Understood. In real life situations, doing math is typically useless. In less than real life scenarios, such as shooting service rifle at a known distance of 600 yards with aperture sights (no reticle to use as a ruler), the math is pretty easy and becomes second nature. You get feedback based upon where your round hit the target and adjust as appropriate. Having a reticle is a welcomed luxury.
Rifle Scopes Adapting to First Mil Scope
- Thread starter Packfan
- Start date
Actually no. As I mentioned before I shot service rifle with irons for several years and never once gave a shit about inches between center X and POI.
All the data books I ever used had an MOA grid overlaid on the target image for plotting shots and keeping track of zeroes.
I didn't take me long to realize that it was very convenient to memorize the size of the important scoring rings in MOA since the rear sight adjusted in .25 moa increments.
The "ruler" was first the grid on the plot sheet, then it became the target itself as I memorized the ring dimensions in MOA.
Got it. I also had similar data books, but your thinking was probably a step ahead of mine.
It was just so obvious.......at least the way my brain is wired.
Like I said, I had zero trouble adapting to mils because of that. Even to this day I have mil/mil scopes, MOA scopes with BDC reticles, MOA red dot sights on rifles and pistols, and MOA scopes with duplex reticles; and I manage to not get confused about how to use any of them.
Some are even zeroed beyond 100 yards.......................
Heretic!Some are even zeroed beyond 100 yards.......................
Why is it we all get our mind twisted thinking moa vs mil
Then it hit me one day... Does It really matter at all.. literally at all
We never give ourselves a headache between different calibers with same measurement scales... Just moa vs mil
8mil to 1k
8moa to 500
30moa to 1k
30mil to 500
All the above can be true of various Calibers we own, But we only get hung up on if it's moa or mil...
When you read the above did you even know if it was yards or meters? What difference did it make?
What if I just put
8 to 1k
8 to 500
30 to 1k
30 to 500
As long as you have the right data for the set up you are shooting does it matter either way?
Conclusion is you either have to memorize or have reference for drop, distance, and wind compared to a standard
Correction in... Mil, minutes, iphy, degrees... Doesn't matter as long as you know how many
Per
Distance in... Meters, yards, ft, inches, rubber snakes, revolutions of truck tire, steps... Doesn't matter as long as you have dope for the measurements
And hold
Wind in... Fps, fpm, mps, mph, grass leaning degree, wind flag at angle, angle of falling bird crap... Doesn't matter as long as you know how much correction unit to use per wind unit
I'm finally starting to realize we overthink things.
Then it hit me one day... Does It really matter at all.. literally at all
We never give ourselves a headache between different calibers with same measurement scales... Just moa vs mil
8mil to 1k
8moa to 500
30moa to 1k
30mil to 500
All the above can be true of various Calibers we own, But we only get hung up on if it's moa or mil...
When you read the above did you even know if it was yards or meters? What difference did it make?
What if I just put
8 to 1k
8 to 500
30 to 1k
30 to 500
As long as you have the right data for the set up you are shooting does it matter either way?
Conclusion is you either have to memorize or have reference for drop, distance, and wind compared to a standard
Correction in... Mil, minutes, iphy, degrees... Doesn't matter as long as you know how many
Per
Distance in... Meters, yards, ft, inches, rubber snakes, revolutions of truck tire, steps... Doesn't matter as long as you have dope for the measurements
And hold
Wind in... Fps, fpm, mps, mph, grass leaning degree, wind flag at angle, angle of falling bird crap... Doesn't matter as long as you know how much correction unit to use per wind unit
I'm finally starting to realize we overthink things.
Checking back on this thread like
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I've heard it said that a competent shooter will be versatile in both mil AND moa.
I only shoot moa except for cheap mil scopes with which I ignored the mil and just used the crosshairs.
Does this make me a sh*tty shooter???
Whatever. I'm always having a blast.
I look back at my first m scope and after watching a shitload of you tube videos, buying a mildot master and shooting weekly 1-2/week helps learn fast.
I love how people think they need to "learn" to use mils.
Buncha retards.
Buncha retards.
The people who say that don't know how to use MOA either. Or said a better way, they don't have a conceptual understanding of what they are doing.
It's self evident that if one doesn't know how to measure angles in radians, one doesn't know how to measure them in degrees either.
It's because those who get their minds twisted around this do not really understand the concepts behind the use of angles to adjust trajectory.
They have memorized what they've been told (often memorizing incorrect information) and lack a fundamental understanding of the concepts, so can't think their way through this.
Most often it's ignorance which is fixable. But every now and then someone stupid shows up, he's unteachable.
People think there is a bunch of black magic surrounding the reticles. Most of that is because people have spouted the 1 MOA = 1" @ 100 for years. It fools people into believing that MOA is some kind of unit of length rather than an angular measurement
I was at the Whittington Center shooting a few years back and a guy showed up with a Nightforce that had a mildot reticle. He said that he had to have a 100 Meter range to zero the reticle because it was metric.
I shoot mainly moa scopes and when I do, I only use the 1.047@ 100yds. rule, when I'm sighting in at 100 for zero(or count the "squares"). After that, I use the ret. as long as I can see my hits/misses. Most of the time I can't see (at longer distances)my misses or hits, b/c, I shoot "whiffle" bullets and they don't leave much of a trail or hole. Can't help it, I am a poor. Mac
. MacI have found this to be the basic confusion over the years. METRIC
I have both MIL and MOA scopes in the herd. I once had an IPHY scope but it was stolen, along with a few other things. Thankfully, it was not on the old rifle at the time and laying in the back seat. They all work and all work similarly.
Back to metric bullshit...as I said over and over and over....it's 1/1000 of whatever unit used so if you are using guwders as units of measure, 1 guwder subtends EXACTLY 1 mil at 1000 guwders.
I like how the Russians calculate mils by dividing the full circle into 6000 pieces. It eliminates the use of pi and its non-repeating decimal that can never be 100% equally divided. The Russians use the radius to develop an equilateral (and, therefor, equiangular...60-60-60) triangle. 6 of those laid against each other fit perfectly inside the circle, no rounding required.
I like it when things are exact rather than rounded.
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I go to the range to check zero and shoot at the 100 yard line. We don't have meters. We don't need meters. We don't need no stinking meters. I use a lead sled to help eliminate me from the goings on. I aim at a particular spot and fire the rifle. I then adjust the the lead sled so that the crosshairs are exactly on the aiming spot. Then, being very careful to not move my setup at all, I adjust the scope dials until the crosshairs are exactly on the point of impact. Done...but verify at more range.I shoot mainly moa scopes and when I do, I only use the 1.047@ 100yds. rule, when I'm sighting in at 100 for zero(or count the "squares"). After that, I use the ret. as long as I can see my hits/misses. Most of the time I can't see (at longer distances)my misses or hits, b/c, I shoot "whiffle" bullets and they don't leave much of a trail or hole. Can't help it, I am a poor
I'm a simple kinda guy. My rifle(s) are equipped w/Bi-pods, and I use a rear bag, that's it.
99% of the time, after the Bore-sighting process, I'm within 2 clicks up/down/right/left.
Everyone has their way to do things. The least amount crap I've got to haul around, the better I like it.
When I do my 600 yard matches, some of the competitors have sooo much sh^# on their benches, I don't know how they get comfortable behind the gun. Mac
Yep....each of mine has its own bipod but I do swap around a couple different bags. I don't do matches but I do hunt and I try to not be carrying a bunch of shtuff I don't need, generally not even a bipod because it's a rare occasion that I can actually use one. Use the pack, or a tree...been resisting the tripod urge.I'm a simple kinda guy. My rifle(s) are equipped w/Bi-pods, and I use a rear bag, that's it.
99% of the time, after the Bore-sighting process, I'm within 2 clicks up/down/right/left.
Everyone has their way to do things. The least amount crap I've got to haul around, the better I like it.
When I do my 600 yard matches, some of the competitors have sooo much sh^# on their benches, I don't know how they get comfortable behind the gun. Mac
I never used a Bi-pod, until I got my first Precision gas-gun. Never used one on my deer/elk rifles either(was a long time ago and wouldn't been able to squeeze one into a saddle rifle scabbard anyways). Mac
I meant to also say that I USUALLY use the lead sled when I am doing load development, just to take me mostly out of the equation. Then, once I have THE load, I use that lead sled again to get a good zero. Our club has them available but I sometimes take mine. When I'm doing all that sorta thing, I have a collapsible wagon that comes in real handy to get it all to the bench in one trip.
Enough going on in this thread without bringing in lead sleds. LOL
It's a MIL lead sled, so it has the little marks in metric. I can't even use it with my MOA scoped rifles.
You need to learn to use your squirrel testicles more effectively.
OoK just to throw another monkey in the wrench what if someone is using a Second Focal Plane scope at less than full power. Then all the "just use the reticle" stuff goes out the window for zeroing the scope..........
Nope. You can use it at half power and adjust reading. Can still be done.
Doesnt have to be half, that’s just the easiest way to scale it quickly in your head. And not all of them sub tend at top mag, so you need to know where it does subtend as written.
The reticle sub tends as indicated at a certain magnification in a second focal plane scope.
If a scope sub tends at 10x and you read 2 mils when viewed at 10x then at 20x you would have it so that 2 mil indication would actually only be 1 mil. If it reads 2 mils at 5x then it would actually indicate 4 mils. Twice the magnification, half the reading. Half the magnification, twice the reading.
If you want to hold for corrections then you don’t need to scale anything no matter the magnification so long as you don’t change magnification, that scaling is only if you want to use your reticle to dial in the proper adjustment with a sfp scope.
But that’s not learning mils, that’s just scaling for magnification. You can see why we are going to ffp for long range stuff these days. You just have to dial what you see.
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You can zero wherever you would like to zero, but you would need to know what magnification the reticle is equal or 1:1, and then adjust the scale as you zoom in and out.
It complicates things a little but is still very doable.
hey OP, did anyone talk to you about wind yet? I guess someone had come up with a decent way about it with MOA but Ive been loving how wind has worked in Mils. Frank has talked about it a lot on the podcast and i think there are some threads about it.
all youve gotta do is find out what MPH (gasp, imperial linear measurment) your gun is. you can do this on your BC calculator by just changing the wind value till you find the magic number or just use the first number of your G1 BC.
when you have the right MPH then it should make your wind calls pretty simple ans fast. like this
@ X MPH
.1 Mil @100
.2 Mil @ 200
.3 Mil @ 300
.4 Mil @ 400
.5 Mil @ 500
.6 Mil @ 600
.7 Mil @ 700
it usually starts to change around 8/900 mark. yards or meters shouldnt matter, its just a fast aproximation but a great starting point.
if wind is twice as fast you just double the number.
all youve gotta do is find out what MPH (gasp, imperial linear measurment) your gun is. you can do this on your BC calculator by just changing the wind value till you find the magic number or just use the first number of your G1 BC.
when you have the right MPH then it should make your wind calls pretty simple ans fast. like this
@ X MPH
.1 Mil @100
.2 Mil @ 200
.3 Mil @ 300
.4 Mil @ 400
.5 Mil @ 500
.6 Mil @ 600
.7 Mil @ 700
it usually starts to change around 8/900 mark. yards or meters shouldnt matter, its just a fast aproximation but a great starting point.
if wind is twice as fast you just double the number.
I shot service rifle with M1, MK2-1, M14 and M16. My Creedmoor, Champion Choice or Champion Shooter Supply Data books from the late 80s and early to mid-90s have the grids on targets. Early on, I used to screw myself all up taking the marked shot/group location, calculating distance to center-X then recalculate to 1/2moa clicks. What a retarded waste of time that was! That kind of over-thinking a problem kept me in EX class too long. Once a certain SGM smacked me on the back of my head and told me to stop doing math and do what the paper was already telling me, I would be much less rushed and relax more on the line. Made MA shortly after that light got turned on and Legged out.
Same applies to going to mils. I thought I would MOA all my scopes because that was what I was used to and knew M852/FGMM and MK262 come-ups from 200-1000 COLD. Thought I would keep my zero at 200 also. I was wrong. Only folks using MOA in significant numbers are F-class and LEO. MIL/MRAD has become much more common and really, the math doesn't belong in any practical application except reticle ranging, which is pretty impractical anymore with LRFs being so prevalent and affordable. Your ballistic apps all have selection to show MOA or MIL adjustments. Same apps will also give you a visual reticle with holdovers at each stadia line. Your dope card should show elevation settings in whatever that scope's turret adjustments are. Your windage should be the same as your preferred method, hold or dial. (Yes, there are still MIL/MOA scopes out there). As most of the truly experienced folks have said before, if your reticle matches your knobs, just measure and dial. It's as simple as that. You don't have to worry about using a spotting scope with no reticle and guessing location, your rifle scope will tell you all you need to know, as long as barrel or suppressor mirage doesn't screw you over.
My first exposure to practical optics was a Leupold M1A Ultra 10x on a Navy M14 DMR. MILDOT reticle and 1/4moa dials with no zero stop. We didn't have LRFs, so I learned the H(Tgt in yds)*1000/MILs = R(in yds). Use a NM wind rose taped to the side of the stock to dial windage. Was taught to zero at 300yds then used holdover/unders for 100, 200, 400, 500, 600 and 700. Windage was 5/10/15/20mph across the horizontal mils at 700 and you could just cut it in half for 400, between 400 and 700 was use the wind rose, 200-400 was use 1/2, inside 200 was shoot dead on. Pretty simple once you get used to it. We really expected any actual use to be inside of 200yds and at angles, so trained more in that direction, but still kept going further in our skill set. You can still apply similarly with the EBR-7 family (I have 3 AMGs with the original EBR-7), but you're 6.5cm, not 308, so the values change quite a bit.
The other big waste of time was plotting every shot in slow fire. While there are benefits to it in practice and training, there is zero upside and lots of downside to doing it during a match. The biggest downside, and the biggest reason to forget about it, is missing significant wind shifts and getting behind the conditions.
Once I stopped doing that shit, I had more time to wait out bad conditions, the ability to send shots as quickly as I got target service during favorable conditions, and often I got done a lot sooner without rushing which gave me more time relax and prep for the next stage of the course.
Just keep track of the beginning and ending zeroes and make some general notes about wind and sun.
Inaccurate. AKA, wrong.
My Nikon Buckmaster scopes don't Mil correctly at full power.
The 6-18 needs to be on something like 10X.
Not that I've ever used it for that, but that's the way it is folks...
Looks good and makes sense. I will work this up when I land on a load for the new rifle.
I am out of 6.5CM reloading supplies so I am limited to some Hornady American Gunner 140's (I bought 2 of the 200 round bulk packs before the madness started) and a limited supply of Hornady 140 ELD-M's. I lucked out an found some ELD-M's on the shelf at Sheels the other day and snagged 100 rounds, so I have a few more to work with.
I am usually not bad with my wind calls. Shooting a .223 service rifle at 600 yards in the west is good practice. This will help simplify things.
Initially, I was just going to stick with MOA as that is what I was used to from years of hunting, service rifle comp, and some FTR F-Class. I was just going to adapt to the Mil based language, wind calls, etc. It wasn't until I got on this site that I realized Mil is the way to go and that it can co-exist with my existing stable of MOA scopes.
Yeah Rob I know that but since this was started by a new Mil shooter I thought I'd throw this out there just to make heads spin.
Depends on the scope.
Something like the Nightforce nxs
5.5-22, the reticle is correct at 11 power so at 5.5 power every mil is actually 2, 11 is 1 and at 22 power is 0.5.
Same with the 6-24 series of sfp hensoldts. 6 = 2, 12 is correct, 24 = 0.5.
So the old basic mildot actually has .5 mil holds at max power.
The people that designed the older series scopes were pretty smart really, But to get the most out of the optics seems to require more user knowledge.
Is that sorta like that "2 is one and 1 is none" shit you see on the cool movies?
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