes walking back into the bar and sits back down next to him. The astonished guy asks," How did you do that???? I just saw you jump out that window and we're hundreds of feet above the ground!!!" The jumper responds by slurring, "Well, I don't get it either. I slam a shot of tequila and when I jump out the window, the tequila makes me slow down right before I hit the ground. Watch." He takes a shot, slams it down, goes tot the window and jumps out. The other guy runs to the window and watches as the guy falls until right before the ground, slows down and lands softly on his feet. A few minutes later, the guy walks back into the bar. The other guy has to try it too, so he orders a shot of tequila. he drinks it and goes to the window and jumps. As he reaches the bottom, he doesn't slow down at all....SPLAT!!!!!! The first guy orders another shot of tequila and the bartender says to him," You're really an jerk when you're drunk, Superman."
     
    #15
    Re: Across Water shots

    The only projectile I'm aware of that has a trajectory that is affected by passing over a body of water is...a golf ball.

    There seems to be some kind of van der Waal's attraction between the water and the rubber/plastic ball because mine always seem to fall short and land in the water. As they're composed of nonferrous metallic elements, bullets should be immune to this phenomena.
     
    #16
    Re: Across Water shots

    i'm probably going to get flamed too, but here it goes:

    when you think of all the theories / factors that is spoken to on here about air temp, wind, barometric pressure, feet above see level and humidity - then the OP's question has some merit.
    perhaps not for adjusting for humidity, but the cooler air that is above the water (no wind) at that distance, just like adjusting for "thermals" shooting over ground.

    bigdaddy0381, i don't know how it would be accounted for, or if it's worth being accounted for, and the only way i would have to believe to do it is to have a guy in a boat taking a temp reading mid lake. but there would be some sort of air temp. difference over the water, what that temp difference would be? don't have a clue.

    watchdrama8jm.gif
     
    #18
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bipod hop is most effectively neutralized with a rear bag having tall furry (bunny) ears. It works best during the spring equinox (around easter time).</div></div>



    .....i knew that.......
     
    #19
    Re: Across Water shots

    G, don't even get me started on golf balls. I've been trying to convince Berger to dimple bullets for years so we can capitalize on the superior aerodynamic performance enjoyed by the golfers. They tried it once but the first bullet got stuck in the die. I'm certain if we ever get it out and fire it, it will have a BC of 1.21 jigawatts. It's like the Excalibur sword from King Arthur's time.

    Top, you and your critical thinking...
    don't be a buzz kill.
     
    #20
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bipod hop is most effectively neutralized with a rear bag having tall furry (bunny) ears. It works best during the spring equinox (around easter time). </div></div>

    LMAO...
     
    #21
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">G, don't even get me started on golf balls. I've been trying to convince Berger to dimple bullets for years so we can capitalize on the superior aerodynamic performance enjoyed by the golfers. They tried it once but the first bullet got stuck in the die. I'm certain if we ever get it out and fire it, it will have a BC of 1.21 jigawatts. It's like the Excalibur sword from King Arthur's time.

    Top, you and your critical thinking...
    don't be a buzz kill. </div></div>

    I think the stale air in the barrel would have a negative effect on the dimpled bullets.I change the stale air to fresh before every shot so they might work great for me.
     
    #23
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigdaddy0381</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the stale air in the barrel would have a negative effect on the dimpled bullets.I change the stale air to fresh before every shot so they might work great for me. </div></div>

    you go big D.

    snap!
     
    #25
    Re: Across Water shots

    That's the 2nd time today I spit coffee out laughing from your posts...you're killing me! 1.21 jigawatts...LOL ..then LOL some more! Hmmm...now what about if you're hunting rare 3-spotted caribou in Yellowstone and your shot has to go over a large thermal lake at 85 degrees C?
     
    #27
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok i'll play along -

    don't hafta adjust if you are shooting BOAT tails -

    get it "boat" tails?

    water?

    boat?

    oh never mind...
    frown.gif
    </div></div>

    THATS the spirit!!
     
    #31
    Re: Across Water shots

    This enlightened conversation taught me why my bipod hops: it's pulled up by the gravitational force of the Moon! And during the day time - of the Sun, which is even stronger. That explains that huge jump! Nothing to do with my techniques.

    Now I feel much better!
    grin.gif
     
    #32
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So in the southern hemisphere its effect would be doubled then right? </div></div>

    No, in the souther hemisphere the bullet yaws to stardord and the effect still cancels out.
     
    #33
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So in the southern hemisphere its effect would be doubled then right? </div></div>

    No, in the souther hemisphere the bullet yaws to stardord and the effect still cancels out. </div></div>

    would a reverse twist still have the same results.
     
    #34
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    There seems to be some kind of van der Waal's attraction </div></div>

    LMFAO...I just caught this and now totally lost it... I can still quote the vdW equation from my crack nucleation work in grad school
     
    #35
    Re: Across Water shots

    Are we talking high tide or low tide here?

    Wow... I only thought these threads showed up in Over 1000 yds.
    wink.gif


    Must be a full moon. Which would also have a small but measurable influence.

    John

    <span style="font-weight: bold">EDIT:</span> Just saw Bryan covered that! Damn.
     
    #38
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok i'll play along -

    don't hafta adjust if you are shooting BOAT tails -

    get it "boat" tails?

    water?

    boat?

    oh never mind...
    frown.gif
    </div></div>

    If you wax your boattails they will cut thru the humidity better. It could take up to 1/2 Minute of fish (MOF) off your shots.
     
    #39
    Re: Across Water shots

    I did a lot of shooting off of a bridge wing, but never from land over water and back to land! Hummm! Good question! But the humidity in the air was never as big a factor as a 30+ knot crosswind dropping to 15 knots true. LOL! Go shoot it an let me know! Wait one! Mark Richt doesn't live on a lake does he? Wouldn't want to advocate hiring a real football coach!
     
    #40
    Re: Across Water shots

    Camp Smith National Guard rifle range, Peekskill, New York.
    Water between 200 yard line and the berm.
    View300.jpg


    I understand the 600-yard line has only been "Cleaned" (possible score 200 of 200) once.
     
    #41
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigdaddy0381</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you’re shooting across water from a stationary platform to a stationary target would you use the same dope and take the shot as if you were shooting across land?

    Example, a 900 yard shot! First 100 across land, 750 across water and 50 land to target. No wind. Would the drop stay the same? Or would you need to calculate for more humidity?
    </div></div>
    The legit answer is no, dope is the same.



    But to be all tactical you need to put the pointy end of the bullet in the case and the boat-tail out side when reloading specifically for over water shots ex. boat-tail towards the muzzle.
    (everyone know you face towards the back of the boat when you row it, the bullet needs the same)


    Also since scope makers don't make a polorization filter for them here is what you do.
    1. go buy a $80 pair( or most expensive they have) of panty-hose in the largest size they have.
    2. cut the crotch out and wrap it over the rear lense of your scope
    (this will filter the vapors that are floating over the water that you are seeing out of the scope so you will see the target very clearly and not have a mirage-y sight picture)
    3. if after a while you smell something funny, remove the makeshift filter and get a new pair of panty hose that has not been worn.
    4. worn p-hose reduce the effectiveness of the make shift filter and are distracting.
    5. if you buy the smallest pair of expensive hose and they smell nice, discard immediatly because the 'phermones' will negatively effect your shooting.
     
    #42
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ida83704</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigdaddy0381</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you’re shooting across water from a stationary platform to a stationary target would you use the same dope and take the shot as if you were shooting across land?

    Example, a 900 yard shot! First 100 across land, 750 across water and 50 land to target. No wind. Would the drop stay the same? Or would you need to calculate for more humidity?
    </div></div>
    The legit answer is no, dope is the same.



    But to be all tactical you need to put the pointy end of the bullet in the case and the boat-tail out side when reloading specifically for over water shots ex. boat-tail towards the muzzle.
    (everyone know you face towards the back of the boat when you row it, the bullet needs the same)


    Also since scope makers don't make a polorization filter for them here is what you do.
    1. go buy a $80 pair( or most expensive they have) of panty-hose in the largest size they have.
    2. cut the crotch out and wrap it over the rear lense of your scope
    (this will filter the vapors that are floating over the water that you are seeing out of the scope so you will see the target very clearly and not have a mirage-y sight picture)
    3. if after a while you smell something funny, remove the makeshift filter and get a new pair of panty hose that has not been worn.
    4. worn p-hose reduce the effectiveness of the make shift filter and are distracting.
    5. if you buy the smallest pair of expensive hose and they smell nice, discard immediatly because the 'phermones' will negatively effect your shooting.

    </div></div>

    OK FM all over my keyboard...
    laugh.gif


    John
     
    #43
    Re: Across Water shots

    hahahaha! I can't breathe! This is the funniest thing I've read in a looooong time! And to the OP, way to jump right in and play along! I feel like I've witnessed a historic thread today. Gugubica is right on the money!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This thread is:


    Out

    Fucking

    Standing </div></div>
     
    #44
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Robot Doc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did a lot of shooting off of a bridge wing, but never from land over water and back to land! Hummm! Good question! But the humidity in the air was never as big a factor as a 30+ knot crosswind dropping to 15 knots true. LOL! Go shoot it an let me know! Wait one! <span style="color: #FF0000">Mark Richt</span> doesn't live on a lake does he? Wouldn't want to advocate hiring a real football coach! </div></div>

    To Hell with him and his team, go Tech
     
    #45
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ida83704</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigdaddy0381</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you’re shooting across water from a stationary platform to a stationary target would you use the same dope and take the shot as if you were shooting across land?

    Example, a 900 yard shot! First 100 across land, 750 across water and 50 land to target. No wind. Would the drop stay the same? Or would you need to calculate for more humidity?
    </div></div>
    The legit answer is no, dope is the same.



    But to be all tactical you need to put the pointy end of the bullet in the case and the boat-tail out side when reloading specifically for over water shots ex. boat-tail towards the muzzle.
    (everyone know you face towards the back of the boat when you row it, the bullet needs the same)


    Also since scope makers don't make a polorization filter for them here is what you do.
    1. go buy a $80 pair( or most expensive they have) of panty-hose in the largest size they have.
    2. cut the crotch out and wrap it over the rear lense of your scope
    (this will filter the vapors that are floating over the water that you are seeing out of the scope so you will see the target very clearly and not have a mirage-y sight picture)
    3. if after a while you smell something funny, remove the makeshift filter and get a new pair of panty hose that has not been worn.
    4. worn p-hose reduce the effectiveness of the make shift filter and are distracting.
    5. if you buy the smallest pair of expensive hose and they smell nice, discard immediatly because the 'phermones' will negatively effect your shooting.

    </div></div>

    It was all fun and games untill a man starts telling another man the in's and out of P-hose.. I'm not saying,Just saying!! Noone is judging you.


    reversing the bullet in the case would then cause a Fire wedge when fired in the barrel. This would cause premature barrle wear.If I do try this should I uniform all the meplat's on the bullets?
     
    #50
    Re: Across Water shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh oh.......seems i'll be on the range on this day.....being its a mathmatical event.....i wonder how this would effect the flight of my boolit ?

    ....a solstice-eclipse overlap......

    http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/Solstice+eclipse+first+years/3983582/story.html



    </div></div>



    It will not help or hurt your shooting but it will let you have 4.3 (MOB) minute of beer in a sitting with no ill affects or sideways walking.
     
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